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If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 2
- Status
R
Ronald_E
Guest
Pixie, Maybe what you said needs a larger and colored print so that it is clearly seen. I do not know how to do it.In other words, you are not Catholic because you don’t really understand Catholicism.
I assure you, no Catholic is working their way to Heaven on their own merit. Faith, real, living faith is accompanied by good works. Not works of the Law (OT) but God working through us.
Thanks.
R
reen12
Guest
One needs be mindful of the canons of logic,
avoiding “circular reasoning.”
[One seeks to prove “A” - while using "A "as part of the proof.
Taking what is to be proved - and using same, as part of the ‘proof.’]
I am not called upon, by the exegencies of logic, to prove a negative, e.g. ----->
“God does not exist.”
“The RCC is not the true faith.”
The demand for proof - of a given assertion - is the reality that pertains…
in the chilly realms of logic.
The one doing the asserting ------> e.g. -God exists] is called upon to defend the assertion.
Not the other way round. I am not required, by the canons of logic, to prove that God does not exist.
[How could I prove that a purple unicorn does not ‘exist.’]
The one asserting that God does exist - carries the burden of proving this particular assertion.
Faith is a matter of belief.
“Jesus is the God/Man. He founded one true church -----> the RCC.”
Once accept the assertions of the RCC, in faith, then logic may be applied.
There is nothing inherently illogical about faith statements.
These assertions ‘doctrines’] are accepted by faith.
Such statements are not open to empirics.
They cannot be proved - using the canons of logic, and those of empirics.
That is why it is called “faith.”
I do not have to prove that the RCC is not “the true faith.”
Those who hold the position, that the RCC does constitute
the ‘true faith,’ bear the burden of proof.
I am not required to prove that Bigfoot does* not* exist. :juggle:
reen12
avoiding “circular reasoning.”
[One seeks to prove “A” - while using "A "as part of the proof.
Taking what is to be proved - and using same, as part of the ‘proof.’]
I am not called upon, by the exegencies of logic, to prove a negative, e.g. ----->
“God does not exist.”
“The RCC is not the true faith.”
The demand for proof - of a given assertion - is the reality that pertains…
in the chilly realms of logic.
The one doing the asserting ------> e.g. -God exists] is called upon to defend the assertion.
Not the other way round. I am not required, by the canons of logic, to prove that God does not exist.
[How could I prove that a purple unicorn does not ‘exist.’]
The one asserting that God does exist - carries the burden of proving this particular assertion.
Faith is a matter of belief.
“Jesus is the God/Man. He founded one true church -----> the RCC.”
Once accept the assertions of the RCC, in faith, then logic may be applied.
There is nothing inherently illogical about faith statements.
These assertions ‘doctrines’] are accepted by faith.
Such statements are not open to empirics.
They cannot be proved - using the canons of logic, and those of empirics.
That is why it is called “faith.”
I do not have to prove that the RCC is not “the true faith.”
Those who hold the position, that the RCC does constitute
the ‘true faith,’ bear the burden of proof.
I am not required to prove that Bigfoot does* not* exist. :juggle:
reen12
R
reen12
Guest
If you are a Christian, what is the real reason that
you are not an Evangelical Protestant?
If you are a Christian, what is the real reason that you
are not a member of Orthodoxy?
If you are a Catholic, why does your chuch assert doctrines - that
cannot be adhered to - while still claiming to accept the writings
of St. Paul, concerning justification?
If you are a Christian, why do you turn away from the
covenant that G-d formed, with His chosen people?
If you are a Christian, how is it that you declare G-d to be
three persons, in one G-d?
“How come” questions could be generated…nearly ad infinitum.
http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif
reen12
you are not an Evangelical Protestant?
If you are a Christian, what is the real reason that you
are not a member of Orthodoxy?
If you are a Catholic, why does your chuch assert doctrines - that
cannot be adhered to - while still claiming to accept the writings
of St. Paul, concerning justification?
If you are a Christian, why do you turn away from the
covenant that G-d formed, with His chosen people?
If you are a Christian, how is it that you declare G-d to be
three persons, in one G-d?
“How come” questions could be generated…nearly ad infinitum.
http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif
reen12
M
Memaw
Guest
Why is it that you ask so many silly questions. Read the Bible and you’ll find out why and how and what.
M
Memaw
Guest
I do not have to prove that the RCC is not “the true faith.”
Those who hold the position, that the RCC does constitute
the ‘true faith,’ bear the burden of proof.
The Catholic Church can prove it and it does prove it and it has been proving it for 2,000 years, but its up to you to learn of that proof.
Those who hold the position, that the RCC does constitute
the ‘true faith,’ bear the burden of proof.
The Catholic Church can prove it and it does prove it and it has been proving it for 2,000 years, but its up to you to learn of that proof.
J
joe370
Guest
J
joe370
Guest
2 Peter 1:20 - interpreting Scripture is not a matter of one’s own private interpretation. Therefore, it must be a matter of “public” interpretation of the Church. The Divine word of God needs a Divine Interpreter. Private judgment leads to divisions, and this is why there are 30,000 different Protestant denominations.
2 Peter 3:15-16 - Peter says Paul’s letters are inspired, but not all his letters are in the New Testament canon. See, for example, 1 Cor. 5:9-10; Col. 4:16. Also, Peter’s use of the word “ignorant” means unschooled, which presupposes the requirement of oral apostolic instruction that comes from the Church.
2 Peter 3:16 - the Scriptures are difficult to understand and can be distorted by the ignorant to their destruction. God did not guarantee the Holy Spirit would lead each of us to infallibly interpret the Scriptures. But this is what Protestants must argue in order to support their doctrine of sola Scriptura. History and countless divisions in Protestantism disprove it.
1 John 4:1 - again, God instructs us to test all things, test all spirits. Notwithstanding what many Protestants argue, the bible is not always obvious.
1 Sam. 3:1-9 - for example, the Lord speaks to Samuel, but Samuel doesn’t recognize it is God. The word of God is not self-attesting.
1 Kings 13:1-32 - in this story, we see that a man can’t discern between God’s word (the commandment “don’t eat”) and a prophet’s erroneous word (that God had rescinded his commandment “don’t eat”). The words of the Bible, in spite of what many Protestants must argue, are not always clear and understandable. This is why there are 30,000 different Protestant churches and one Holy Catholic Church.
Gen. to Rev. - Protestants must admit that knowing what books belong in the Bible is necessary for our salvation. However, because the Bible has no “inspired contents page,” you must look outside the Bible to see how its books were selected. This destroys the sola Scriptura theory. The canon of Scripture is a Revelation from God which is necessary for our salvation, which is a product of the C.C. --the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
"…faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” James 2:14-17
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only James 2:24
If you are referring to, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast” Ephesians 2:8-9–Saint Paul’s point was to stress that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ ALONE, not by obeying the Mosaic Law or by any HUMAN ACTION; without Jesus’ ransom, all works would be futile, because we all fall short of the glory due to our inherent sinful nature. The very next verse speaks of good works, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 10
If you are a Christian, why do you turn away from the
covenant that G-d formed, with His chosen people?
Are you referring to the O.T.?
If you are a Christian, how is it that you declare G-d to be
three persons, in one G-d?
The C.C. declared/defined this piece of doctrine, and almost all protestants believe it!
“How come” questions could be generated…nearly ad infinitum.
http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif
reen12
That can be summed up in one word—protestantism!
2 Peter 3:15-16 - Peter says Paul’s letters are inspired, but not all his letters are in the New Testament canon. See, for example, 1 Cor. 5:9-10; Col. 4:16. Also, Peter’s use of the word “ignorant” means unschooled, which presupposes the requirement of oral apostolic instruction that comes from the Church.
2 Peter 3:16 - the Scriptures are difficult to understand and can be distorted by the ignorant to their destruction. God did not guarantee the Holy Spirit would lead each of us to infallibly interpret the Scriptures. But this is what Protestants must argue in order to support their doctrine of sola Scriptura. History and countless divisions in Protestantism disprove it.
1 John 4:1 - again, God instructs us to test all things, test all spirits. Notwithstanding what many Protestants argue, the bible is not always obvious.
1 Sam. 3:1-9 - for example, the Lord speaks to Samuel, but Samuel doesn’t recognize it is God. The word of God is not self-attesting.
1 Kings 13:1-32 - in this story, we see that a man can’t discern between God’s word (the commandment “don’t eat”) and a prophet’s erroneous word (that God had rescinded his commandment “don’t eat”). The words of the Bible, in spite of what many Protestants must argue, are not always clear and understandable. This is why there are 30,000 different Protestant churches and one Holy Catholic Church.
Gen. to Rev. - Protestants must admit that knowing what books belong in the Bible is necessary for our salvation. However, because the Bible has no “inspired contents page,” you must look outside the Bible to see how its books were selected. This destroys the sola Scriptura theory. The canon of Scripture is a Revelation from God which is necessary for our salvation, which is a product of the C.C. --the pinnacle and foundation of the truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- while still claiming to accept the writings
of St. Paul, concerning justification?
"…faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” James 2:14-17
“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only James 2:24
If you are referring to, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast” Ephesians 2:8-9–Saint Paul’s point was to stress that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ ALONE, not by obeying the Mosaic Law or by any HUMAN ACTION; without Jesus’ ransom, all works would be futile, because we all fall short of the glory due to our inherent sinful nature. The very next verse speaks of good works, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 10
If you are a Christian, why do you turn away from the
covenant that G-d formed, with His chosen people?
Are you referring to the O.T.?
If you are a Christian, how is it that you declare G-d to be
three persons, in one G-d?
The C.C. declared/defined this piece of doctrine, and almost all protestants believe it!
“How come” questions could be generated…nearly ad infinitum.
http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif
reen12
That can be summed up in one word—protestantism!
R
reen12
Guest
quote: reen12
assertion, to claim that this is the case.
As to “silly” questions - been asking same, since 1958.
I keep asking silly questions - because I so often
receive silly answers.
When people of faith cease indulging in circular reasoning,
I’ll stop asking risible questions.
Fifty years…and counting. Still running into circular reasoning.
Best,
reen12
Christians bear the burden, first, of defending why the scriptures are to be considered the word of God. Otherwise, it is mere
assertion, to claim that this is the case.
As to “silly” questions - been asking same, since 1958.
I keep asking silly questions - because I so often
receive silly answers.
When people of faith cease indulging in circular reasoning,
I’ll stop asking risible questions.
Fifty years…and counting. Still running into circular reasoning.
Best,
reen12
R
reen12
Guest
Why is faith referred to as “faith?”
“Blessed are you who have not seen, and yet believe.”
The operative verb, chosen by Jesus of Nazareth, here, is “believe.”
When in the name of heaven will people of faith come
to realize - that the writings that they cite carry no weight,
whatever - in terms of the burden of proof?
I am not called upon to prove that Jesus of Nazareth
is/was the God/Man.
What the Church has been “proving,” for 2 millenia,
is that she is a marvel, when it comes to circular reasoning.
Using “proof-texts” - to support her claims. Again, circular
reasoning. If I ‘believed’ that same were the word of God,
then I would accept the texts as being redolent of reality.
Accept the premises, and we’re good to go.
Grant the premises, and her theology is exquisite.
I ask again. Why is the word “faith” chosen?
If what the Christian scriptures assert could be proven to be true, faith would not enter into the discussion. Even Jesus knew that.
"Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe.
When an individual says “I have faith” - with regard to
Church/Godhead - what does this mean?
Proferring proof texts - aka the scriptures - is lovely.
Unhappily, this, too, is a matter of faith.
reen12
“Blessed are you who have not seen, and yet believe.”
The operative verb, chosen by Jesus of Nazareth, here, is “believe.”
When in the name of heaven will people of faith come
to realize - that the writings that they cite carry no weight,
whatever - in terms of the burden of proof?
I am not called upon to prove that Jesus of Nazareth
is/was the God/Man.
What the Church has been “proving,” for 2 millenia,
is that she is a marvel, when it comes to circular reasoning.
Using “proof-texts” - to support her claims. Again, circular
reasoning. If I ‘believed’ that same were the word of God,
then I would accept the texts as being redolent of reality.
Accept the premises, and we’re good to go.
Grant the premises, and her theology is exquisite.
I ask again. Why is the word “faith” chosen?
If what the Christian scriptures assert could be proven to be true, faith would not enter into the discussion. Even Jesus knew that.
"Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe.
When an individual says “I have faith” - with regard to
Church/Godhead - what does this mean?
Proferring proof texts - aka the scriptures - is lovely.
Unhappily, this, too, is a matter of faith.
reen12
J
Jimmy_B
Guest
You have made an excellent point here Joe…This says it, all right here and I believe that the number is actually closer to 40,000.
I would like to here a Protestant explain the logic or biblical bases for these divisions and sub-divisions of Christianity.
Personal interpretation has led to “mob rule” and chaos and it has weakened Christianity. It is the old, “divide and conquer” principle and we are dividing and conquering ourselves.
Imagine how much greater Christianity would be and all the great things that we could accomplish, working together as one faith, which was truly united…
The insanity needs to stop….Where living in a world today, where anyone who has a Bible can become a “minister” and start his or her own (Protestant) Christian denomination. People now can pay a small free and become “ordained ministers”, over the internet. Many people today are having non-denominational ministers perform their marriage ceremonies. What is a “non-denominational ministers” anyways…this does not even make any sense.
Some ministers make a living, just marring people. They have drive-through marriage chapels and Elvis impersonators who perform marriages in Las Vegas. There are ministers on TV who claim to heal people and ask for your money. Some ministers and preachers today wear Rolex watches, drive expensive cars and live in mansion all paid for with the monies that were given to them, with the intention that it would go to help the needy.
There is even a “drunken minister” on the Jerry Springer show.
All these so-called “Ministers of God” belong to some Protestant denomination. People today have made a mockery of Christianity and a mockery of Holy Sacraments, like marriage. The main cause of all this nonsense can be blamed on “personal interpretation” of the Bible.
I know that there are some good and decent ministers and decent denominations out there but with personal interpretation, even a “normal ministers” could error and join the ranks of all the other crazy’s.
Why don’t the “squared away” denominations, reign in the nut cases? They don’t, because they can’t…They can’t, because they too believe in the flawed doctrine of “personal interpretation” or, “to each his own”, right?.
I am sure that there exist some Protestants out their who are just as offend as I am with the breakdown of Christianity…What are your thoughts and how is anybody going to correct these problems, without central leadership, oversight and a chain of command?
I pray for true Christian Unity….
Peace
M
Memaw
Guest
quote: reen12
Christians bear the burden, first, of defending why the scriptures are to be considered the word of God. Otherwise, it is mere
assertion, to claim that this is the case.
1
We have been doing this over and over again on this thread. Why don’t you go back to the beginning and read it. ****
As to “silly” questions - been asking same, since 1958.
I keep asking silly questions - because I so often
receive silly answers.
2
My Mom used to say, “If you ask a silly question, you get a silly answer.” ****
When people of faith cease indulging in circular reasoning,
I’ll stop asking risible questions.
3
Do a little research on your own, We have given many good resources on this thread, you have to put out some of the effort on your own, We can’t hand it to you on a silver platter. Would if I could. Faith is a gift from God and one must pray for it and be willing to go where HE leads you in the TRUTH. HIS TRUTH, not yours. ****
Fifty years…and counting. Still running into circular reasoning.
4
Thats your fault, some people like going in circles so they keep one foot on the ground. You need to go forward with both feet. Seek the TRUTH.****, God Bless, Memaw
Best,
reen12
M
Memaw
Guest
We Catholics know that, but its really hard to convince set minded people otherwise. Faith is a GIFT from God, what we do with that Faith is our responsibility. We have the “Morning Offering” where we offer everything we think, do and say, for that day to Our Lord. Catholics are very familiar with the saying. “Offer it UP”. Bishop Sheen used to say that so much suffering was wasted because many do not offer it to Our Lord in union with HIS suffering. God Bless, MemawIn other words, you are not Catholic because you don’t really understand Catholicism.
I assure you, no Catholic is working their way to Heaven on their own merit. Faith, real, living faith is accompanied by good works. Not works of the Law (OT) but God working through us.
R
reen12
Guest
Apologetics is charming. Just the sort of thing needed, in intra-mural exchanges.
[A Christian, of one denomination, explaining/defending doctrines -
engaged in dialogue with a Christian of another denomination -
who also accepts the Chrisitan scriptures as “proof-texts.”]
Christians, start your engines. We’re good to go.
Opening gambit? Catholicism is not to be considered a “denomination,”
because she is the true Church, founded by Christ - with Peter
appointed to move the ball down the field, assisted in this ground-game
by the protection and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.
Suddenly, God is no longer one. A trinity of three divine persons, in one God.
God is now one - and multiple - at the same time. [Be sure to produce
the anecdote of Augustine, strolling on the beach…]
All of this is most bracing. “I am willing to give credence to the
testimony of the followers of Jesus of Nazareth. I accept that
their testimony comports with reality.”
Faith is further defined as ‘a gift of God’s grace.’
RCC theology is perfectly gorgeous. It is both elegant and exquisite.
[Yet Orthodoxy has a greater respect for mystery.]
One thing that I am thankful for, is that Christiany has brought word
of the one God to those who might never have received that word-
were it not for the testimony and witness, given by Christians, over the centuries.
Thankful, too, for the hospitals, the care of orphans, the universities
that were created by the Church. For the exultation of mercy as an
attribute of God. [That extending mercy, is to be like Him.]
For the command to love one’s enemies, and to pray for them.
And, in our own day, the RCC will have been seen to have had one
of her most glorious moments - as she stood in the face of the culture of death,
upholding and proclaiming the infinite value of each human life - and the sacredness of that life,
from conception to natural death.
Faith is a gift of grace. There will always be a need for apologists,
when those seeking Him need their questions answered.
Yet the lives of Christians are the best proclamation of faith.
That - because of their joy, and their peace, in suffering - the good news is seen to* be* good news.
“By this will all men know that you follow Me, that you have love for one another.” [John 13]
reen12
[A Christian, of one denomination, explaining/defending doctrines -
engaged in dialogue with a Christian of another denomination -
who also accepts the Chrisitan scriptures as “proof-texts.”]
Christians, start your engines. We’re good to go.
Opening gambit? Catholicism is not to be considered a “denomination,”
because she is the true Church, founded by Christ - with Peter
appointed to move the ball down the field, assisted in this ground-game
by the protection and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.
Suddenly, God is no longer one. A trinity of three divine persons, in one God.
God is now one - and multiple - at the same time. [Be sure to produce
the anecdote of Augustine, strolling on the beach…]
All of this is most bracing. “I am willing to give credence to the
testimony of the followers of Jesus of Nazareth. I accept that
their testimony comports with reality.”
Faith is further defined as ‘a gift of God’s grace.’
RCC theology is perfectly gorgeous. It is both elegant and exquisite.
[Yet Orthodoxy has a greater respect for mystery.]
One thing that I am thankful for, is that Christiany has brought word
of the one God to those who might never have received that word-
were it not for the testimony and witness, given by Christians, over the centuries.
Thankful, too, for the hospitals, the care of orphans, the universities
that were created by the Church. For the exultation of mercy as an
attribute of God. [That extending mercy, is to be like Him.]
For the command to love one’s enemies, and to pray for them.
And, in our own day, the RCC will have been seen to have had one
of her most glorious moments - as she stood in the face of the culture of death,
upholding and proclaiming the infinite value of each human life - and the sacredness of that life,
from conception to natural death.
Faith is a gift of grace. There will always be a need for apologists,
when those seeking Him need their questions answered.
Yet the lives of Christians are the best proclamation of faith.
That - because of their joy, and their peace, in suffering - the good news is seen to* be* good news.
“By this will all men know that you follow Me, that you have love for one another.” [John 13]
reen12
R
reen12
Guest
Aquinas, not long before his death, had an immediate experience of God.
After this, he stated that - all that he had written, was as ‘straw.’
God, I think, rewarded His son - who had given of his best, in composing the Summa.
Thomas now realized that the critical element could have been summarized in a simple declaritive sentence.
“I know that my Redeemer lives.”
If, in explaining the bases of doctrines, in offering a spirited defense of the faith,
simple charity is lost sight of, such efforts become the straw that Aquinas spoke of.
The only straw that might be well-referrenced, by a Christian, is the straw in the manger.
Or the straw that was not given to the Israelites, to make bricks.
Some apologists need to consider that, using straw,
to create a scare crow - that frightens off the sparrow -
does their Master no service. “But Lord, didn’t we declare You?”
“Didn’t we defend Your truth?”
“Depart from Me. I never knew you.”
When you spoke in My name, without charity, you disfigured My face more than
the Roman soldiers did. You made Me unrecognizable, to those who sought Me.
Whatever you said, and the way that you said it,
to one of the least of My brethren, you said unto Me.
“Thou shalt not misuse My Name.” [Exodus 20]
Was this why God often chose the very humble to reveal
Himself to? Faustina, for one. Who “explained” the faith
more clearly… than Mother Teresa?
In faith, as in all else, actions speak much much louder than words.
reen12
After this, he stated that - all that he had written, was as ‘straw.’
God, I think, rewarded His son - who had given of his best, in composing the Summa.
Thomas now realized that the critical element could have been summarized in a simple declaritive sentence.
“I know that my Redeemer lives.”
If, in explaining the bases of doctrines, in offering a spirited defense of the faith,
simple charity is lost sight of, such efforts become the straw that Aquinas spoke of.
The only straw that might be well-referrenced, by a Christian, is the straw in the manger.
Or the straw that was not given to the Israelites, to make bricks.
Some apologists need to consider that, using straw,
to create a scare crow - that frightens off the sparrow -
does their Master no service. “But Lord, didn’t we declare You?”
“Didn’t we defend Your truth?”
“Depart from Me. I never knew you.”
When you spoke in My name, without charity, you disfigured My face more than
the Roman soldiers did. You made Me unrecognizable, to those who sought Me.
Whatever you said, and the way that you said it,
to one of the least of My brethren, you said unto Me.
“Thou shalt not misuse My Name.” [Exodus 20]
Was this why God often chose the very humble to reveal
Himself to? Faustina, for one. Who “explained” the faith
more clearly… than Mother Teresa?
In faith, as in all else, actions speak much much louder than words.
reen12
J
joe370
Guest
Christians, startracet your engines. We’re good to go.
Opening gambit? Catholicism is not to be considered a “denomination,”
because she is the true Church, founded by Christ - with Peter
appointed to move the ball down the field, assisted in this ground-game
by the protection and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.**
Now you’re starting to get the picture, albeit a trifle sarcastic, but who cares, the “glorious” point is --you are getting it, even if your perception of that picture is a bit skewed.
**For the first thousand years of Christianity there were no denominations, as we know it today, simply because there was no Eastern Orthodoxy or Protestantism to distinguish it. There was only the “one, holy, catholic church” affirmed by the early creeds, which was the body of Christian believers all over the world, united by common traditions, beliefs, church structure and worship (catholic simply means “universal”). Thus, throughout the Middle Ages, if you were a Christian, you belonged to the Catholic Church. Any Christianity other than the Catholic Church was a heresy, not a denomination.
Catholicism traces its history to the apostles, especially the Apostle Peter. St. Peter is the Rock on which Jesus’ church was/is built upon, and Jesus promised that hell would never prevail, regardless of individual apostasies (all predicted by Jesus and Paul) within the church:
*“Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.” ***(Acts 20:26-30 RSV)
*“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” *Matthew7:15
Since the C.C., according to the bible (K.J.V.) --is the only church endowed with the infallible H.S., (a promise of perpetuity granted by Jesus to the apostolic church alone) and that can connect the dots all the way back to Saint Peter and the rest of the Apostles, this gives the leaders of the church spiritual authority and provides a means for resolving disputes that could divide the church. Through trials like persecution, heresy, and the Reformation, the fact that the church leadership, has successfully avoided “division” and “dissension” and maintained “the unity of the spirit” --and represents the continuation of an unbroken line from the apostles and their teachings (“apostolic succession”) has certainly contributed to the survival of Catholicism.
*“Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” * Ephesians 4:3-6
***“If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” *** John 14:15-18
“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” John 14:25-26
**The C.C. was never referred to as a denomination prior to the protestant reformation. The C.C. was, before the reformation, and still is, and will continue to be the “one” apostolic church established by Jesus Christ circa 33 AD, until Jesus’ second coming! Every Bishop in the C.C. can trace their authority back through an unbroken line of consecrations to the Apostles, and then Christ. This is referred to as the “Apostolic succession” and no other church can make that claim. This is a historical fact! The word denomination (a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith) was the result of the 16th century protestant reformation; prior to the reformation, it was never used in this particular context.
By the way, the C.C. provided the world with the Bible, so it certainly stands to reason, the C.C. should accept Sacred Scripture as “proof-texts.”—along with Sacred Tradition, guided by the Magesterium, which of course is “forever” guided by the Holy Spirit.
Opening gambit? Catholicism is not to be considered a “denomination,”
because she is the true Church, founded by Christ - with Peter
appointed to move the ball down the field, assisted in this ground-game
by the protection and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.**
Now you’re starting to get the picture, albeit a trifle sarcastic, but who cares, the “glorious” point is --you are getting it, even if your perception of that picture is a bit skewed.
**For the first thousand years of Christianity there were no denominations, as we know it today, simply because there was no Eastern Orthodoxy or Protestantism to distinguish it. There was only the “one, holy, catholic church” affirmed by the early creeds, which was the body of Christian believers all over the world, united by common traditions, beliefs, church structure and worship (catholic simply means “universal”). Thus, throughout the Middle Ages, if you were a Christian, you belonged to the Catholic Church. Any Christianity other than the Catholic Church was a heresy, not a denomination.
Catholicism traces its history to the apostles, especially the Apostle Peter. St. Peter is the Rock on which Jesus’ church was/is built upon, and Jesus promised that hell would never prevail, regardless of individual apostasies (all predicted by Jesus and Paul) within the church:
*“Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.” ***(Acts 20:26-30 RSV)
*“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” *Matthew7:15
Since the C.C., according to the bible (K.J.V.) --is the only church endowed with the infallible H.S., (a promise of perpetuity granted by Jesus to the apostolic church alone) and that can connect the dots all the way back to Saint Peter and the rest of the Apostles, this gives the leaders of the church spiritual authority and provides a means for resolving disputes that could divide the church. Through trials like persecution, heresy, and the Reformation, the fact that the church leadership, has successfully avoided “division” and “dissension” and maintained “the unity of the spirit” --and represents the continuation of an unbroken line from the apostles and their teachings (“apostolic succession”) has certainly contributed to the survival of Catholicism.
*“Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” * Ephesians 4:3-6
***“If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” *** John 14:15-18
“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” John 14:25-26
**The C.C. was never referred to as a denomination prior to the protestant reformation. The C.C. was, before the reformation, and still is, and will continue to be the “one” apostolic church established by Jesus Christ circa 33 AD, until Jesus’ second coming! Every Bishop in the C.C. can trace their authority back through an unbroken line of consecrations to the Apostles, and then Christ. This is referred to as the “Apostolic succession” and no other church can make that claim. This is a historical fact! The word denomination (a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith) was the result of the 16th century protestant reformation; prior to the reformation, it was never used in this particular context.
By the way, the C.C. provided the world with the Bible, so it certainly stands to reason, the C.C. should accept Sacred Scripture as “proof-texts.”—along with Sacred Tradition, guided by the Magesterium, which of course is “forever” guided by the Holy Spirit.
M
Memaw
Guest
Christians, startracet your engines. We’re good to go.
Opening gambit? Catholicism is not to be considered a “denomination,”
because she is the true Church, founded by Christ - with Peter
appointed to move the ball down the field, assisted in this ground-game
by the protection and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.**
Now you’re starting to get the picture, albeit a trifle sarcastic, but who cares**, the “glorious” point is --you are getting it, even if your perception of that picture is a bit skewed.
**For the first thousand years of Christianity there were no denominations, as we know it today, simply because there was no Eastern Orthodoxy or Protestantism to distinguish it. There was only the “one, holy, catholic church” affirmed by the early creeds, which was the body of Christian believers all over the world, united by common traditions, beliefs, church structure and worship (catholic simply means “universal”). Thus, throughout the Middle Ages, if you were a Christian, you belonged to the Catholic Church. Any Christianity other than the Catholic Church was a heresy, not a denomination.
Catholicism traces its history to the apostles, especially the Apostle Peter. St. Peter is the Rock on which Jesus’ church was/is built upon, and Jesus promised that hell would never prevail, regardless of individual apostasies (all predicted by Jesus and Paul) within the church:
*“Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God which he obtained with the blood of his own Son. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.” ***(Acts 20:26-30 RSV)
*“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” *Matthew7:15
Since the C.C., according to the bible (K.J.V.) --is the only church endowed with the infallible H.S., (a promise of perpetuity granted by Jesus to the apostolic church alone) and that can connect the dots all the way back to Saint Peter and the rest of the Apostles, this gives the leaders of the church spiritual authority and provides a means for resolving disputes that could divide the church. Through trials like persecution, heresy, and the Reformation, the fact that the church leadership, has successfully avoided “division” and “dissension” and maintained “the unity of the spirit” --and represents the continuation of an unbroken line from the apostles and their teachings (“apostolic succession”) has certainly contributed to the survival of Catholicism.
*“Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” * Ephesians 4:3-6
***“If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.” *** John 14:15-18
“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.” John 14:25-26
**The C.C. was never referred to as a denomination prior to the protestant reformation. The C.C. was, before the reformation, and still is, and will continue to be the “one” apostolic church established by Jesus Christ circa 33 AD, until Jesus’ second coming! Every Bishop in the C.C. can trace their authority back through an unbroken line of consecrations to the Apostles, and then Christ. This is referred to as the “Apostolic succession” and no other church can make that claim. This is a historical fact! The word denomination (a group of religious congregations having its own organization and a distinctive faith) was the result of the 16th century protestant reformation; prior to the reformation, it was never used in this particular context.
By the way, the C.C. provided the world with the Bible, so it certainly stands to reason, the C.C. should accept Sacred Scripture as “proof-texts.”—along with Sacred Tradition, guided by the Magesterium, which of course is “forever” guided by the Holy Spirit. **
AMEN,AAAAMEN, AAMEN,AMEN<AMEN, Alleluia!!!
J
joe370
Guest
Here are 35 reasons to embrace the Catholic Church. Without the custodial guidance of the C.C. --2 Timothy 3:16-17, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”—would encompass the following apocryphal books as well.
So, protestants, regardless of denomination, should at least, for all practical purposes, either admit that the 46 books of the Old and the 27 books of the New Testament (the Bible) are exclusively catholic or start including the following 35 apocryphal books under the man-made premise that the bible alone (“all scripture”**) is the final authority. 2 Tim. 3:16; I Cor.4:6; Acts 17:11; Isa.8:20, etc. **
*Definitions of SOLA SCRIPTURA on the Web:
**Apocrypha Books:
Apocrypha refer to texts which are not included in any Bible, they are left out of officially sanctioned versions (‘canon’) of the Bible. The term means ‘things hidden away,’ which implies secret or esoteric literature. However, none of these texts were ever considered secret.
Christian Apocrypha:
There are 35 books not included in any Bible, attributed to persons in the Gospels, and dealing on Christian and Biblical themes:
- 14 Gospels, by Thomas, James, Peter, Bartholomew, Mark…
- 15 Acts, by Andrew, Peter, Matthew, John, Thomas, Paul…
- 6 Revelations, by Paul, Thomas, John, Virgin, Stephen, Peter…**
So, protestants, regardless of denomination, should at least, for all practical purposes, either admit that the 46 books of the Old and the 27 books of the New Testament (the Bible) are exclusively catholic or start including the following 35 apocryphal books under the man-made premise that the bible alone (“all scripture”**) is the final authority. 2 Tim. 3:16; I Cor.4:6; Acts 17:11; Isa.8:20, etc. **
*Definitions of SOLA SCRIPTURA on the Web:
Code:
* Is a Latin phrase that means Scripture alone. Martin Luther and other reformers taught that Scripture, and only Scripture, was the final authority ...
[www.fandm.edu/x13718.xml](www.fandm.edu/x13718.xml)
* Latin for “Scripture alone”. Fundamental tenant of the Reformation teaching that the whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for God’s glory, man’s salvation, faith and life is set down in Scripture (see 2 Timothy 3:14-17; Hebrews 1-6).
* Scripture Alone. This was the fundamental point in dispute in the Protestant Reformation. It is taught in 2 Tim. 3:16-17; I Cor.4:6; Acts 17:11; Isa.8:20, etc.
members.aol.com/rbiblech/MiscDoctrine/LatinTerms.htm
* Latin for 'by Scripture alone,' is one of five important slogans of the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. It meant that Scripture is the Church's only infallible rule for deciding issues of faith and practices that involve doctrines. ...
eternalpurpose.org.uk/glossary
* Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by scripture alone") is the assertion that the Bible as God's written word is self-authenticating, clear (perspicuous) to the rational reader, its own interpreter ("Scripture interprets Scripture"), and sufficient of itself to be the only source of Christian ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola scriptura*Apocrypha refer to texts which are not included in any Bible, they are left out of officially sanctioned versions (‘canon’) of the Bible. The term means ‘things hidden away,’ which implies secret or esoteric literature. However, none of these texts were ever considered secret.
Christian Apocrypha:
There are 35 books not included in any Bible, attributed to persons in the Gospels, and dealing on Christian and Biblical themes:
- 14 Gospels, by Thomas, James, Peter, Bartholomew, Mark…
- 15 Acts, by Andrew, Peter, Matthew, John, Thomas, Paul…
- 6 Revelations, by Paul, Thomas, John, Virgin, Stephen, Peter…**
J
joe370
Guest
As Dr. Frasier Crane use to say, I’m listening… LOLquote: reen12
Christians bear the burden, first, of defending why the scriptures are to be considered the word of God. Otherwise, it is mere assertion, to claim that this is the case.
I totally agree!!!
As to “silly” questions - been asking same, since 1958.
I keep asking silly questions - because I so often
receive silly answers.
**Why don’t you ask me or others at this thread, some sound questions and maybe I or others at this wonderful thread could give you a sound answer. **
When people of faith cease indulging in circular reasoning, i’ll stop asking risible questions.
**Seems fair enough! **
Fifty years…and counting. Still running into circular reasoning.
**Lets see if we can get you out of this endless vortex and find the door that will lead you to the answers you so desperately seem to want; what do you think? **
Best,
reen12
God bless…
- Status