If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 2

[Pixie_Dust]

This is a great post. I deleted the parts I have not experienced because I was not raised Catholic. I converted in 1990 and am now, at best, a nominal Catholic mainly because of the attitudes Calliope cites. The problem with attempting to dialogue is that most of the die-hard Catholics on this forum always start from the same point (i.e., we are right, therefore, you must be wrong). This is not a dialogue, it is a sermon. Those of you who do this are doing your cause a disservice by shutting people down with this attitude.

Am I reading this correctly - you are a mediocre Catholic because *other *Catholics have attitude problems? Please correct me if I’m misunderstanding you.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Hello Singinbeauty,

Was this really necessary? My post (that you addressed here, post #12) was not addressed to you and it was well intended (post #12); and well received (post #14).

My posts here are based on my beliefs in the context that I am a Roman Catholic. In this setting, a Catholic forum, where Catholics and non-Catholics share their differences, there will obviously be disagreements. However, all properly Baptized Christians (including Catholics) are all “Brothers and Sisters in Christ”. /quote]
But to suggest that we are less than you is just something to get protestants riled up. My Faith is not less than YOURS, and vice versa. I do have the right, even on a Catholic board, to point out threads or posts that try to tell me that my Faith is less than the Catholic Faith, especially when we are on the NON-CATHOLIC part of the boards. I am not stupid, I have chosen the Faith that I feel is right, and I don’t believe that it is less than yours. To suggest something of that sort is offensive and deserves my response.

Generally speaking

It could be said that there exists a certian amount of “arrogance” and a “holier than thou” nature built into “Protestantism” itself. After-all, "Protestantism’ is the “protesting” of the Roman Catholic Church, the first Christian Church and the protesting of Christian doctrine and beliefs associated with the Early Church. This would mean that the persons responsible for "Protestantism” and all of the 36,000+ different denominations which followed, are displaying “arrogance” and a “holier than thou” attitude towards the denomination that they broke from.

Thank you for your post, you have given me some new ideas for some new threads.

God Bless You!
I don’t know how many times I have to say this but… I AM NOT PROTESTING, AND I DO NOT KNOW ANY ‘PROTESTANTS’ WHO ARE PROTESTING, ANY CHURCH INCLUDING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

To be on the path to finding God and trying to Worship and Follow Him in any way they can is not arrogance. To be following their hearts in the pursuit of God is not holier than thou. Look at WHY these different churches are popping up. It’s not to say we are better, its to say - THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY. They feel they lack something in the church they attend so they seek to fill it with something else. It’s not arrogance (for the most part - I do not speak for all) or holier than thou, its just their path they are walking with God.

Your post was just arrogance.

 

[c659smith]

Jimmy B;3421031:

Hello Singinbeauty

,

Was this really necessary? My post (that you addressed here, post #12) was not addressed to you and it was well intended (post #12); and well received (post #14).

My posts here are based on my beliefs in the context that I am a Roman Catholic. In this setting, a Catholic forum, where Catholics and non-Catholics share their differences, there will obviously be disagreements. However, all properly Baptized Christians (including Catholics) are all “Brothers and Sisters in Christ”. /quote]
But to suggest that we are less than you is just something to get protestants riled up. My Faith is not less than YOURS, and vice versa. I do have the right, even on a Catholic board, to point out threads or posts that try to tell me that my Faith is less than the Catholic Faith, especially when we are on the NON-CATHOLIC part of the boards. I am not stupid, I have chosen the Faith that I feel is right, and I don’t believe that it is less than yours. To suggest something of that sort is offensive and deserves my response.

I don’t know how many times I have to say this but… I AM NOT PROTESTING, AND I DO NOT KNOW ANY ‘PROTESTANTS’ WHO ARE PROTESTING, ANY CHURCH INCLUDING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

To be on the path to finding God and trying to Worship and Follow Him in any way they can is not arrogance. To be following their hearts in the pursuit of God is not holier than thou. Look at WHY these different churches are popping up. It’s not to say we are better, its to say - THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY. They feel they lack something in the church they attend so they seek to fill it with something else. It’s not arrogance (for the most part - I do not speak for all) or holier than thou, its just their path they are walking with God.

Your post was just arrogance.

But all protestant Churches were built off of protests were they not ? Do you know of any that does not have it’s beginning or roots in protest of the Cathlic Church and it’s Sacred Scripture, Sacred Traditions, Or Sacred Teachings?
For without that why would there be protestant Churches?

 

[MelanieAnne]

Singinbeauty;3434046:

But all protestant Churches were built off of protests were they not ? Do you know of any that does not have it’s beginning or roots in protest of the Catholic Church and it’s Sacred Scripture, Sacred Traditions, Or Sacred Teachings?
For without that why would there be protestant Churches?

When some Protestant churches have gone so far afield of their own roots as to declare the Catholic Church “non-Christian” (and other names too offensive to mention!) I think it is at least safe to assume that they have lost track of their Roman Catholic origins. Those that begin by saying “Catholics are not Christian” I assume to be so ignorant not just of my religion, but of their own as well, that there’s no point in discussing religion with them.

I was Episcopalian as a child and young adult. I never thought of myself as “protesting” Catholicism, in fact I rarely thought of Catholicism at all. I think the term “Protestant” has lost some of its original meaning and today it’s more of a generic term for a non-Catholic Christian.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy B;3421031:

Hello Singinbeauty

,

Was this really necessary? My post (that you addressed here, post #12) was not addressed to you and it was well intended (post #12); and well received (post #14).

My posts here are based on my beliefs in the context that I am a Roman Catholic. In this setting, a Catholic forum, where Catholics and non-Catholics share their differences, there will obviously be disagreements. However, all properly Baptized Christians (including Catholics) are all “Brothers and Sisters in Christ”. /quote]
But to suggest that we are less than you is just something to get protestants riled up. My Faith is not less than YOURS, and vice versa. I do have the right, even on a Catholic board, to point out threads or posts that try to tell me that my Faith is less than the Catholic Faith, especially when we are on the NON-CATHOLIC part of the boards. I am not stupid, I have chosen the Faith that I feel is right, and I don’t believe that it is less than yours. To suggest something of that sort is offensive and deserves my response.

I don’t know how many times I have to say this but… I AM NOT PROTESTING, AND I DO NOT KNOW ANY ‘PROTESTANTS’ WHO ARE PROTESTING, ANY CHURCH INCLUDING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

To be on the path to finding God and trying to Worship and Follow Him in any way they can is not arrogance. To be following their hearts in the pursuit of God is not holier than thou. Look at WHY these different churches are popping up. It’s not to say we are better, its to say - THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY. They feel they lack something in the church they attend so they seek to fill it with something else. It’s not arrogance (for the most part - I do not speak for all) or holier than thou, its just their path they are walking with God.

Your post was just arrogance.
Oh ooh …the “mad face”mad: ) and all caps… Sorry, do not take it personally; I didn’t make up the word “Protestant”. All non-Catholic Christian denominations that followed the “Protestant Movement” are by definition - “Protestant”, because their doctrine is “protesting” that of the Roman Catholic Church, in one way or another. The Bible that “Protestants” use, is a “Protestant”, non-Catholic Bible.

Generally speaking, from a Catholic viewpoint, one cannot “walk with God” if he or she deliberately and knowingly rejects Christian (Catholic) truths and/or, they are in mortal sin. There are many who will be led down the wrong “path”. There are some “Protestants” who say, write, teach, preach and do things that are heretical and some will go to their Final Judgment with un- forgiven, Mortal Sins on their souls and only God knows for sure what their fate will be, we can all hope and pray for these people.

Note: This does not apply to you specifically, so please…no “hate-mail”.

You can always stop protesting and come home to Christ’s True Church here on earth, the Roman Catholic Church.

As a Roman Catholic, I except Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, so by most “Protestant” standards (Saved by Faith Alone) I am “Saved”. If the “Protestants” are right, then I go to heaven, because “I have already done enough” and if the Catholic Church is right (and I am not in mortal sin) I have the hope of Salvation.

Catholic beliefs = “Win-Win”.

This does not necessarily work the other around. Why would anyone want to take the chance? I would rather do “too much” than “not enough”.

Instead of responding to me specifically and calling me names, why don’t you defend your own beliefs, using the Bible?

God bless you, I will pray for you!

 

[Swan]

Am I reading this correctly - you are a mediocre Catholic because *other *Catholics have attitude problems? Please correct me if I’m misunderstanding you.

You are misunderstanding, though in re-reading I can see how you got that impression. Also, thanks for asking instead of just assuming. What I meant to say was that I have been pushed away by the attutides of many of these forums. While I struggle on my path to God I have encountered so much self-rightousness that I have been wounded. I have encountered presumption, lack of compassion, castigation and condemnation a plenty. And I would like to say to those who indulge in such activity (not you, Pixie Dust) that you do not seem to be aware, or to care, about the damage you are doing to the faith of others, the obstacles you are putting on the path to God and that perhaps you might want to give this some thought. This is Palm Sunday and it is just today that I realize the extent of the wounds and pain these attitudes have inflicted. We love God because of his unconditional, all powerful love for us, his patience, his compassion. I see very little of that here. Thus, I have begun to look elsewhere. It is a simple, and sad (to me anyway) as that.


Have a blessed Holy Week.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

You are misunderstanding, though in re-reading I can see how you got that impression. Also, thanks for asking instead of just assuming. What I meant to say was that I have been pushed away by the attutides of many of these forums. While I struggle on my path to God I have encountered so much self-rightousness that I have been wounded. I have encountered presumption, lack of compassion, castigation and condemnation a plenty. And I would like to say to those who indulge in such activity (not you, Pixie Dust) that you do not seem to be aware, or to care, about the damage you are doing to the faith of others, the obstacles you are putting on the path to God and that perhaps you might want to give this some thought. This is Palm Sunday and it is just today that I realize the extent of the wounds and pain these attitudes have inflicted. We love God because of his unconditional, all powerful love for us, his patience, his compassion. I see very little of that here. Thus, I have begun to look elsewhere. It is a simple, and sad (to me anyway) as that.

As a convert, I can tell you that you can’t escape people with that holier-than-thou attitude in any church. They’re everywhere. What you have to do is keep your eyes focused on what God is asking of you. Truthfully, it wasn’t the “in your face, we’re right, you’re wrong HERETIC!” that drew me to the Church. It was being asked questions about why I believed what I did in light of certain Biblical passages that contradicted my stated beliefs that started my journey 'cross the Tiber.

Note To Budding Apologists: You’re better off asking questions than making declarations. Just sayin’.

Have a blessed Holy Week.

Thank you! I get to watch my husband and kids come into the Church this Easter Vigil! It’s going to be a Blessed Holy week indeed! I hope yours is as well!

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hello Swan,

Please don’t use others here as an excuse. Are you implying that this (CAF Forums) is the only source of information on Catholicism? Have you been to the home page here at CAF? Have you ever read any Catholic Apologetic books?

I find it a amazing how many non-Catholics here attack lay Catholics on these forums as if the Catholics here are the only Catholics in the history of Catholicism who have ever defended their Catholic Faith. Many of these same non-Catholic Christians will not “attack” a “real” apologist, personally or address comments made by them but they are eager to attack lay Catholics here on a forum.

It seems to me that when some non-Catholics here do not want to or cannot defend their faith biblically or in any other civil way, that the “lack of compassion” or “they are so arrogant” argument is used. This is not a valid theological argument, this is a personal attack. To wrongly assert that someone is arrogant or that they lack compassion is an insult and a comment of this nature could be said to lack compassion towards the person it is directed to.

People like me will ask non-personal theological or Biblical questions and many times, we will get a personal response.

Why would a non-Catholic care what a lay Catholic posts if they are not Catholic? Why would a non-Catholic care what Catholics “believe” if they truly believe that their Christian denomination is the true or correct Christian denomination? I am a Roman Catholic and I have met other Roman Catholics that I do not really care for but that does not in any why affect my faith, just as meeting “really nice” non-Catholics, doesn’t affect my Catholic faith.

Just because someone defends their Catholic faith, doesn’t mean that they are not compassionate and it doesn’t mean that they are arrogant.

Some “whisper” when they defend their faith and some don’t. When all the “fluff” and “nice talk” is removed, the Christian truths found in Catholicism remain the same.

Just because some here, including me, “speak directly” doesn’t mean that we are less compassionate or less loving and it doesn’t mean that we are arrogant.

Additionally, because someone speaks directly doesn’t mean that they are not good Christians, good people or good Catholics. I act the same around my priests as I do my family and friends. I’m not real comfortable around people who “pretend” to be nice or polite because I know that there exist a lot of phonies out there and a lot of hypocrites and this is especially true with people on the internet.

I have encounter many people in my lifetime who were wolfs in sheep’s clothing. My experience has been that people who “find” religion and overnight they are overly “religious”, that there is a reason for it and that reason is sometimes guilt or simply a disguise of who they really are and how they really behave and they may not be very “religious” at all. (These comments are not directed to you personally, because I do not know you)

This is not always the case, I know that too. I know that there are some people who are genuinely nice people but I also know that for many, it is just an act. I do not know you or anyone else here so for the most part, my posts are generalizations based on the known differences between Catholicism and other non-Catholic Christian religions and not personal. To be “personal” we would all have to know each other “personally” and we don’t.

Here we don’t really know one another, we just know what each other posts, and that is why it is important to keep this discussion or argument truthful, theological and Biblical and not personal.

The question here is - “If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being Catholic”?

I too hope that you have a nice and safe Holy Week!

God Bless you.

 

[Jimmy_B]

In post #45 I typed -

As a Roman Catholic, I except Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, so by most “Protestant” standards (Saved by Faith Alone) I am “Saved”. If the “Protestants” are right, then I go to heaven, because “I have already done enough” and if the Catholic Church is right (and I am not in mortal sin) I have the hope of Salvation.

And I meant to type -

As a Roman Catholic, I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, so by most “Protestant” standards (Saved by Faith Alone) I am “Saved”. If the “Protestants” are right, then I go to heaven, because “I have already done enough” and if the Catholic Church is right (and I am not in mortal sin) I have the hope of Salvation.

---

Thank you…

 

[flameburns623]

Jimmy:

To answer your question with a fair measure of seriousness: I am a Catholic in the Anglican tradition and not a Roman Catholic because I am convinced that the Five Solas of the Reformation, properly understood, more perfectly represent what Christians from the beginning have always and everywhere believed and taught.

I am not a Roman Catholic because I do not accept the doctrine of Transubstantiation as a Scriptural nor reasonable explanation of the Real Presence of Christ in the service of Eucharist–though I do in fact believe that a Real Presence exists in the Eucharist.

I am not a Roman Catholic because I do not accept the Immaculate Conception, perpetual virginity, nor the Queenship of the Blessed Virgin Mary as Scriptural, reasonable, nor even useful to the Christian faith–to the contrary, I fear these doctrines distract from the worship of God and border upon outright idolatry.

I am not a Roman Catholic because I do not accept the Pope as absolute head of the Church on Earth because I do not believe that Scripture teaches such a doctrine–though I do think that Protestants ought to do better at giving His Holiness a hearing as primus inter pares. This is, as a respected leader among leaders, having no direct authority over the Church at large but having in any case a considerable weight of moral authority where his teachings and proclamations are properly informed by Scripture and sound reason.

I am not a Roman Catholic because I find the notion of the Treasury of Merits and of indulgences to be unscriptural and unreasonable, as well as fraught with potential for abuse–as was the case when Luther commenced his protest.

I could compound reasons but these give you the basic idea. Don’t think I am, therefore, a die-hard Protestant, here to troll around or to evangelize you or other Roman Catholics. I am here because much that is Roman Catholic IS appealing to me, IS reasonable, DOES seem to me to represent what Christians have everywhere and always believed. And certainly there is much in the contemporary Episcopalian Church which i view with dismay. I come here because I learn much from the discussions that go on here, even if I am not always convinced of the truth of Roman Catholicism.

You as about as good as anyone on the board at giving the stock Roman Catholic answers to these sorts of issues. Just understand that these issues remain a sticking point for me because the sorts of answers you find meaningful simply do not convince me. To some extent that is probably because of a difference in paradigms: on some subjective, not-easily-articulated level you bring to the discussion a prior commitment to Roman Catholicism as true while I bring to the discussion a prior conviction that it is mistaken. Because of whatever is going on at that subjective level, things that seem perfectly reasonable to you seem entirely unreasonable to me.

 

[reteeks21]

**If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 2 **

Note: The first thread titled, “If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic?” was closed because it had exceeded the maximum amount of posts (1,000). Continue your remarks on this topic, here.

For me, it is two-fold:

1.) I do not find in scripture any reason why praying to Mary is an important and/or necessary thing. I DO believe that Mary is an important figure, but I do not see where she is to be venerated like she is. I have no ill-will towards those who do venerate, but I just do not see a reason why that should be done.

2.) I find no grace in being fearful of committing the wrong sin. I find no grace in living in fear of not doing the right thing at all times. I do believe that works are important, but I do not think works are something we do to make sure God knows we are doing what we are supposed to do. There are, and should be a natural manifestation of faith.

I know the stock answers to these question from a RC point-of-view, so please do not spend time trying to bash me or convince with a long arguement. I have no desire to be told I am a heretic anymore (Jimmy B, that thought does not apply to you. Why? Because I know how you feel about your fellow Christian Brothers, which greatly appreciated and admired), and I do not want to start an arguement that will lead to heated words. This is simply an answer to an interesting question.

 

[nettythorpe]

**If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 2 **

Note: The first thread titled, “If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic?” was closed because it had exceeded the maximum amount of posts (1,000). Continue your remarks on this topic, here.

Hi Jimmy, I just looked at your web site… It’s great. I am a Catholic with an Evangelical Christian husband. Our two daughters are ‘Evangelical Catholics’ (they go to church with me one week and with their daddy the next week, and so on). I pray that my daughters will make good decisions in their lives as they get older, if you know what I mean?

 

[Swan]

Hello Swan,
Original Post Quotes Edited For Length
Please don’t use others here as an excuse. Are you implying that this (CAF Forums) is the only source of information on Catholicism? Have you been to the home page here at CAF? Have you ever read any Catholic Apologetic books?

I find it a amazing how many non-Catholics here attack lay Catholics on these forums as if the Catholics here are the only Catholics in the history of Catholicism who have ever defended their Catholic Faith. Many of these same non-Catholic Christians will not “attack” a “real” apologist, personally or address comments made by them but they are eager to attack lay Catholics here on a forum.

It seems to me that when some non-Catholics here do not want to or cannot defend their faith biblically or in any other civil way, that the “lack of compassion” or “they are so arrogant” argument is used. This is not a valid theological argument, this is a personal attack. To wrongly assert that someone is arrogant or that they lack compassion is an insult and a comment of this nature could be said to lack compassion towards the person it is directed to.

Just because someone defends their Catholic faith, doesn’t mean that they are not compassionate and it doesn’t mean that they are arrogant.

Just because some here, including me, “speak directly” doesn’t mean that we are less compassionate or less loving and it doesn’t mean that we are arrogant.

Additionally, because someone speaks directly doesn’t mean that they are not good Christians, good people or good Catholics. I act the same around my priests as I do my family and friends. I’m not real comfortable around people who “pretend” to be nice or polite because I know that there exist a lot of phonies out there and a lot of hypocrites and this is especially true with people on the internet.

This is not always the case, I know that too. I know that there are some people who are genuinely nice people but I also know that for many, it is just an act. I do not know you or anyone else here so for the most part, my posts are generalizations based on the known differences between Catholicism and other non-Catholic Christian religions and not personal. To be “personal” we would all have to know each other “personally” and we don’t.

Here we don’t really know one another, we just know what each other posts, and that is why it is important to keep this discussion or argument truthful, theological and Biblical and not personal.

I too hope that you have a nice and safe Holy Week!

God Bless you.

Hi Jimmy:

Let me see if I can clarify some of this for you. I was raised Baptist, I converted to RC in 1990 because I felt it was what God wanted me to do, though I did not agree with all the teachings (infallability, for example). I had studied the faith a great deal and read many a Catholic author on issues of spirituality. I am a Benedictine oblate, I almost became a nun. I have always been, and still am, a very spiritual person. My problem with so many on this forum is their seemigly tireless habit of judging folks who either do not agree with them or aren’t on the exact same place on the spiritual path. Sharing your thoughts, gentle reminders, etc. are one thing, but posts that talk about folks suffering hell fire, etc, can be very damaging to one’s faith in God, themselves and others. It does no one any good that I can see. It lacks compassion and mercy. Now I realize from experience and common sense that there are holier-than-thou types everywhere (I come from a Baptist background, remember?). But I think the reason I find it so damaging here is because it attacks my search and path in the Catholic church.

Now, let me add a couple of other points. I am going through a period of enourmous personal challenges which began almost a year ago. I am having a truly terrible time and am confused about many issues and I am sure my confusion and anxiety are reflected in my words. I do have faith that this will all work out, so I guess that is something.

As to the spiritual practices of others, I consider them none of my business. I do not presume to insert myself between my fellow man and God and I wish others would grant me the same courtesy (some do, some don’t). I think that making connections with other human beings is what life is all about. We all have something in common. I wish we could concentrate on the good and build relationships instead of tearing each other down - this type of activity not only damages others but damages our oun soul as well. I am not blaming others for my lack of spiritual perfection, I am simply pointing out that attacking and judging the spirituality of others is a dangerous and unnecessary thing to do - and giving examples to back up my feelings.

I realize that you are very sincere and I think that is wonderful. Spiritual issues have never been easy for me. I’m one of those folks who was born with questions. I agnoize a lot. I’ve done an intense dark night of the soul. So please know I, too am sincere.

Have a blessed Holy Week.

Peace

 

[justinthemartyr]

For me, it is two-fold:

1.) I do not find in scripture any reason why praying to Mary is an important and/or necessary thing. I DO believe that Mary is an important figure, but I do not see where she is to be venerated like she is. I have no ill-will towards those who do venerate, but I just do not see a reason why that should be done.

2.) I find no grace in being fearful of committing the wrong sin. I find no grace in living in fear of not doing the right thing at all times. I do believe that works are important, but I do not think works are something we do to make sure God knows we are doing what we are supposed to do. There are, and should be a natural manifestation of faith.

I know the stock answers to these question from a RC point-of-view, so please do not spend time trying to bash me or convince with a long arguement. I have no desire to be told I am a heretic anymore (Jimmy B, that thought does not apply to you. Why? Because I know how you feel about your fellow Christian Brothers, which greatly appreciated and admired), and I do not want to start an arguement that will lead to heated words. This is simply an answer to an interesting question.

I do not see in scripture where an “alter call” is important or necessary. I do not see in scripture where the use of electric guitars, pianos etc and using repetitive songs to make us “feel” the Holy Spirit is necessary.

If you are not fearful of committing the wrong sin, then you have not read scripture, starting with 1 john 5:16 and the following. Not to mention romans 11 and john 15 where we see that disobedience can cut us off from christ, the True Vine and that we only are regrafted through obedience. else we are withered and burned.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jimmy:

To answer your question with a fair measure of seriousness: I am a Catholic in the Anglican tradition and not a Roman Catholic because I am convinced that the Five Solas of the Reformation, properly understood, more perfectly represent what Christians from the beginning have always and everywhere believed and taught.

I am not a Roman Catholic because I do not accept the doctrine of Transubstantiation as a Scriptural nor reasonable explanation of the Real Presence of Christ in the service of Eucharist–though I do in fact believe that a Real Presence exists in the Eucharist.

I am not a Roman Catholic because I do not accept the Immaculate Conception, perpetual virginity, nor the Queenship of the Blessed Virgin Mary as Scriptural, reasonable, nor even useful to the Christian faith–to the contrary, I fear these doctrines distract from the worship of God and border upon outright idolatry.

I am not a Roman Catholic because I do not accept the Pope as absolute head of the Church on Earth because I do not believe that Scripture teaches such a doctrine–though I do think that Protestants ought to do better at giving His Holiness a hearing as primus inter pares. This is, as a respected leader among leaders, having no direct authority over the Church at large but having in any case a considerable weight of moral authority where his teachings and proclamations are properly informed by Scripture and sound reason.

I am not a Roman Catholic because I find the notion of the Treasury of Merits and of indulgences to be unscriptural and unreasonable, as well as fraught with potential for abuse–as was the case when Luther commenced his protest.

I could compound reasons but these give you the basic idea. Don’t think I am, therefore, a die-hard Protestant, here to troll around or to evangelize you or other Roman Catholics. I am here because much that is Roman Catholic IS appealing to me, IS reasonable, DOES seem to me to represent what Christians have everywhere and always believed. And certainly there is much in the contemporary Episcopalian Church which i view with dismay. I come here because I learn much from the discussions that go on here, even if I am not always convinced of the truth of Roman Catholicism.

You as about as good as anyone on the board at giving the stock Roman Catholic answers to these sorts of issues. Just understand that these issues remain a sticking point for me because the sorts of answers you find meaningful simply do not convince me. To some extent that is probably because of a difference in paradigms: on some subjective, not-easily-articulated level you bring to the discussion a prior commitment to Roman Catholicism as true while I bring to the discussion a prior conviction that it is mistaken. Because of whatever is going on at that subjective level, things that seem perfectly reasonable to you seem entirely unreasonable to me.

Hello flambrurns623, thank you for your response. I will do may best to answer some the questions found in your post (#50).

**You wrote, that your denomination, **“…more perfectly represent what Christians from the beginning have always and everywhere believed and Taught”

Is this based on the “Infallibility” of the person who founded your religion, or on your own Intellect and/or your own “Infallibility”? We have to be careful not to become “members” of the “religion of are own intellect”.

As a Roman Catholic or as a non-Catholic Christian, persons are by definition “required” to surrender to all of the doctrines and beliefs of the particular religion or denomination that they claim as their own; or by definition they have created a “new denomination”, in their own mind.

Being a member of a particular religion or denomination is not like being a member of a baseball team. Once you disagree with a belief or a rule-set in a particular religion, you are no longer by definition, a member of that “team”.

Christian “religions” and rule-sets are based on authority that they claim, “Comes from God”. God does not make mistakes.

If you claim to be “Anglican”, for example and you reject “parts’ or “beliefs” found in the Anglican religion, you are really rejecting “parts” of Christian “truths” and you are, by the definitions found in that particular denomination, rejecting God Himself.

I will try to answer all the questions found in your post (#50), one at a time. I found five identifiable questions of yours, that I will try to answer. Thank you for your post!

God Bless You!

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi Jimmy:

Let me see if I can clarify some of this for you. I was raised Baptist, I converted to RC in 1990 because I felt it was what God wanted me to do, though I did not agree with all the teachings (infallability, for example). I had studied the faith a great deal and read many a Catholic author on issues of spirituality. I am a Benedictine oblate, I almost became a nun. I have always been, and still am, a very spiritual person. My problem with so many on this forum is their seemigly tireless habit of judging folks who either do not agree with them or aren’t on the exact same place on the spiritual path. Sharing your thoughts, gentle reminders, etc. are one thing, but posts that talk about folks suffering hell fire, etc, can be very damaging to one’s faith in God, themselves and others. It does no one any good that I can see. It lacks compassion and mercy. Now I realize from experience and common sense that there are holier-than-thou types everywhere (I come from a Baptist background, remember?). But I think the reason I find it so damaging here is because it attacks my search and path in the Catholic church.

Now, let me add a couple of other points. I am going through a period of enourmous personal challenges which began almost a year ago. I am having a truly terrible time and am confused about many issues and I am sure my confusion and anxiety are reflected in my words. I do have faith that this will all work out, so I guess that is something.

As to the spiritual practices of others, I consider them none of my business. I do not presume to insert myself between my fellow man and God and I wish others would grant me the same courtesy (some do, some don’t). I think that making connections with other human beings is what life is all about. We all have something in common. I wish we could concentrate on the good and build relationships instead of tearing each other down - this type of activity not only damages others but damages our oun soul as well. I am not blaming others for my lack of spiritual perfection, I am simply pointing out that attacking and judging the spirituality of others is a dangerous and unnecessary thing to do - and giving examples to back up my feelings.

I realize that you are very sincere and I think that is wonderful. Spiritual issues have never been easy for me. I’m one of those folks who was born with questions. I agnoize a lot. I’ve done an intense dark night of the soul. So please know I, too am sincere.

Have a blessed Holy Week.

Peace

Hello Swan,

I hope that the difficult times that you are experiencing passes and I will pray for you. Reading the Imitation of Christ by Thomas a Kempis might help, so will reciting the Holy Rosary (especially the Sorrowful Mysteries). It has helped me and others I know put difficult times in perspective. A close friend of mine recently died from cancer. A few weeks before his passing I made him a Rosary and I gave him my book (the Imitation of Christ). He reconciled with God and the Roman Catholic Faith, and he found peace in his last days.

Thank you for your post.

God Bless You!

 

[flameburns623]

I will try to answer all the questions found in your post (#50), one at a time. I found five identifiable questions of yours, that I will try to answer. Thank you for your post!

God Bless You!

Hi Jimmy:

I didn’t actually have any questions: I just answered YOUR question.

As a Roman Catholic or as a non-Catholic Christian, persons are by definition “required” to surrender to all of the doctrines and beliefs of the particular religion or denomination that they claim as their own; or by definition they have created a “new denomination”, in their own mind.

Being a member of a particular religion or denomination is not like being a member of a baseball team. Once you disagree with a belief or a rule-set in a particular religion, you are no longer by definition, a member of that “team”.

Christian “religions” and rule-sets are based on authority that they claim, “Comes from God”. God does not make mistakes.

If you claim to be “Anglican”, for example and you reject “parts’ or “beliefs” found in the Anglican religion, you are really rejecting “parts” of Christian “truths” and you are, by the definitions found in that particular denomination, rejecting God Himself.

That is a profound misstatement as respects virtually any major Protestant denomination I am aware of, especially Episcopalianism which has ever and always had a ‘broad-church’ definition of itself. In most major Protestant denominations I am aware of, there is a narrow set of principles or practices which define the denomination as distinctive from other Protestant or Catholic denominations; there is a rather larger set of norms and believes which are broadly-based within the denomination, but with which some members take exception; and there are any number of things outside of those items about which Protestants are free to disagree within their denomination.

For that matter, even within the Roman Catholic Church there are any number of philosophic splits: Molinism versus Augustinianism, for example. One can in fact take exception to the Pope and/or to the current Magisterium on any number of issues, though one should only do so for grave reason and in light of clear basis for your disagreement based in Scripture and Sacred Tradition. (This in fact is what some Roman Catholics attempt to do when they argue for things such as married clergy, women priests, and/or greater latitude of choice for abortion: they point to evidences in Scripture and Tradition which suggest that the RCC could teach differently than they currently do. Whether or not you or I find such arguments convincing or not is beside the point: Catholics can and do make such arguments and do so without ceasing to be Catholics).

Obviously if they go beyond a certain point, the Church reserves the right to exercise it’s authority. One can can personally believe that there is reason for the Church to allow women to be priests. One can argue publicly for that belief. One could even teach such a doctrine in a secular university or in a Catholic college or university where it is clear that one is expressing one’s own private opinions. BUT one can NOT teach such a doctrine as being official Catholic doctrine in a Catholic seminary in most cases; and if one elects to participate in the ordination of a woman, one can be subject to excommunication.

 

[LaMar]

Why aren’t you Catholic? Tell the truth.

Why would you assume anyone would have a reason?

Most people are who they are because they were spoonfed a lot of propaganda by their parents. Had I not been born a Mormon, I wouldn’t be in any way interested in it as an adult. Knowing what I know about the LDS church, I wouldn’t let the Mormon missionaries on my property, most likely.

When the Roman Empire adopted Christianity, it went down the tubes almost immediately. What remained of it moved to Constantinople and did fine…until they adopted Christianity later, and then those poor suckers went down the tubes too.

What does Catholicism do today? I see a lot of sexism, homophobia, pedophilia committed by priests and nuns on a worldwide scale, involvement in the holocaust, et cetera.

The Catholic Church has retarded the progress of the world and reduces every society it takes hold of to third-world status almost immediately. Every time there’s a reform movement that helps Catholics (Luther, Liberation Theology) it’s put down immediately from the top. Had it not been for the Holy See, humanity probably woulda touched down on the moon around 1200 CE and split the atom shortly afterward.

So, maybe you should ask yourself why anyone would become a Catholic? It’d be like joining the Scientologists or Snake Handlers. No thanks to the offer of more insanity. I’ve had my fill already.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hi Jimmy:

I didn’t actually have any questions: I just answered YOUR question.

That is a profound misstatement as respects virtually any major Protestant denomination I am aware of, especially Episcopalianism which has ever and always had a ‘broad-church’ definition of itself. In most major Protestant denominations I am aware of, there is a narrow set of principles or practices which define the denomination as distinctive from other Protestant or Catholic denominations; there is a rather larger set of norms and believes which are broadly-based within the denomination, but with which some members take exception; and there are any number of things outside of those items about which Protestants are free to disagree within their denomination.

For that matter, even within the Roman Catholic Church there are any number of philosophic splits: Molinism versus Augustinianism, for example. One can in fact take exception to the Pope and/or to the current Magisterium on any number of issues, though one should only do so for grave reason and in light of clear basis for your disagreement based in Scripture and Sacred Tradition. (This in fact is what some Roman Catholics attempt to do when they argue for things such as married clergy, women priests, and/or greater latitude of choice for abortion: they point to evidences in Scripture and Tradition which suggest that the RCC could teach differently than they currently do. Whether or not you or I find such arguments convincing or not is beside the point: Catholics can and do make such arguments and do so without ceasing to be Catholics).

Obviously if they go beyond a certain point, the Church reserves the right to exercise it’s authority. One can can personally believe that there is reason for the Church to allow women to be priests. One can argue publicly for that belief. One could even teach such a doctrine in a secular university or in a Catholic college or university where it is clear that one is expressing one’s own private opinions. BUT one can NOT teach such a doctrine as being official Catholic doctrine in a Catholic seminary in most cases; and if one elects to participate in the ordination of a woman, one can be subject to excommunication.

Hi flameburns623,

I will not dissect or disassemble your entire exegesis here. Although, if I had more time I would like to.

I do though, want to point out that your comments here ignore Early Christian and Protestant Christian history and your beliefs here are in error.

Those who are observant or “practicing” Catholics are not “one-man” Ecumenical Counsels; self appointed Popes or the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church.

Your comments ignore a specific process and wrongly assume that every Catholic or non-Catholic Christian has the “authority” to change specific beliefs, doctrine or dogma that they disagree with and they do not.

Additionally, your comments here do not apply to any official “church" doctrine or dogma of any named “religion” that I am aware of.

Every denomination has a "list of” non-negotiable or “Infallible” beliefs. This is the reason that they broke from another denomination in the first place. It is because they disagreed with the prior ‘religion” on doctrine or dogma. If this were not true, there would be one Christian religion today and there is not.

Please provide the source for your comments here.

Moreover, different Catholic Orders do not represent a “split” from the Roman Catholic Church.

It is true that some Catholics act and/or speak “outside” the Church and when they do; their actions place them, outside the Church. I hope this helps.

God Bless You.

 

[nettythorpe]

Why would you assume anyone would have a reason?

Most people are who they are because they were spoonfed a lot of propaganda by their parents. Had I not been born a Mormon, I wouldn’t be in any way interested in it as an adult. Knowing what I know about the LDS church, I wouldn’t let the Mormon missionaries on my property, most likely.

When the Roman Empire adopted Christianity, it went down the tubes almost immediately. What remained of it moved to Constantinople and did fine…until they adopted Christianity later, and then those poor suckers went down the tubes too.

What does Catholicism do today? I see a lot of sexism, homophobia, pedophilia committed by priests and nuns on a worldwide scale, involvement in the holocaust, et cetera.

The Catholic Church has retarded the progress of the world and reduces every society it takes hold of to third-world status almost immediately. Every time there’s a reform movement that helps Catholics (Luther, Liberation Theology) it’s put down immediately from the top. Had it not been for the Holy See, humanity probably woulda touched down on the moon around 1200 CE and split the atom shortly afterward.

So, maybe you should ask yourself why anyone would become a Catholic? It’d be like joining the Scientologists or Snake Handlers. No thanks to the offer of more insanity. I’ve had my fill already.

I am proud to be a Catholic and am a great believer in Christian unity. I don’t think it is fair to say that the Catholic church has retarded the world. I think it is upsetting to be compared to scientology and snake handlers. p.s. Just because the devil appeared as a snake God still loves the snake enough to continue with it’s being… It is one of God’s creations.