If/when Islam becomes the dominant religion of the West

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"However, the dhimmi itself is a controversial subject. This word actually means “protégé” or “protected person.” This is one of the arguments of the modern defenders of Islam: the dhimmi has never been persecuted or maltreated (except accidentally); on the contrary, he was a protected person. What better example could illustrate Islam’s liberalism. Here are people who do not accept Islam and, instead of being expelled, they are protected. I have read a great deal of literature attempting to prove that no society or religion has been so tolerant as Islam or has protected or has protected its minorities so well. Naturally, this argument has been used to condemn medieval Christianity (which I have no intention of defending), on the ground that Islam never knew an Inquisition or “witch hunts.” Even if this dubious argument is accepted, let us confine ourselves to an examination of the meaning of the term protected person. One must ask: “protected against whom?” When this “stranger” lives in Islamic countries, the answer can only be: against the Muslims themselves. The point that must be clearly understood is that the very term protégé implies a latent hostility. A similar institution existed in early Rome, where the cliens, the stranger, was always the enemy. He had to be treated as an enemy even if there was no situation of war. But if this stranger obtained the favor of the head of some great family, he became his protégé (cliens) and was then able to reside in Rome: he was “protected” by his “patron” from the acts of aggression that any Roman citizen could commit against him. This also meant that in reality the protected person had no genuine rights. The reader of this book will see that the dhimmi’s condition was defined by a treaty (dhimma) between him (or his group) and a Muslim group. This treaty had a juridical aspect, but was what we would call an unequal contract: the dhimma was a “concessionary charter” (cf. C. Chehata on Muslim law), something that implies two consequences. The first is that the person who concedes the charter can equally well rescind it. It is not, in fact, a contract representing a “consensus” arrived at between the two sides. On the contrary, it is quite arbitrary. The person who grants the treaty is the only one who decides what he is prepared to concede (hence the great variety of conditions). The second is that the resulting situation is the opposite of the one envisaged in the theory of the “rights of man” whereby, by the mere fact of being a human being, one is endowed * automatically with certain rights and those who fail to respect them are at fault. In the case of the “concessionary charter,” on the contrary, one enjoys rights only to the extent that they are recognized in the charter and only for as long as it remains valid.* As a person, by the mere fact of one’s “existence,” one has no claim to any rights. And this, indeed, is the dhimmi’s * condition.* As I have explained above, this condition is unvarying throughout the course of history; it is not the result of social chance, but a rooted concept.

For the conquering Islam of today, those who do not claim to be Muslims do not have any human rights recognized as such…"

(bold emphasis mine)
Taken from the preface mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/Preface.html of
‘The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam’ by Bat Ye’or mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/Dhimmi.html online.

The preface mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/Preface.html is by Jacques Ellul.

Jacques ELLUL died in 1994 at 82. A jurist, historian, theologian and sociologist, he published more than 600 articles and 48 books, many of which were translated into a dozen languages (more than 20 into English). From 1950-70 he was a member of the National Council of the Protestant Reformed Church of France. Professor at the University of Bordeaux, his oeuvre includes studies on medieval European institutions, the effect of modern technology on contemporary society, and moral theology. In American academic circles, he was widely known for “The Technological Society” written in the 1950’s (English edition, 1964) and recognized as one of the most prominent of contemporary thinkers.
 
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StMarkEofE:
You know that is so much garbage its pathetic. Yes, as a Muslim you get to reap the benefits of a Muslim state but if you are an “infidel” you are either persecuted, taxed to death, treated less than a second class citizen and restricts you form of worship. So, dont give me the line that its all wonderful under Crescent. I see the middle east and the way the people live there and I dont want any part it. And as far as freedom—you can kiss it goodbye.
Great post! My sentiments exactly!👍

Vickie
 
Quran:

Sura 9:29 (from 3 translations)

[Sura 9:29] **Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger ** have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[Yusufali 9:29] **Fight those who believe not in Allah ** nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

[Pickthal 9:29] **Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah ** nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

Hadith:


Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0033:
“It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.”

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 80:
‘Narrated Abu Huraira:
“The Verse:–“You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind.” means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam.”’

[note: The verse it is referring to is Sura 3:110 in the Quran]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
'Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

Allah’s Apostle said: “I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah.”’

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:
'Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ and whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,’ his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"’

Sahih Muslim Book 019, Number 4294:
“It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that **when the Messenger of Allah ** (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai’ except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah’s help and fight them…”
 
gurrato alaien:
The Islamic state may not interfere with the personal rights of non-Muslims, who have full freedom of conscience and belief and are at liberty to perform their religious rites and ceremonies in their own way.

Even if a non-Muslim state oppresses its Muslim citizens, it is not permissible for an Islamic state to retaliate against its own non-Muslim citizens. It may not unjustly shed the blood of a single non-Muslim citizen living within its boundaries.

Peace.
So, as a Buddhist, I can sit at home or go to my nearest Buddhist temple and perform my Buddhist religious rites? This sounds good in theory based on what you have written. But, what about the parts of the Koran that seem to contradict what you are saying?

Let me quote some of them and see if you can help me sort this out, will you?

Here goes…

Here are a few examples from the Quran and the Hadith

Quran:

Sura 9:29 (from 3 translations)

[Shakir 9:29] **Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger **have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

[Yusufali 9:29] **Fight those who believe not in Allah **nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

[Pickthal 9:29] **Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah **nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
 
What is the punishment for someone who leaves Islam, according to Islam? Death!

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
“Narrated Abu Burda:
Abu Musa said… Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers…”

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
"Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:
“Narrated 'Ali:
Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah’s Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.”
 
I bet the Nazis got the ideas for their Nuremberg laws from Sharia Law…Laws handed down by one persecutor to another!

Islamofascism will be defeated…But millions will probably die in the process…
 
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Anglican77:
I would imagine we would all become Buddhists or Hindu before Muslim.
well, I suppose I wouldn’t complain about the growth of these religions 😃 . I’m curious though as to why you believe this could be the case. I admit Buddhism is growing in the states, but it’s growth seems limited compared to other religions. I’m not arguing, just want to see if you clarify this.

Peace…
 
Dear all, actually the problem is that you have quoted some verses and interpreted out of context, some verses revealed in specific cases such as battles, so in order to understand how Islam is dealing with other please read the following verses:

60:8. Allâh does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allâh loves those who deal with equity.

60:9. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allâh forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers those who disobey Allâh).

2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

(16:125): “Invite mankind to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.”

29:46. And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims).”
 
Let’s put it this way, if I wasn’t a Christian, and if I had a choice between converting to Islam or Scientology, I’d pic Hubbard’s people of Mohammed…At least they are crazy without all of the violence.

🙂
 
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bjd2006pc:
Islamofascism will be defeated…But millions will probably die in the process…
I believe you are right. I don’t believe Islam would ever become the dominant religion. Even if it became the dominant religion, I believe secularism would politically have the upper hand. And, in the end, many, many people will be lost. It’s too bad it might turn out this way.

Peace…
 
gurrato alaien:
Dear all, actually the problem is that you have quoted some verses and interpreted out of context, some verses revealed in specific cases such as battles, so in order to understand how Islam is dealing with other please read the following verses:

60:8. Allâh does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allâh loves those who deal with equity.

60:9. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allâh forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zâlimûn (wrong-doers those who disobey Allâh).

2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

(16:125): “Invite mankind to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.”

29:46. And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islâmic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): “We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilâh (God) and your Ilâh (God) is One (i.e. Allâh), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims).”
So, as a Buddhist, I can sit at home or go to my nearest Buddhist temple and perform my Buddhist religious rites? This sounds good in theory based on what you have written. But, what about the parts of the Koran that seem to contradict what you are saying?

I asked this before and would like an answer please.

If I live peacefully and do not disobey your laws and practice my own faith - the state would leave me alone? Is that true? On your word as a follower of Allah and His prophet Mohammed?

Peace…
 
gurrato alaien said:
2:190 Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

do not transgress the limits? what are the limits according to Islam? because in my opinion, what the the Quran and Hadith teaches, in my above quotes, are clearly transgressing the limits! but obviously, according to Islam, they are not. according to Islam, anyone who leaves Islam is to be killed, according to Islam, Muslims must fight non-Muslims etc

what are you going to say next? that according to Islam, Muslims are not allowed to kill one innocent person? if so, who is innocent according to Islam? obviously, according to Islam, non-Muslims are not innocent
 
according to the Muslim jurist al-Mawardi (d. 1058), Shafi’i jusrist of Baghdad, author of important treatise on constitutional law

Whoever converts from a Jewish to a Christian sect is not free to do so. According to the more correct of the two opinions he is obliged to become a Muslim.”
Taken from ‘The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam’ by Bat Ye’or (revised and enlarged english edition) p176
 
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ahimsaman72:
So, as a Buddhist, I can sit at home or go to my nearest Buddhist temple and perform my Buddhist religious rites? This sounds good in theory based on what you have written. But, what about the parts of the Koran that seem to contradict what you are saying?

I asked this before and would like an answer please.

If I live peacefully and do not disobey your laws and practice my own faith - the state would leave me alone? Is that true? On your word as a follower of Allah and His prophet Mohammed?

Peace…
Yes brother if you are in Islamic State and among the harmless minority so you are free to practice your religious rites as far as you don’t offense Islam such as recently the offensive drowning cartoon cartoon in the name of freedom speech or drink alcohol front of the people .…
 
“Yes brother if you are in Islamic State and among the harmless minority”

Who determines what is harmless?
 
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discipleofJesus:
do not transgress the limits? what are the limits according to Islam? because in my opinion, my quotes from the Quran and Hadith above are clearly transgressing the limits! but obviously, according to Islam, they are not. according to Islam, anyone who leaves Islam is to be killed, according to Islam, Muslims must fight non-Muslims etc
This due to the translation here another translation:

002.190
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
 
gurrato alaien:
Yes brother if you are in Islamic State and among the harmless minority so you are free to practice your religious rites as far as you don’t offense Islam such as recently the offensive drowning cartoon cartoon in the name of freedom speech or drink alcohol front of the people .…
My Buddhist vows are the following:
  1. No killing
  2. No stealing
  3. No sexual misconduct
  4. No falsh or harsh speech
  5. No drinking intoxicants
So, I’m not much of a threat to the Islamic way of life. I would not defame the Prophet Muhammed, Allah or any others. Although I practice my rites at home, I would like the opportunity to go to my religious temples. These temples have statues of the Buddha. And, I might have a statue of the Buddha at my home altar.

Does your religion/state permit such? I ask again because I have seen Buddha statues destroyed in Afghanistan.

Thank you for your answers.

Peace…
 
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ahimsaman72:
My Buddhist vows are the following:
  1. No killing
  2. No stealing
  3. No sexual misconduct
  4. No falsh or harsh speech
  5. No drinking intoxicants
So, I’m not much of a threat to the Islamic way of life. I would not defame the Prophet Muhammed, Allah or any others. Although I practice my rites at home, I would like the opportunity to go to my religious temples. These temples have statues of the Buddha. And, I might have a statue of the Buddha at my home altar.

Does your religion/state permit such? I ask again because I have seen Buddha statues destroyed in Afghanistan.

Thank you for your answers.

Peace…
You dont have to be a threat to Islam all you have to be is different.
 
gurrato alaien:
This due to the translation here another translation:

002.190
PICKTHAL: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

YUSUFALI: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

SHAKIR: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
This reminds me of **Faith101 ** saying “There is no compulsion in religion” (which is what the Quran states in Sura 2:256). Here is what I replied when Faith101 said this:
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discipleofJesus:
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Faith101:
There is no compulsion in religion. YOu can not be “forced to convert” …that would just be like creating a whole bunch of hypocrites…hypocrites, like disbelievers, are in hell…so there would really be no point forcing someone to convert.
Oh really no compulsion in religion? Wow thanks, i’m convinced now. :rolleyes:

Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0033:
“It has been narrated on the authority of Abdullah b. 'Umar that the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.”

Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 80:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
“The Verse:–“You (true Muslims) are the best of peoples ever raised up for mankind.” means, the best of peoples for the people, as you bring them with chains on their necks till they embrace Islam.”

The verse it is referring to is Sura 3:110 in the Quran

What is the punishment for someone who leaves Islam, according to Islam? Death!

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
“Narrated Abu Burda:
Abu Musa said… Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers…”

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
"Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’”

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 64:
“Narrated 'Ali:
Whenever I tell you a narration from Allah’s Apostle, by Allah, I would rather fall down from the sky than ascribe a false statement to him, but if I tell you something between me and you (not a Hadith) then it was indeed a trick (i.e., I may say things just to cheat my enemy). No doubt I heard Allah’s Apostle saying, “During the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words but their faith will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have no faith) and will go out from (leave) their religion as an arrow goes out of the game. So, where-ever you find them, kill them, for who-ever kills them shall have reward on the Day of Resurrection.”

No compulsion in religion ay? :rolleyes:
 
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StMarkEofE:
You dont have to be a threat to Islam all you have to be is different.
That may or may not be true, but I wanted to hear it straight from him on his word as a Muslim who is bound to be honest or he disgraces his faith.

Peace…
 
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