If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic?

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2ndGen said:
Why do you find it so difficult to just say that there are different “versions” of the NIV?

Trust me, it’ll be very liberating for you…go ahead, try it… “verrrr-ggeeeaaahhnnsss”! Versions!
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Because “versions” may imply that the text itself is different, and it isn’t.
 
2ndGen said:
Why do you find it so difficult to just say that there are different “versions” of the NIV?

Trust me, it’ll be very liberating for you…go ahead, try it… “verrrr-ggeeeaaahhnnsss”! Versions!
Click to expand...
Do you admit that the NIV is published by more than HarperCollins?

Yes or No.
 
Pwrlftr said:
Since the Pharisees taught the corban rule I would think that would be enough to put to rest any claim that the Pharisees were infallible.

You still haven’t answered my question(s) though…maybe I missed it?

Jesus’ words are recorded as:
Matthew 23:1-3 NAU Matthew 23:1 (a)Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: "(a)The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

Paul said:
Colossians 3:22 22 (a)Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters 1)on earth, (b)not with (2)external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
and

Ephesians 6:1 NAU Ephesians 6:1 (a)Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.

We see again that following your logic, one must assume that because one has authority:
a.) slave owners are infallible
and
b.) parents are infallible

Having authority does not mean one is infallible.
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You’re right. I haven’t answered your question outrightly thinking that my stating that Jesus wouldn’t tell us to adhere to what The Pharisees taught if they taught wrong.

Sorry for the confusion.

Good point on what Jesus didn’t say about the Saudecees, but the fact is that we were discussing the Pharisees.

No. Forget what you perceive to be my logic…do what Jesus said to do: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe…”

Just bend your mind to the Scripture.

Now that I’ve answered your question, will you answer mine?

Do you think that Jesus would tell us to obey the teachings of someone who would teach us fallibly?

Yes ______ No ______
 
2ndGen said:
You’re right. I haven’t answered your question outrightly thinking that my stating that Jesus wouldn’t tell us to adhere to what The Pharisees taught if they taught wrong.

Sorry for the confusion.

Good point on what Jesus didn’t say about the Saudecees, but the fact is that we were discussing the Pharisees.

No. Forget what you perceive to be my logic…do what Jesus said to do: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe…”

Just bend your mind to the Scripture.

Now that I’ve answered your question, will you answer mine?

Do you think that Jesus would tell us to obey the teachings of someone who would teach us fallibly?

Yes ______ No ______
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You should take dancing lessons, you would do well with all the dancing you are doing now. Maybe the twist would be your favorite dance?

You can’t answer my question because either you have no idea what the corban rule was or it sinks you polemic…or both.

Let’s look at the corban rule:
Jesus addressing Pharisees:
Mark 7:5-13 5 The Pharisees and the scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the (a)tradition of the elders, but eat their bread with (b)impure hands?” 6 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: '(a)THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. 7 ‘(a)BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’ 8 “Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the (a)tradition of men.” 9 He was also saying to them, "You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your (a)tradition. 10 “For Moses said, ‘(a)HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘(b)HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO (1)BE PUT TO DEATH’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is (a)Corban (that is to say, (1)given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your (a)tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”
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We see that:
  • Jesus is addressing the supposedly infallible pharisees.
  • Jesus says that the Pharisees teach the precepts of men, neglecting the precepts of God.
  • Jesus explains where the Pharisees teaching was wrong regarding the decalogue.
From the above, isn’t it quite clear that the Pharisees were fallible? How could they be infallible if their teaching on faith and morals was wrong? BTW, does a single well known Catholic apologist share your view that the pharisees were infallible? If so, who and where do they teach this?

If you read my previous post you would see that the NT gives several examples of Jesus or an apostle instructing believers to obey an authority. That does not mean that authority is infallible.
 
Pwrlftr said:
You should take dancing lessons, you would do well with all the dancing you are doing now. Maybe the twist would be your favorite dance?

You can’t answer my question because either you have no idea what the corban rule was or it sinks you polemic…or both.

Let’s look at the corban rule:

We see that:
  • Jesus is addressing the supposedly infallible pharisees.
  • Jesus says that the Pharisees teach the precepts of men, neglecting the precepts of God.
  • Jesus explains where the Pharisees teaching was wrong regarding the decalogue.
From the above, isn’t it quite clear that the Pharisees weren’t infallible? How could they be infallible if their teaching on faith and morals was wrong? BTW, does a single well known Catholic apologist share your view that the pharisees were infallible? If so, who and where do they teach this?

If you read my previous post you would see that the NT gives several examples of Jesus or an apostle instructing believers to obey an authority. That does not mean that authority is infallible.
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Talk about “dancing”.

You spend more text “not” answering my question, than just simply saying yes or no.

I’ll give you one more chance to redeem yourself here:

Again…

Do you think that Jesus would tell us to obey the teachings of someone who would teach us fallibly?

Yes ______ No ______
 
2ndGen said:
Talk about “dancing”.

You spend more text “not” answering my question, than just simply saying yes or no.

I’ll give you one more chance to redeem yourself here:

Again…

Do you think that Jesus would tell us to obey the teachings of someone who would teach us fallibly?

Yes ______ No ______
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The answer to your question is yes. If you read my other posts you would see that Jesus and the apostles instruct believers to obey fallible authority.

Now, you owe me an answer on the corban rule since in my previous posts I even gave examples of the NT stating in quite clear terms that we are to obey lawful authority.
 
Pwrlftr said:
Maybe you missed this?

Oh, I can hear it now. Since it says “niv keyword studybible” it won’t qualify as an NIV bible.
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a)
They don’t state that they “publish” the NIV

b)
Is that your resonse to my question as to if you think that Jesus would instruct His followers to observe teachings of fallible persons?
 
Pwrlftr said:
The answer to your question is yes. If you read my other posts you would see that Jesus and the apostles instruct believers to obey fallible authority.

.
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In fact, God put the whole Earth in the hands of people he knew were fallible. In fact, he did that on purpose and for a very good reason. Would Jesus not be willing to do something similar with the church?:cool:
 
Pwrlftr said:
The answer to your question is yes. If you read my other posts you would see that Jesus and the apostles instruct believers to obey fallible authority.

Now, you owe me an answer on the corban rule since in my previous posts I even gave examples of the NT stating in quite clear terms that we are to obey lawful authority.
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Wow.

You believe that Jesus would command us to follow men who would mislead us.

I would counter that with a no…Jesus would not tell us to follow men who would mislead us because we could get hurt. And Jesus wouldn’t want us to be misled. Supposedly, Jesus is The Truth.

How could The Truth tell us to follow lies?

But hey, to each his/her own.

👍

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
John 14:6
 
2ndGen said:
Wow.

You believe that Jesus would command us to follow men who would mislead us.

I would counter that with a no…Jesus would not tell us to follow men who would mislead us because we could get hurt. And Jesus wouldn’t want us to be misled. Supposedly, Jesus is The Truth.

How could The Truth tell us to follow lies?

But hey, to each his/her own.

👍

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
John 14:6
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Okay it’s your turn to answer questions:
a.) Does any well known catholc apologist claim the pharisees were infallible? If so, who and where do they make this claim?

b.) Please explain how the pharisees can be both infallible and teach the corban rule where Jesus clearly said that they teach the precepts of man as doctrine?

c.) Is there any text in the NT where believers are told to obey a fallible authority?
 
2ndGen said:
Wow.

You believe that Jesus would command us to follow men who would mislead us.

I would counter that with a no…Jesus would not tell us to follow men who would mislead us because we could get hurt. And Jesus wouldn’t want us to be misled. Supposedly, Jesus is The Truth.

How could The Truth tell us to follow lies?

But hey, to each his/her own.

👍

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
John 14:6
Click to expand...
BTW, I gave two or three examples of where believers were told to obey fallible authority in my previous post. I guess you skipped over it?
 
O.S.Luke said:
The real reason I cannot be Catholic is because of a closed Eucharist to baptized Christians. I do know all of the reasons - and I’ve never been able to reconcile them theologically, particularly with those who embrace the Real Presence.

O+
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I don’t see why a non-Catholic would want to receive the Eucharist, in addition to being the real presence of Christ, the Eucharist is also an outward sign of communion with the Church (hence the reason some people call it “communion”). Why would someone want to profess communion with something they don’t believe in or agree with?

For example, I worked as a musician at a First Christian Church while I was in college (I played at a 8:00a.m. service and then attended 11:00 Mass). The pastor invited me on several occasions to communion because it is “open-communion.” I politely declined each time. I could not in good conscience recieve communion at a church in which I do not express communion.
 
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