If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 3

[Jimmy_B]

**If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 3 **

Quote:
Jimmy B. wrote -

Are you ready for some truth?; most people don’t like the truth so much?

The reason I asked this question, is that I find many Christians somewhat disingenuous when it comes to the real reason, or reasons that they are not Catholic, or “no longer Catholic”.

I feel that many of the Catholic dissenters here who love to quote Bible verses and argue against Catholicism, have a personal reason for not being Catholic and not a biblical reason.

That is why you can never get anywhere with some of these people. I have also found this to be true in my real-life contacts and conversations with Catholic dissenters.

For example, a vast majority of people that I have met over the years who say that they left the Catholic Church, for this reason or that, it turns out, had no religion in their lives what so ever, for many years.

They didn’t leave the Catholic Church on Sunday to become a “Born-Again” on Monday. They left the Catholic Church on Sunday and became a “Born-Again” twenty or thirty years later.

Some left their Faith, turned their back on God and did as they pleased, without guilt, what a life.

They where having “fun”, living a promiscuous lifestyle and guess what, the guilt finally cought up with them (sin has a way of doing that, don’t you know). They were just full of sin and at the point in which they felt it was time to “go back to church” and it was only then that they discovered that the Roman Catholic Church (actually that God) had a problem with their previous years of bad behavior and now their existed a hurdle or two to overcome; and confession can be pretty humbling.

One thing leads to another and before you know it, these same people are now “former Catholics” and bible scholars, not to mention an authority on the Catholic religion, almost over-night. “It’s a miracle!”

It’s not a miracle, it’s disingenuous and hypocritical. Moreover, arguing now against Catholicism is a way for them to have God on their terms instead of His terms and to make them feel better about themselves.

There isn’t’ anything wrong with experiencing guilt. We all sin and we all feel guilt, it is the human condition, welcome to life.

Here is some more reality; Many of these “on-fire” Christians who are bound and determined to “save” all us Catholics, it turns out, if the truth be known, would probably be Catholic today if it wasn’t for the three or four marriages, which occurred in the interim period, during their “non practicing, “Christian” years”, before they were on fire…

I also know of many other personal, rather than biblical reasons why many are not Catholic, however there are too many to list here. Don’t get me wrong, I love all my Christian brothers and sisters, but like an alcoholic, you have to admit you have a problem before you can seek a cure.

Why aren’t you Catholic? Tell the truth.

Note:

“If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic -1?”

And

“If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic -2?”

Were closed because, they both exceeded the maximum number of posts.

Please, continue your remarks on this topic, here.

 

[BrianH]

It’s the “tell the truth” part that gets me. I would think people do tell the truth around here. Why would anyone lie to people they don’t even know? What would be the reason?

 

[Robbinson]

I’m running out of reasons

But the residual reasons I’m still grapling with:

1. Veneration of Mary approximating worship. I believe in her spiritual purity, grace and special place in our hearts - but struggle with what appears to be close to, if not, worship.
2. Necessity of all sacraments for salvation. I’m actually drawn to the sacraments (maybe that is telling me something), but coming from a Protestant perspective, its difficult to get over verses in scripture which tell us that we can be saved through faith in Christ and nothing suggesting that works/sacraments are necessary for salvation (easier to understand the necessity for sanctification).
3. Infallibility - that’s a tough one as to err is human and we have all witnessed errors within the Church (even though, overall, it is a Holy and awesome body).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Jimmy_B]

Here is the link to - ”If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being Catholic (1)”

Here is the link to - ”If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being Catholic-2”

 

[Mannyfit75]

Here is the link to - ”If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being Catholic (1)”

Here is the link to - ”If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being Catholic-2”

Why do you like to do this? It kinda gets boring real fast.

 

[Jimmy_B]

It’s the “tell the truth” part that gets me. I would think people do tell the truth around here. Why would anyone lie to people they don’t even know? What would be the reason?

Hello BrianH,

So, you don’t think that there are any non-Catholics or "former Catholics” who bad-mouth the Catholic Church here, for personal, rather than biblical or theological reasons.

Sometimes, when hear an "ex-Catholic” go on and on, about things like, “Catholics worship Mary”, for example, I roll my eyes, because I know the person (I even have some in my own family) and I know that it is because of their marriage situation, or some other reason that they are no longer practicing Catholics.

In my opinion, they are just repeating anti-Catholic talking points, to make themselves “feel good” or because they don’t know any better.

The funny thing is that when you ask these people, how long it has been since they have attended any church, prior to their “decision” to “leave the Catholic Church”; the answer was is usually, many years.

Moreover, when you confront them and ask them, for example, “Did you ever worship Mary when you were Catholic?” or “When you were a Catholic, did you know anyone who worshiped Mary?” They reply, that they didn’t worship Mary or know anybody that worshiped Mary…but “Catholics worship Mary”…

Now, come on, are you trying to tell that this type of behavior isn’t disingenuous doesn’t ever occur? I have heard it many times, with my own ears…

Note: many of my comment here are of a general nature.

There is nothing wrong with keeping people honest…is there?

Thank you for your post.

Peace.

 

[BrianH]

Hello BrianH,

So, you don’t think that there are any non-Catholics or "former Catholics” who bad-mouth the Catholic Church here, for personal, rather than biblical or theological reasons.

Sometimes, when hear an "ex-Catholic” go on and on, about things like, “Catholics worship Mary”, for example, I roll my eyes, because I know the person (I even have some in my own family) and I know that it is because of their marriage situation, or some other reason that they are no longer practicing Catholics.

In my opinion, they are just repeating anti-Catholic talking points, to make themselves “feel good” or because they don’t know any better.

The funny thing is that when you ask these people, how long it has been since they have attended any church, prior to their “decision” to “leave the Catholic Church”; the answer was is usually, many years.

Moreover, when you confront them and ask them, for example, “Did you ever worship Mary when you were Catholic?” or “When you were a Catholic, did you know anyone who worshiped Mary?” They reply, that they didn’t worship Mary or know anybody that worshiped Mary…but “Catholics worship Mary”…

Now, come on, are you trying to tell that this type of behavior isn’t disingenuous doesn’t ever occur? I have heard it many times, with my own ears…

Note: many of my comment here are of a general nature.

There is nothing wrong with keeping people honest…is there?

Thank you for your post.

Peace.

We run in different crowds. I see that now. Take care.
BH

 

[Jimmy_B]

Why do you like to do this? It kinda gets boring real fast.

Maybe…maybe not

 

[Jimmy_B]

We run in different crowds. I see that now. Take care.
BH

Hello again BrianH,

Yeah, you are probably right, you are a United Methodist and I am a Roman Catholic, so it is probably more likely that I would have more “former Catholic” family and friends.

God Bless you.

 

[wmscott]

**If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 3 **

Why aren’t you Catholic? Tell the truth.

Note:

“If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic -1?”

And

“If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic -2?”

Were closed because, they both exceeded the maximum number of posts.

Please, continue your remarks on this topic, here.

Hi Jimmy B, your question “If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic?” can go off in many directions. The most common is about Catholic beliefs and devotions. However, I think there is a much deeper although simpler answer. I think it is a cultural and “birth rite” (for a lack of a better term) situation that is the reason for being who they are and what they believe.

As a former Baptist, I will draw on that background. Baptist’s in the south being brought up in a strong Baptist household and community know, eat, live, breath, and preach the Baptist faith from a scriptural point of reference because that is the only truth the know. It is ingrained from birth. They deny Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority of the CC. This goes for almost every other denomination. Theirs is the one true faith and everything else is false, evil, or a cult. All of which the Catholic Church has been accused of and what some of us in reverse also.

Most know almost nothing of what the Catholic Church really is. They are for all intents and purposes the one true religion. Nevertheless, you cannot blame them though, it is ingrained from early on and to have to admit that everything you grew up with is false is a hard thing to do, it turns their world inside out and upside down. To admit that the Catholic Church is right is to admit that their faith is wrong. Imagine if you had to admit that all you know as Catholic is false… how do you think this would feel to you and what would your reactions be. You would fight tooth and nail to prove them wrong.

The issues I have are:

1. Anti-Catholic rhetoric being taught from the pulpit and in the Sunday schools.
2. It seems that anti-Catholicism is an openly acceptable form of prejudice today.

The best thing we can do as Catholics is to pray for our separated brethren, and lead and live by example.

 

[bklynbrat]

I’m running out of reasons

But the residual reasons I’m still grapling with:

1. Veneration of Mary approximating worship. I believe in her spiritual purity, grace and special place in our hearts - but struggle with what appears to be close to, if not, worship.
2. Necessity of all sacraments for salvation. I’m actually drawn to the sacraments (maybe that is telling me something), but coming from a Protestant perspective, its difficult to get over verses in scripture which tell us that we can be saved through faith in Christ and nothing suggesting that works/sacraments are necessary for salvation (easier to understand the necessity for sanctification).
3. Infallibility - that’s a tough one as to err is human and we have all witnessed errors within the Church (even though, overall, it is a Holy and awesome body).

Blessings,

Brian

I don’t know if anyone has suggested this to you, but have you read anything by Scott Hahn? I’ve found for myself, as a recent revert, that his books are tremendous eye opening “a-ha’s” for me. Just an idea for you.

btw Robbinson, I’m the one that pm you last night from that other board. I’m glad to see you over here.

 

[Robbinson]

I don’t know if anyone has suggested this to you, but have you read anything by Scott Hahn? I’ve found for myself, as a recent revert, that his books are tremendous eye opening “a-ha’s” for me. Just an idea for you.

btw Robbinson, I’m the one that pm you last night from that other board. I’m glad to see you over here.

Thanks (both for the PM on the other Board and for this reply - small world) - and glad to be here. Yes, I just finished one of Scott’s books - he is an excellent apologist.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[TriuneUnity]

**If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic? - 3 **

Why aren’t you Catholic? Tell the truth.

Note:

“If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic -1?”

And

“If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic -2?”

Were closed because, they both exceeded the maximum number of posts.

Please, continue your remarks on this topic, here.

I am not Catholic because of:

1. The Doctrine of the Mass
2. The Invocation of the Saints
3. The Papacy
4. Most importantly; the RC doctrine of justification; and all false teaching that springs from it (indulgences, purgatory, et al).

 

[celticcrusader]

I am not Catholic because of:

1. The Doctrine of the Mass
2. The Invocation of the Saints
3. The Papacy
4. Most importantly; the RC doctrine of justification; and all false teaching that springs from it (indulgences, purgatory, et al).

doctrine of the mass? please explain a little more.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I am not Catholic because of:

1. The Doctrine of the Mass
2. The Invocation of the Saints
3. The Papacy
4. Most importantly; the RC doctrine of justification; and all false teaching that springs from it (indulgences, purgatory, et al).

Hello TriuneUnity,

I appreciate what you have written here and I would agree that for some non-Catholics, looking at the Catholic Church, from the outside in, if they are unfamiliar with “why Catholics do what they do” that some of what you wrote here could be an issue. This would be especially true, when viewed through a protestant lens and especially true for any Christian who has been taught, in error that Christian history and tradition isn’t important….However, Christian history and traditions are important and should be important to anyone who claims to be “Christian”.

I will not attempt to alleviate some of the concerns that you have listed here (in bold type).

1. The Doctrine of the Mass

To reject the Catholic Mass is to reject Christ, Christian history and tradition and the Bible because that is where the order of the Mass can be found.

When God created the 3rd Commandment - “Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day”, this is how He meant for us (after Christ) to do that. One, who knowingly rejects the Mass, knowingly violates the 3rd Commandment and commits a Mortal Sin! Jesus, at the “Last Supper”, instruct us to; “Do this in memory of me”, did He not?

Additionally, as a protestant or a Catholic who doesn’t know their own faith, let me assure you that every aspect of the Catholic Mass can be supported biblically.

More on the Order of the Mass - Here.

2. The Invocation of the Saints

Or, the “Communion of the Saints” and “intercessory prayer” ; This too, is part of your Christian history and is also biblically based, as well. More here and here.

See also -

Ephesians 1:22-23, 4:4, 5:21-32, 6:18-19
Colossians 1:18, 24, 3:16, 4:3
1 Corinthians 12:12-27
Romans 8:35-39, 12:5, 12:10, 15:30
1 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 5:11,25
2 Thessalonians 1:11, 3:1
Galatians 6:2
Revelations 1:6, 5:8,10 / 6:9-11, 20:4
Mark 9:4, 12:26-27,
Luke 16:19-30, 23:43
Hebrews 3:17, 12:1
1 John 3:2
Wisdom 3:1-6
Joshua 5:4
Daniel 8:17
Tobit 12:12, 16
Job 42:7-8

 

[Jimmy_B]

I am not Catholic because of:

1. The Doctrine of the Mass
2. The Invocation of the Saints
3. The Papacy
4. Most importantly; the RC doctrine of justification; and all false teaching that springs from it (indulgences, purgatory, et al).

Hello TriuneUnity,

I have continued to address your comments here, in bold, from my last post.

3. The Papacy
Here, here and here, is some Information on the Papacy.

See also –

Matthew 16:18, 19
Mark 16:1
Luke 22:32, 24:34
John 21:17
Acts 1:13-26, 2:14, 41 / 3:6-7 / 5:1-11 / 8:21 / 10:44-46 / 15:7,19
Galatians 1:18

4. Most importantly; the RC doctrine of justification; and all false teaching that springs from it (indulgences, purgatory, et al).

a. “of justification”,here and here

Also see - Assurance of Salvation?:

Matthew 7:21, 24:13
Romans 11:22
Philippians 2:12
1 Corinthians 9:27, 10:11-12
Galatians 5:4
2 Timothy 2:11-13
Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26-27

b.** “purgatory**”, here and here

“Indulgences” are biblically based. “Improper indulgences” was the issue 500 years ago. I will address indulgences in more detail, later but I will say now, that the Catholic Church corrected this problem more than 500 years ago and that it should be a non-issue today for anyone who understands “Catholic indulgences”.

Moreover, every time I turn to a “Christian” channel on TV, all I ever see is improper indulgences and aren’t those people, “Protestant”? They will say things like, send me money and you will be rewarded, “abundantly”. Come on now, the Catholic Church corrected any problem of this nature 500 plus years ago and now the Protestants, because of the flawed doctrine of “personal interpretation” have gone “crazy” with improper indulgences, right?

Here, here and here is some information on “indulgences”

The Bible is a “Catholic Book”, therefore, everything in the Bible, in one way or another supports Catholicism.

Ignorance of Catholicism is ignorance of the Bible.

Your thoughts?

Peace

 

[TriuneUnity]

Hey Jimmy…On the issue of the Papacy…You posted several verses to attempt to show it, which I respect, of course.

On the main one that Catholics will point to, Matt. 16:18, I would adhere to the interpretation of that passage as given by St. John Chrysostom and Cyril of Jerusalem.

There is no doubt that Peter was in Rome. (I realize some argue this, but I have no reason to debate an evident historical record.) Also, I am sure he was bishop there. That is not the aspects of the Papacy that I dispute; I dispute that the revelatory infallibility that Peter possessed as an apostle was transferred to his successors; that his successors are the “Vicar of Christ” or that the authority of the bishop of Rome extends outside of Rome itself, except as a spiritual advisor.

On the issue of justification; I assume you posted those quotes to contradict the doctrine of OSAS? I would agree with you that OSAS is a false teaching.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hey Jimmy…On the issue of the Papacy…You posted several verses to attempt to show it, which I respect, of course.

On the main one that Catholics will point to, Matt. 16:18, I would adhere to the interpretation of that passage as given by St. John Chrysostom and Cyril of Jerusalem.

There is no doubt that Peter was in Rome. (I realize some argue this, but I have no reason to debate an evident historical record.) Also, I am sure he was bishop there. That is not the aspects of the Papacy that I dispute; I dispute that the revelatory infallibility that Peter possessed as an apostle was transferred to his successors; that his successors are the “Vicar of Christ” or that the authority of the bishop of Rome extends outside of Rome itself, except as a spiritual advisor.

On the issue of justification; I assume you posted those quotes to contradict the doctrine of OSAS? I would agree with you that OSAS is a false teaching.

Hello again TriuneUnity,

I am sure that we agree on more than we disagree.

You wrote -

“I dispute that the revelatory infallibility that Peter possessed as an apostle was transferred to his successors”

Wouldn’t this then, be a rejection of what occurred during Pentecost, and a denial of the power of the Holy Spirit?

I suggest reading or “re-reading”, Acts and the Catholic Epistles. I will post more Bible verses and excerpts from Early Christian (Catholic) writings, to illustrate my point.

Do you believe that there exists conflict in the bible, where one verse conflicts with another?

There is No conflict in the Bible when read and understood in context. The Bible is a “Catholic Book” and in one way or another, supports Catholicism.

Thank your for your post, I hope this helps.

Until then, God Bless you,

Peace.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Hello again TriuneUnity,

I am sure that we agree on more than we disagree.

You wrote -

“I dispute that the revelatory infallibility that Peter possessed as an apostle was transferred to his successors”

Wouldn’t this then, be a rejection of what occurred during Pentecost, and a denial of the power of the Holy Spirit?

I suggest reading or “re-reading”, Acts and the Catholic Epistles. I will post more Bible verses and excerpts from Early Christian (Catholic) writings, to illustrate my point.

Do you believe that there exists conflict in the bible, where one verse conflicts with another?

There is No conflict in the Bible when read and understood in context. The Bible is a “Catholic Book” and in one way or another, supports Catholicism.

Thank your for your post, I hope this helps.

Until then, God Bless you,

Peace.

I am not sure what you’re referring to with Pentecost. Peter and the other apostles gathered there received the charism of the Holy Spirit. I am not sure how this pertains to what you had posted?

 

[celticcrusader]

Triuneunity: what is a Confessional Lutheran?