If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 2

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The Anglican Communion *had *Apostolic Succession. However, the Anglicans have made it clear through there intent of ordinations, including the ordination of women, and in the intercommunion with faiths that do not have valid orders, that they no longer care for the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Therefore, as “Apostolicae Curae” states, your sacraments are not valid.
Apostolicae Curae is a Roman idea. We do not accept the Pope authority or infalibilty as you do. Again the answer you give me is the Pope said so. Do you worship God or the Pope? If Popes are infalible, why did it take a thousand years to figure it out? If Popes are infalible, why did they kill thousands simply because someone did not believe the Roman Catholic Religion? If you where living in the time of the inquisition I suppose that you would be one who would go along with it, because after all the Pope said these people should die. If you say that you would not go along with the killing, then you would be labeled a Protestant.

Name a time when a Protestant denomination ever killed so many Roman Catholics.

If you study the Early Church, the true Catholic Church, you will discover that women clergy are nothing new.
 
I think you should take the time to read the writings of the early church fathers and not just read over them but study and contemplate them you will have a whole different view on different matters.try www.earlychristianwritings.com a good place to start. these writings could give a corrupted view if you take them out of context [a common problem] but if you really study them you will see the ECF adressed all the problems the Church faced and is facing and all the teaching errors that have and are creeping into the Church
 
Apostolicae Curae is a Roman idea. We do not accept the Pope authority or infalibilty as you do. Again the answer you give me is the Pope said so. Do you worship God or the Pope? If Popes are infalible, why did it take a thousand years to figure it out? If Popes are infalible, why did they kill thousands simply because someone did not believe the Roman Catholic Religion? If you where living in the time of the inquisition I suppose that you would be one who would go along with it, because after all the Pope said these people should die. If you say that you would not go along with the killing, then you would be labeled a Protestant.

Name a time when a Protestant denomination ever killed so many Roman Catholics.

If you study the Early Church, the true Catholic Church, you will discover that women clergy are nothing new.
Also ask them to explain Acts where the Jerusalem Council is related. It seems James is the superior to Peter there, as he speaks the ruling regarding Gentiles, not Peter. And if Peter was so important, dont you think he would have had more exposure in Acts than Paul? Or more NT epistles?
 
Is the Anglican Communion corupt because of a King? No, so why do Roman Catholics bring it up. Catholic faith is the original church. The original church split three ways. Why do you RCs reject this?
The King wanted a male child and he did anything he wanted trying to get one and even after he did get one, he kept on doing just what He wanted. Yes things split off in many directions, but that doesn’t make it right nor did any of those ‘other directions’ keep the Apostolic Succession, except the Orthodox Church, (and if you notice, the Orthodox Church has NOT split into over 40,000 different denominations, each deciding for themselves what the Bible means. They have KEPT the Faith, and Apostolic Succession).
You need a real good lesson in TRUE HIstory.
I did NOT use the word “corrupt”, you did, I said invalid. I am sure the people are sincere but mistakem in their belief.
 
June 18, 2004, 10:26 a.m.
The Real Inquisition
Investigating the popular myth.

By Thomas F. Madden
When the sins of the Catholic Church are recited (as they so often are) the Inquisition figures prominently. People with no interest in European history know full well that it was led by brutal and fanatical churchmen who tortured, maimed, and killed those who dared question the authority of the Church. The word “Inquisition” is part of our modern vocabulary, describing both an institution and a period of time. Having one of your hearings referred to as an “Inquisition” is not a compliment for most senators.

But in recent years the Inquisition has been subject to greater investigation. In preparation for the Jubilee in 2000, Pope John Paul II wanted to find out just what happened during the time of the Inquisition’s (the institution’s) existence. In 1998 the Vatican opened the archives of the Holy Office (the modern successor to the Inquisition) to a team of 30 scholars from around the world. Now at last the scholars have made their report, an 800-page tome that was unveiled at a press conference in Rome on Tuesday. Its most startling conclusion is that the Inquisition was not so bad after all. Torture was rare and only about 1 percent of those brought before the Spanish Inquisition were actually executed. As one headline read “Vatican Downsizes Inquisition.”
The amazed gasps and cynical sneers that have greeted this report are just further evidence of the lamentable gulf that exists between professional historians and the general public. The truth is that, although this report makes use of previously unavailable material, it merely echoes what numerous scholars have previously learned from other European archives. Among the best recent books on the subject are Edward Peters’s Inquisition (1988) and Henry Kamen’s The Spanish Inquisition (1997), but there are others. Simply put, historians have long known that the popular view of the Inquisition is a myth. So what is the truth?
To understand the Inquisition we have to remember that the Middle Ages were, well, medieval. We should not expect people in the past to view the world and their place in it the way we do today. (You try living through the Black Death and see how it changes your attitude.) For people who lived during those times, religion was not something one did just at church. It was science, philosophy, politics, identity, and hope for salvation. It was not a personal preference but an abiding and universal truth. Heresy, then, struck at the heart of that truth. It doomed the heretic, endangered those near him, and tore apart the fabric of community.
The Inquisition was not born out of desire to crush diversity or oppress people; it was rather an attempt to stop unjust executions. Yes, you read that correctly. Heresy was a crime against the state. Roman law in the Code of Justinian made it a capital offense. Rulers, whose authority was believed to come from God, had no patience for heretics. Neither did common people, who saw them as dangerous outsiders who would bring down divine wrath. When someone was accused of heresy in the early Middle Ages, they were brought to the local lord for judgment, just as if they had stolen a pig or damaged shrubbery (really, it was a serious crime in England). Yet in contrast to those crimes, it was not so easy to discern whether the accused was really a heretic. For starters, one needed some basic theological training — something most medieval lords sorely lacked. The result is that uncounted thousands across Europe were executed by secular authorities without fair trials or a competent assessment of the validity of the charge.
The Catholic Church’s response to this problem was the Inquisition, first instituted by Pope Lucius III in 1184. It was born out of a need to provide fair trials for accused heretics using laws of evidence and presided over by knowledgeable judges. From the perspective of secular authorities, heretics were traitors to God and the king and therefore deserved death. From the perspective of the Church, however, heretics were lost sheep who had strayed from the flock. As shepherds, the pope and bishops had a duty to bring them back into the fold, just as the Good Shepherd had commanded them. So, while medieval secular leaders were trying to safeguard their kingdoms, the Church was trying to save souls. The Inquisition provided a means for heretics to escape death and return to the community.
As this new report confirms, most people accused of heresy by the Inquisition were either acquitted or their sentences suspended. Those found guilty of grave error were allowed to confess their sin, do penance, and be restored to the Body of Christ. The underlying assumption of the Inquisition was that, like lost sheep, heretics had simply strayed. If, however, an inquisitor determined that a particular sheep had purposely left the flock, there was nothing more that could be done. Unrepentant or obstinate heretics were excommunicated and given over to secular authorities. Despite popular myth, the Inquisition did not burn heretics. It was the secular authorities that held heresy to be a capital offense, not the Church. The simple fact is that the medieval Inquisition saved uncounted thousands of innocent (and even not-so-innocent) people who would otherwise have been roasted by secular lords or mob rule.
During the 13th century the Inquisition became much more formalized in its methods and practices. Highly trained Dominicans answerable to the Pope took over the institution, creating courts that represented the best legal practices in Europe. As royal authority grew during the 14th century and beyond, control over the Inquisition slipped out of papal hands and into those of kings. Instead of one Inquisition there were now many. Despite the prospect of abuse, monarchs like those in Spain and France generally did their best to make certain that their inquisitions remained both efficient and merciful. During the 16th century, when the witch craze swept Europe, it was those areas with the best-developed inquisitions that stopped the hysteria in its tracks. In Spain and Italy, trained inquisitors investigated charges of witches’ sabbaths and baby roasting and found them to be baseless. Elsewhere, particularly in Germany, secular or religious courts burned witches by the thousands.
Compared to other medieval secular courts, the Inquisition was positively enlightened. Why then are people in general and the press in particular so surprised to discover that the Inquisition did not barbecue people by the millions? First of all, when most people think of the Inquisition today what they are really thinking of is the Spanish Inquisition. No, not even that is correct. They are thinking of the myth of the Spanish Inquisition. Amazingly, before 1530 the Spanish Inquisition was widely hailed as the best run, most humane court in Europe. There are actually records of convicts in Spain purposely blaspheming so that they could be transferred to the prisons of the Spanish Inquisition. After 1530, however, the Spanish Inquisition began to turn its attention to the new heresy of Lutheranism. It was the Protestant Reformation and the rivalries it spawned that would give birth to the myth.
By the mid 16th century, Spain was the wealthiest and most powerful country in Europe. Europe’s Protestant areas, including the Netherlands, northern Germany, and England, may not have been as militarily mighty, but they did have a potent new weapon: the printing press. Although the Spanish defeated Protestants on the battlefield, they would lose the propaganda war. These were the years when the famous “Black Legend” of Spain was forged. Innumerable books and pamphlets poured from northern presses accusing the Spanish Empire of inhuman depravity and horrible atrocities in the New World. Opulent Spain was cast as a place of darkness, ignorance, and evil.
Protestant propaganda that took aim at the Spanish Inquisition drew liberally from the Black Legend. But it had other sources as well. From the beginning of the Reformation, Protestants had difficulty explaining the 15-century gap between Christ’s institution of His Church and the founding of the Protestant churches. Catholics naturally pointed out this problem, accusing Protestants of having created a new church separate from that of Christ. Protestants countered that their church was the one created by Christ, but that it had been forced underground by the Catholic Church. Thus, just as the Roman Empire had persecuted Christians, so its successor, the Roman Catholic Church, continued to persecute them throughout the Middle Ages. Inconveniently, there were no Protestants in the Middle Ages, yet Protestant authors found them there anyway in the guise of various medieval heretics. In this light, the medieval Inquisition was nothing more than an attempt to crush the hidden, true church. The Spanish Inquisition, still active and extremely efficient at keeping Protestants out of Spain, was for Protestant writers merely the latest version of this persecution. Mix liberally with the Black Legend and you have everything you need to produce tract after tract about the hideous and cruel Spanish Inquisition. And so they did.
In time, Spain’s empire would fade away. Wealth and power shifted to the north, in particular to France and England. By the late 17th century new ideas of religious tolerance were bubbling across the coffeehouses and salons of Europe. Inquisitions, both Catholic and Protestant, withered. The Spanish stubbornly held on to theirs, and for that they were ridiculed. French philosophes like Voltaire saw in Spain a model of the Middle Ages: weak, barbaric, superstitious. The Spanish Inquisition, already established as a bloodthirsty tool of religious persecution, was derided by Enlightenment thinkers as a brutal weapon of intolerance and ignorance. A new, fictional Spanish Inquisition had been constructed, designed by the enemies of Spain and the Catholic Church.
Now a bit more of the real Inquisition has come back into view. The question remains, will anyone take notice?
— Thomas F. Madden is professor and chair of the department of history at Saint Louis University in St. Louis, Missouri. He is the author most recently of Enrico Dandolo and the Rise of Venice and editor of the forthcoming Crusades: The Illustrated History.

 
Also ask them to explain Acts where the Jerusalem Council is related. It seems James is the superior to Peter there, as he speaks the ruling regarding Gentiles, not Peter. And if Peter was so important, dont you think he would have had more exposure in Acts than Paul? Or more NT epistles?
It was in Antioch that the followers of Jesus Christ converted by Paul and Barnabas were first called Christians [Acts 11:26]. Antioch, especially after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, became a center for Christianity.

The first Bishop was St. Peter before his travels to Rome. The third Bishop was the Apostolic Father St. Ignatius of Antioch. Antioch became one of the five original Patriarchates
experiencefestival.com/a/Maronite_-_History/id/1748222
 
Read the Papal Bull, Apostolicae Cure (Sept.,13, 1896) which declared Anglican orders to be “absolutely null and void,” because of defect in (1) the form in the rite of ordaining and (2) the intention of the one ordaining.
I suspect to an Anglican, what the Pope says doesn’t matter very much, particularly in this case.
 
Thats all you are going to give me for a reply?! Because the Pope said so. Come on, of course he is going to say that. The two churches weren’t exactly getting along then. Why are they null and void? Thats what gets me, you take what the Pope says and don’t ask why.

Have you ever wondered how the bible was ever translated from Latin? Check out this link and see what the pope does to get back at John. Are you going to tell me this isn’t arogant. greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/

How about the Catholic Mass that wasn’t put into a language that the congregation could understand until the 1960’s. I’ll bet that people knew exactly what the Eucharist was about then. Ask a Catholic Priest why they ring bells during mass. He will tell you that during the time of Latin Mass it was to get the peoples attention to let them know something was about to happen.

The point I am trying to make is that the RC has a long history of not releasing all of the information. If you want to continue being in the dark, than so be it. I still respect you as a Christian. Please don’t judge me and see me as someone who is lacking wisdom. I like what was stated earlier. I believe that when we get to heaven there will be a lot of Christians from all different denominations. Not just Roman Catholics. Which makes me wonder, do you actually believe that you will only see Roman Catholics in heaven? Listen to what all denominations have to say and you will begin to know God more than you ever have.

I left the RC because I started asking why. I started to read the bible and referencing history.
Good response. 👍
 
Also ask them to explain Acts where the Jerusalem Council is related. It seems James is the superior to Peter there, as he speaks the ruling regarding Gentiles, not Peter. And if Peter was so important, dont you think he would have had more exposure in Acts than Paul? Or more NT epistles?
The problem with this is taking it out of context AGAIN, You read what you want and see what you want,. Try reading and studying the Sacred scriptures as a whole. Also I suggest you read the Faith of the Early Fathers by William A, Jurgens. IF your really interested in learning the TRUTH, get some Scott Haun tapes and writings. There are many ways to learn without having to spout out all those “OLD” tales that are so worn out you can see right thru them if you try.

Why do you think the Catholic Church has been here for 2,000 years, teaching the same TRUTHS as she always has, with the rest of the world going by, doing their own thing and messing things up for the human race. Look around, what has all this confusion done for us. Jesus prayed for one Church, one Faith, one LORD. The Christian world is hardly that. This anger and hatred is getting you nowhere. The Catholic Church stands tall and STRONG against all the evils of today,(and always has,). Jesus promised HIS Church would never error and He would be with HIS Church till the end of time, (the valid Holy Eucharist.) He sent the Holy Spirit to guide and protect HIS Church and He has and always will. The Catholic Church is here to stay in TRUTH and Holiness and nothing anyone says or does will ever change that. That doesn’t mean all Catholics are holy but the Church is here to try to make saints out of sinners. We All need that.
 
I suspect to an Anglican, what the Pope says doesn’t matter very much, particularly in this case.
I suspect your right, it didn’t matter to King Henry VIII what the Pope said and look where it got him and you.
 
The Anglican Communion has Apostolic Succession thru St. Augustine. The King broke the Church of England away from Rome, however the Bishop was head of the church.
Prove it!
Read the Papal Bull, Apostolicae Cure (Sept.,13, 1896) which declared Anglican orders to be “absolutely null and void,” because of defect in (1) the form in the rite of ordaining and (2) the intention of the one ordaining.
 
I suspect your right, it didn’t matter to King Henry VIII what the Pope said and look where it got him and you.
Um, I’m Catholic. I was just stating that you keep quoting the Pope as the authority, but to a non-Catholic, your points are irrelevant.
 
Prove it!
Read the Papal Bull, Apostolicae Cure (Sept.,13, 1896) which declared Anglican orders to be “absolutely null and void,” because of defect in (1) the form in the rite of ordaining and (2) the intention of the one ordaining.
There you go again, you keep quoting a Catholic document. To an Anglican, it carries no weight. Do you not understand?
 
Um, I’m Catholic. I was just stating that you keep quoting the Pope as the authority, but to a non-Catholic, your points are irrelevant.
Does that mean I am not to speak the TRUTH? He IS the authority that Christ Himself gave to all Christians, whether they believe it or not.
 
Does that mean I am not to speak the TRUTH? He IS the authority that Christ Himself gave to all Christians, whether they believe it or not.
He is THE authority to Catholics and Catholics only, not to non-Catholic Christians. To some non-Catholic Christians, he has been called the anti-Christ and a heretic. This isn’t true of course, but do you get my point? You can quote papal decrees all you want, but to a non-Catholic, you are wasting your breath.
 
There you go again, you keep quoting a Catholic document. To an Anglican, it carries no weight. Do you not understand?
They read all the garbage thats printed against the Catholic Church, why don’t they try reading some of the TRUTH. Like my mom always said, “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.”
I am just pointing out the fountain of TRUTH, its up to them what they do with it. DO you not understand???
 
He is THE authority to Catholics and Catholics only, not to non-Catholic Christians. To some non-Catholic Christians, he has been called the anti-Christ and a heretic. This isn’t true of course, but do you get my point? You can quote papal decrees all you want, but to a non-Catholic, you are wasting your breath.
I thought you said you were a Catholic, whose side are you on anyway?
It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks or says, but it does matter what CHRIST said and did. The Truth is the Truth if NO ONE believes it and a Lie is a Lie even if everyone believes it.

Why are they here on this forum if they aren’t seeking the truth? The problem is they are defending their misunderstandings about the Catholic Church instead of really seeking the truth. I believe deep down they KNOW that all this division is wrong and thats why they are in denial about the truth. Trying so hard to hang onto something that is rapidly slipping away from them. Just look at how weak the protestant denominations have become on so many moral truths. Abortion, Homosexuality, divorce and remarriage, birth control, to name some. While the Catholic Church stands strong against them all, in the TRUTH. The Pope IS the authority to alllll Christians whether they believe it or NOT. Jesus put him there, not me.
 
I thought you said you were a Catholic, whose side are you on anyway?
It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks or says, but it does matter what CHRIST said and did. The Truth is the Truth if NO ONE believes it and a Lie is a Lie even if everyone believes it.

Why are they here on this forum if they aren’t seeking the truth? The problem is they are defending their misunderstandings about the Catholic Church instead of really seeking the truth. I believe deep down they KNOW that all this division is wrong and thats why they are in denial about the truth. Trying so hard to hang onto something that is rapidly slipping away from them. Just look at how weak the protestant denominations have become on so many moral truths. Abortion, Homosexuality, divorce and remarriage, birth control, to name some. While the Catholic Church stands strong against them all, in the TRUTH. The Pope IS the authority to alllll Christians whether they believe it or NOT. Jesus put him there, not me.
challengeonline.org/modules/news/article.php?storyid=152
 
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