If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 2

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jay29 said:
Jesus NEVER taught tolerance of sin. He told sinners to “sin no more” Does your Church? Nope would be the answer. That is why it has no moral compass at all.

The Word of God has some VERY hard teachings. Some things your church glosses over and puts aside. Bigotry? Nope. The Word of God is not bigotry.

I do, according to HIS WORD and not how I wish His Words were! Amen!
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Jay - you claim you live according to HIS word, but Jesus (Him) never specifically mentions abortion or homosexuality in the Bible. Since He is silent on these matters, how do you know what Jesus would think about those practices? Are you clairvoyant? Who is the HIM whose word you are living by?

If withholding sacraments from the people who need it the most (homosexuals and those facing the awful choice of abortion) is not bigotry, what is it? Spite? Do you think homosexuals choose to be that way? That has to be the hardest type of lifestyle, and they are obviously in need of spiritual support, yet many that share your views turn their backs on them. How Christ-like is that?

It saddens and sickens me that the supposed “One True Church” is more interested in forcing its views on all outsiders than showing compassion for those who most need it. Jesus Christ was the most compassionate of men, yet His supposed Church kicks out the very people who need Him most!!! You are so interested in pointing fingers and assigning blame that you lose sight of the tortured souls that you are trying to place outside the body of the Church.

Jesus was very specific about his requirements for salvation; John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” That is the real criteria for membership in the body of the Faith, not beliefs about abortion, homosexuality, or whether you have to wear long pants to church in the summer.

Indeed, the Word of God has some very Hard teachings, one of which is that, as stated in Matthew 6:14, one has to forgive other’s transgressions in order to be forgiven by God. It is sad that many are too busy condemning others to give much thought to understanding or forgiving them.

God Bless!
 
Emerald, what about the words of St Paul that partaking of the sacraments unworthily brings about condemnation?

Murder is a Mortal Sin.
 
emeraldcoast said:
Jay - you claim you live according to HIS word, but Jesus (Him) never specifically mentions abortion or homosexuality in the Bible. Since He is silent on these matters, how do you know what Jesus would think about those practices? Are you clairvoyant? Who is the HIM whose word you are living by?
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Jesus (HIM) and His Father are ONE. Where the Father spoke in the Old Testament, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were there also. The Holy Trinity ALWAYS existed, which included JESUS, “before the creation of the world”

Are we to throw away the Ten Commandments because Jesus never said them in the flesh? (He did say them in the Spirit)??? :eek:

Besides homosexuality goes against the Laws of Nature - God’s Laws of Creation. He never intended to penises or two vaginae to go together!!!
emeraldcoast said:
If withholding sacraments from the people who need it the most (homosexuals and those facing the awful choice of abortion) is not bigotry, what is it? Spite? Do you think homosexuals choose to be that way? That has to be the hardest type of lifestyle, and they are obviously in need of spiritual support, yet many that share your views turn their backs on them. How Christ-like is that?
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ANYBODY who is in a state of mortal sin, PRACTICING homosexuals and those that procure an abortion without repenting, have no business receiving the Eucharist. They are not worthy according to St. Paul. St. Paul condemns homosexuality…
emeraldcoast said:
It saddens and sickens me that the supposed “One True Church” is more interested in forcing its views on all outsiders than showing compassion for those who most need it. Jesus Christ was the most compassionate of men, yet His supposed Church kicks out the very people who need Him most!!! You are so interested in pointing fingers and assigning blame that you lose sight of the tortured souls that you are trying to place outside the body of the Church.
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People must conform to God’s rules, not conform God’s rules to the way they want to live.
emeraldcoast said:
Jesus was very specific about his requirements for salvation; John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” That is the real criteria for membership in the body of the Faith, not beliefs about abortion, homosexuality, or whether you have to wear long pants to church in the summer.
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** Committing serious/mortal sins is NOT believing in Jesus Christ and what He stated about sin**:

**Matthew 5:29

** If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 13:41

41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

(Do horrible doctrines cause sin???)

Matthew 18:6

6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Matthew 18:7

7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

(Do horrible doctrines cause sin???)

This is just the Gospel of Mathew. Now what were you saying about Jesus??? I know what I was saying…Jesus will never accept sin because ALL sin is EVIL.
emeraldcoast said:
Indeed, the Word of God has some very Hard teachings, one of which is that, as stated in Matthew 6:14, one has to forgive other’s transgressions in order to be forgiven by God. It is sad that many are too busy condemning others to give much thought to understanding or forgiving them.

God Bless!
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Without repentance of sin FIRST, there can be no forgiveness from God. Every sin must be repented (change of ways).

I do forgive others, but those others need to REPENT.
 
I will continue with my bold and answer your blue
emeraldcoast said:
Just for clarity, I will bold the statements I am referring to and post my responses in blue.

Excuse me but…the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ and the Church still upholds HIS teachings, so, the fact that the Catholic Church can deny someone the Sacraments is a fact. (They don’t want to play by HIS rules, then they need to go elsewhere.) No one in the Catholic Church deny’s anyone the right to Worship HIM, and if they are worshipping HIM instead of the false gods of their own making they will be able to receive the Sacraments.
You can make a case that the Catholic Church, since before the fall of the Western Roman Empire, strayed from the path of the church as founded by Jesus. If the Church was not full of abuses, why would Luther take such a chance and openly dissent? A lot of risk in his actions - few rewards. Many non-Catholics (not necessarily me) feel that only by NOT being a Catholic can you follow Jesus’ true path. ALL denominations claim (with some truth) that they uphold Jesus’ teachings.
All denominations probably do have some truth, but the Catholic Church is THE CHURCH, not a denomination. We know that most have the Holy Bible and therefore have Jesus (HIS WORD, however, we have the fullness of TRUTH, Jesus HIMSELF

Yes, as a matter of fact, the Catholic Church does give them the Spiritual guidance that they need, they obviously reject it though. Otherwise why would they go elsewhere??
If spirtual guidance is “my way or the highway - straight to hell” - I guess that is true. Not a lot of Christ-like forgiving or support in that attitude.
All most would have to do is go to Confession/Reconcilation/Penance in order to be “right” with God, God knows their heart and if they are truly repentant or not. Some people just chose to do other than that/ So, you saying my way or the highway is like saying, “Well Jesus, I understood what you expected of me but I just didn’t really want to do it that way” (where is the repentance in that? I’m sorry I am the way I am but hey you made me that way??? I think not.) A change is required and until they make that change why would they receive the Sacraments which are to be taken worthily??

They aren’t excluded from attending Mass, the teachings of the Church, the Bible studies, etc…, they exclude themselves.
They are excluded from the sacraments - the most important parts of the Faith. Why should they attend a church where they can’t receive the sacraments and their lifestyle and choices (some aspects of which are beyond their control) are condemned regularly? Does that make sense?

What would make sense is to pick up their Cross and follow HIM

**I have never seen any evidence that they condoned that!! **
This link is to Boston Globe article that highlights some of the issues regarding the cover-ups and omissions in the Boston area. boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/scandal/
You can google around the web and find that these instances were by no means isolated to that area. Some might say that is old news, but not to the victims.
I repeat, none of that shows where they CONDONED it. By the way, where is the forgiveness of the victims? Aren’t they also required to forgive?
…
God Bless!
**God bless you too:D **
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jay29 said:
Jesus (HIM) and His Father are ONE. Where the Father spoke in the Old Testament, Jesus and the Holy Spirit were there also. The Holy Trinity ALWAYS existed, which included JESUS, “before the creation of the world”

Are we to throw away the Ten Commandments because Jesus never said them in the flesh? (He did say them in the Spirit)??? :eek:

Besides homosexuality goes against the Laws of Nature - God’s Laws of Creation. He never intended to penises or two vaginae to go together!!!

ANYBODY who is in a state of mortal sin, PRACTICING homosexuals and those that procure an abortion without repenting, have no business receiving the Eucharist. They are not worthy according to St. Paul. St. Paul condemns homosexuality…

People must conform to God’s rules, not conform God’s rules to the way they want to live.

** Committing serious/mortal sins is NOT believing in Jesus Christ and what He stated about sin**:

Matthew 5:29

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 13:41

41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.

(Do horrible doctrines cause sin???)

Matthew 18:6

6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Matthew 18:7

7"Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

(Do horrible doctrines cause sin???)

This is just the Gospel of Mathew. Now what were you saying about Jesus??? I know what I was saying…Jesus will never accept sin because ALL sin is EVIL.

Without repentance of sin FIRST, there can be no forgiveness from God. Every sin must be repented (change of ways).

I do forgive others, but those others need to REPENT.
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Jay, you speak of forgiveness and repentance, but you insist on the later before you even consider the former. Did Jesus minister to sinners only after they had repented, or did he seek to help those still in sin? Only through the Lord’s forgiveness can the poor tortured souls we are talking about achieve peace and salvation. All of us have to seek and receive this forgiveness in our own hearts and souls – no Priest, no Church, and no catechism can do this for us. Your and my forgiveness and approval doesn’t count for the salvation of others, but leads only to our own salvation. You exclude homosexuals from the body of the Church ostensibly because of their sins and seek to force their repentance, but in reality their only makes you feel more “holy” and better about yourself. Do you actually think excluding homosexuals from full membership in the Church will make them embrace your ideas? Why would they remain in a Church that condemns them for feelings they can’t help having and that most of us can never understand? We probably should just agree to disagree. I want to focus on forgiveness and hope that permitting sinners to fully worship will allow them to find redemption. You want to use the tenants of your faith to force their compliance. I just don’t see any common ground. All of us are sinners - we all fall short. Why should only particular sinnners be excluded from full membership in the Church?

One of the best sermons I heard reminded us to “keep our eyes on our own paper” and not worry about judging the sins of those sitting next to us in the pew. This seems like good counsel in this instance.

God Bless!
 
emeraldcoast said:
Jay - you claim you live according to HIS word, but Jesus (Him) never specifically mentions abortion or homosexuality in the Bible. Since He is silent on these matters, how do you know what Jesus would think about those practices?
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Hello emeraldcoast,

That is why Jesus created His Church here on earth, the Catholic Church, which was never intended to be “the religion of a book”. You make an excellent point here against sola scriptura, or “bible-alone”, thank you.

Peace 🙂
 
Jimmy_B said:
Hello emeraldcoast,

That is why Jesus created His Church here on earth, the Catholic Church, which was never intended to be “the religion of a book”. You make an excellent point here against sola scriptura, or “bible-alone”, thank you.

Peace 🙂
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Thanks Jimmy! I am sure that you have heard of the three legged stool when one from the Episcopal Church speaks of their faith. The “Three-Legged Stool” represents Scripture, Tradition, and Reason—the three of which have formed the basis of our doctrines, beliefs, and policies for the practice of our faith within the church.

God Bless!
 
emeraldcoast said:
Thanks Jimmy! I am sure that you have heard of the three legged stool when one from the Episcopal Church speaks of their faith. The “Three-Legged Stool” represents Scripture, Tradition, and Reason—the three of which have formed the basis of our doctrines, beliefs, and policies for the practice of our faith within the church.

God Bless!
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Hello again emeraldcoast,

Yes I have, when I read or first heard the term “three legged stool”, it was as a Roman Catholic… but I know what you are saying.

Peace 🙂
 
Jimmy_B said:
Hello emeraldcoast,

That is why Jesus created His Church here on earth, the Catholic Church, which was never intended to be “the religion of a book”. You make an excellent point here against sola scriptura, or “bible-alone”, thank you.

Peace 🙂
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A Church is ran by man. Men are not perfect therefore is susceptible to hate. If hate is embedded within the Church, then the Church hates and everyone loses. So if an idea is presented and it’s stated to be the “Word of God” that idea becomes doctrine and after enough time it becomes embedded as law almost as a blueprint in each new generation to where we no longer question but except that it must be true.

Now this could happen to any religion and as we have seen from other posters we are told that to not follow is to not love Jesus. It’s not that we don’t love Jesus but that blueprint just doesn’t add up between what may be the word of God to what is the word of a Church. This is the issue I have always had with structured religion. For most that blueprint which could be love, kindness, or even possibly hate but speaks clearly to them with no doubt but for others including myself these certain blueprints will never speak clearly and always leaves doubt.

There is no right answer. There is only faith.
 
Here (bottom of the page) is an example of the “Catholic”, “Three-legged stool”, the Bible, the Church (Magisterium) and Sacred tradition. This is a Catholic term with a new twist, where apparently, “reason” has replaced the Church.
 
emeraldcoast said:
Thanks Jimmy! I am sure that you have heard of the three legged stool when one from the Episcopal Church speaks of their faith. The “Three-Legged Stool” represents Scripture, Tradition, and Reason—the three of which have formed the basis of our doctrines, beliefs, and policies for the practice of our faith within the church.

God Bless!
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The three-legged stool is the Magisterium (the teaching office of the Church), Scripture and Sacred Tradition. I guess the Episcopalians deceided to leave out the teaching office and go with their reasoning, right? Sometimes we reason wrong. I will continue to go with the teaching office of the Church that Jesus founded. By the way, I noticed you didn’t respond to my post. Was there a reason you were ignoring it or did you not see it?
 
Iwesshome said:
A Church is ran by man. Men are not perfect therefore is susceptible to hate. If hate is embedded within the Church, then the Church hates and everyone loses. So if an idea is presented and it’s stated to be the “Word of God” that idea becomes doctrine and after enough time it becomes embedded as law almost as a blueprint in each new generation to where we no longer question but except that it must be true.

Now this could happen to any religion and as we have seen from other posters we are told that to not follow is to not love Jesus. It’s not that we don’t love Jesus but that blueprint just doesn’t add up between what may be the word of God to what is the word of a Church. This is the issue I have always had with structured religion. For most that blueprint which could be love, kindness, or even possibly hate but speaks clearly to them with no doubt but for others including myself these certain blueprints will never speak clearly and always leaves doubt.

There is no right answer. There is only faith.
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Hello Iwesshome and welcome to CAF.

The Bible came after the Church, the church approved the Bible.

The Church came after Pentacost.

God is a just and loving God and the Catholic Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

I hope this helps

Peace 🙂
 
Let me begin by saying that there are many many many things about the Roman Catholic Church that I greatly admire and respect, and in many ways, I think I would be very happy to become a Roman Catholic. That said, there are several reasons that I do not.
  1. The Lutheran Church, for all its foibles and failings, formed me in the faith and nurtured me with Word and Sacrament. I have encountered God in profound ways in the Eucharistic Meal, and in the preached Word, and to become Roman Catholic, I would have to cease believing that what I was fed at the Altar in that Lutheran Church was truly the body and blood of Christ. This I cannot do.
  2. I have spent many years studying Church history, and have paid particular attention to the history leading up to various schisms. While I do not think that breaking from the Church is generally ideal, I see in all of these schisms (whether the Great Schism, or the Lutheran Reformation) a hardness of heart and arrogance-- on BOTH sides. Therefore, while I see the state of disunity as sinful, I believe there to be shared responsibility in the decisions which led to such a state.
  3. Papal infallibility. This is related to the previous reason. One of the things I do appreciate about Lutheranism, is the fact that it acknowledges the reality of tensions inherent in the Christian life. The struggle to live the life of faith, the struggle to understand those mysteries beyond our understanding, the struggle to discern God’s will. Lutherans acknowledge that the Church has both a human and a Divine character-- and that on this side of the kingdom-- it will continue to be a struggle. Sure, I’d love for everything to be black-and-white, but that’s not my experience of the world. It’s messier than that.
  4. Music. No kidding. This is perhaps not the best reason for my remaining a Lutheran, but as a musician, I pray best through music, and I find it hard to concentrate in spoken masses, and frustrated with trite hymnody. I know this is a gross generalization, and I am sure that some Roman Catholic Churches have a wonderful musical tradition, but when I was living in Europe, I attended dozens of Roman Catholic Churches (which I prefer to more Protestant denominations, when a Lutheran or Anglican church isn’t around), and in a year, I only attended one church with any congregational singing, and it was a Spanish version of something like Kum-ba-ya accompanied by guitars.
As a rule, we Lutherans are have a high respect for music, with a wonderful musical tradition- the German Chorales, Bach’s organ music, great hymnody. People in Lutheran Churches are willing to actually sing robustly-- whether they hymnody, or the sanctus, or the angus dei.

Perhaps this seems too superficial of a reason, but it certainly makes a difference in how I encounter God in the context of worship, so I think that it is not insignificant.
 
allhers said:
The three-legged stool is the Magisterium (the teaching office of the Church), Scripture and Sacred Tradition. I guess the Episcopalians deceided to leave out the teaching office and go with their reasoning, right? Sometimes we reason wrong. I will continue to go with the teaching office of the Church that Jesus founded. By the way, I noticed you didn’t respond to my post. Was there a reason you were ignoring it or did you not see it?
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The “reason” in the three-legged stool for Episcopalians does not have to be individual rationality. It can be communal discernment, including a teaching magisterium. My goodness. Look at Thomas Aquinas or Saint Augustine-- their works are not simply a combination of tidbits from scripture and tradition. They are also built on secular philosophy. The only difference is that the Magisterial Authority is less clearly defined for non-RC Church bodies. (Which has both pros and cons).
 
I am not Catholic, because of somethings that happened/ I learned when I went to RCIA.
 
Hi LaMar-

I’d like to address your objection to the Catholic Church regarding child sex abuse and other abuses by religious within the Church:

Unfortunately, most people are unaware that the number of cases of child sex abuse is higher among Protestant denominations than the entire Catholic Church:

friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/15/number-crunching-church-abuse-reports/

Loading…

catholicknight.blogspot.com

Secondly, percentage-wise, God’s Holy Catholic Church is still doing better than even Christ: He HAND-PICKED twelve apostles and one of them turned out to be evil. That’s 1/12th. !!!

You said the Catholic Church brought all these problems into the world (or something to that effect), but clearly you are mistaken: It was SIN that brought this evil into the world. As the Bible says, God will allow “the weeds to grow up with the wheat” but they will be burned at judgement. Peace and Christ be with you, LaMar.
jofa
 
I salute you with the love of God. I was a catholic and the reason why i left and joined the protestands is exactly what you are trying to explain out of understanding. May the Lord open literally your spiritual eyes and ears to see and here what the Lord is saying and doing.
father george has quated John 14:6 ‘’ I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AND LIFE NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THRU ME’’ i believe it is clear that its not achurch being the way or truth or life but Jesus.
reponding to bro jimmy who is giving 42 reason to support catholic by scriptures is just mistaken,why? all the verses you quated ,non has mentioned anything like catholic church.
Lastly, am not against any catholic beliver but i pity them for just believing church doctrines instead of believing the true God our creator.you dwell on history until God sounds historic and far away from you. you go to church but you are never changed.
you who asked this question, ithink you are seeing things oppositely because for many years i have been acatholic, the holyspirit has never convicted me of my sins;this dint prove that am sinless or worthy before God, it is adangerous state for you to keep sinning and be happy that God is doing nothing about it. No! for the wages of sin is death enternally, no enternal life for you. but when you say and try to justify the compromise to sin by saying all are sinners, becareful.
The observation you saw in protestand church should not make you to judge all protestands but in truth ,all sins you observed in that baptist church are infact more manifest in catholic church where you can do whatever you think or feel is right and yet go to church and still never change even after the church. Most of my catholic colligues cant even remember the book that was read in church some few minates after church, how then can they apply what they had learned. God bless you and am praying for you not to quite catholic church but to know God and the gift of salvation.
 
jofa said:
Hi LaMar-

I’d like to address your objection to the Catholic Church regarding child sex abuse and other abuses by religious within the Church:

Unfortunately, most people are unaware that the number of cases of child sex abuse is higher among Protestant denominations than the entire Catholic Church:

friendlyatheist.com/2007/06/15/number-crunching-church-abuse-reports/

The Catholic Knight: Sex-Abuse of Minors Higher in Protestant Churches

Secondly, percentage-wise, God’s Holy Catholic Church is still doing better than even Christ: He HAND-PICKED twelve apostles and one of them turned out to be evil. That’s 1/12th. !!!

You said the Catholic Church brought all these problems into the world (or something to that effect), but clearly you are mistaken: It was SIN that brought this evil into the world. As the Bible says, God will allow “the weeds to grow up with the wheat” but they will be burned at judgement. Peace and Christ be with you, LaMar.
jofa
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You cannot be serious. Please tell me you were joking by saying that the church has done better than Jesus did.
 
alliez said:
Let me begin by saying that there are many many many things about the Roman Catholic Church that I greatly admire and respect, and in many ways, I think I would be very happy to become a Roman Catholic. That said, there are several reasons that I do not. * * *
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Alliez,

A very good post.👍

I, too, have a great deal of respect for the Catholic Church even if I don’t agree with every aspect of its teachings. As a life-long Lutheran, my roots are very deep and I have yet to be convinced that the Catholic Church has the truth to a greater degree than we Lutherans (nor do we have it to a greater degree than the Catholic Church). The devil is in the details, some of which you expounded on so eloquently.
 
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