If you are a Christian, what is the real reason for you not being a Catholic?

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O.S.Luke said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgrfin
It does sound like "Catholics, see, we are just like you. Except we don’t have a priesthood, and we came into existence around the 17th Century. Without a priesthood, we have no valid Eucharist, and no valid Sacrament of Penance

It’s all that wanna be Catholic stuff all over.

I guess you can hear whatever you like and editorialize as you wish. Doesn’t mean it’s true. I want to be faithful. I don’t want to be Catholic - even less so at this moment, I fear.
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Two things about this (kind of) exchange:

*) How easy it is to appear to be “uncharitable” when stating obvious truths from the Catholic point of view.

*) How often protestants use the “how arrogant you are” card to bolster their misunderstandings OF obvious truths from the Catholic point of view.
 
🙂 excuse me Fred Smith may ask if ,you are not catholic i assume, how the books of Maccabees is not in the bible? if they are not then you must be a Jew for that is the Jewish canon. St. John in writing the gospel said Christ is the word of God made flesh. so by accepting the Jewish canon made by the very same group that rejects Jesus you must also reject Him or you are not faithful to your roots that you claim are yours. did your group decide which books belong in the canon of the new testament no only the catholic church did many many many moons ago. if claim Luther did why are not all others Lutheran then?
 
mgrfin said:
Interesting.

Scripture: As far as Christian denominations are concerned, arent there many that ignore the clear words of scripture: about the Eucharist; about forgiveness of sins; about the founding of the Church; about the Trinity; about the Hypostatic union of Jesus Christ; about THE church Jesus founded.
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Then they, too, should be avoided.
The math is not the problem with Catholicism, but with the problem of thousands of denominations say they are the true church.
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I agree. I would avoid any church that says it’s the “one true church that Jesus founded” to the exclusion of other churches or denominations. Not only is it Unbiblical, it sounds a little Jim Jones-ian to me.
Welcome: Many Catholic parishes may be too large and impersonal to you. But I am sure you can find your niche and find yourself welcome.
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At first, maybe, but sooner or later, word of my beliefs would get back to the church leadership (if I didn’t confront them myself) and I can’t imagine they’d be too happy with my beliefs.

To be honest, I don’t even see how they would allow me to join the Roman Catholic church to begin with.
 
FredSmith said:
Papal infallibility, the worship of (and, yes, I understand that you don’t believe it’s worship) and prayer to the dead, purgatory, etc.

Because my first allegience would always be to scripture and that would cause some very uncomfortable moments if I’m to be expected to defer to the church over God’s word.

And I have a good feeling you’d be throwing me out that door before long.
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**Hello Jon, **

**Have you ever been to a Roman Catholic Mass?

**Below, I have divided the Catholic Mass into 25 sections, **
**

The Mass divided into (25) sections:
  • ENTRANCE SONGS (taken from Psalms)
  • GREETING (of peace, a blessing / making the sign of the Cross)
  • PENITENTIAL RITE (I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters…)
  • KYRIE (Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy…One of the Churches most ancient prayers)
  • GLORY (Glory to God in the highest…)
  • OPENING PRAYER (“that God will increase in our faith”…)
  • THE FIRST READING (Old Testament)
  • THE RESPONSORIAL PSALM
  • THE SECOND READING (New Testament)
  • THE GOSPEL ACCLAMATION (Alleluia, Alleluia…)
  • THE GOSPEL READING (Gospel)
  • THE HOMILY (SERMON)
  • THE PROFESSION OF FAITH (the Creed – “We believe in one God…”)
  • THE PRAYER OF THE FAITHFUL (“Lord hear our prayer”)
  • PREPARATION OF THE GIFTS – (Blessed are you Lord God…") Invitation prayer (“May the Lord accept this sacrifice…”)
  • PREFACE (“Lord have mercy…Holy Holy, Holy Lord…”)
  • PRAYER OVER THE GIFTS
  • EUCHARISTIC PRAYER (“…Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life. Lord Jesus Christ come in glory…”)
  • THE LORD’S PRAYER (the Our Father prayer)
  • RITE OF PEACE (“I leave you peace my peace of give you…")
  • BREAKING OF THE BREAD (Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us…”)
  • COMMUNION (…“Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.”)
  • COMMUNION SONG (PSALMS)
  • THANKSGIVING PRAYER (“Lord, you renew us at this table with the bread of life…”)
  • CONCLUDING RITE (another blessing with the sign of the Cross, “The lord be with you…Go in peace…”)
    Please tell me the section or practice which is not Biblical;
    Or, in your words is deferring “to the church over God’s word”:
Is it reciting the Lord’s Prayer?;
Is it reading from the Bible;
Is it singing the Psalms, in praise glory and honor of our Father God?;
Is it the Creed, the profession of faith?
Is it the Eucharist (communion) (“Take this bread and it this is my body…” “do this in remembrance of me”)

Continued-
 
Continued from last post -

Point out, in your opinion, or based on your statement, where you would (using your words) be “expected to defer to the church over God’s word", that never happens!!! Your comment is in error.

Our focus during the Mass is on Jesus Christ, not the “church”. This is not my opinion, it is a fact (see the Catechism below),

Please do not appoint yourself as the soul representative on the teachings of the Roman Catholic Faith and the official belief of over the one billion members. I

If you want to know what Catholics believe it can be found here -

The Catechism of the Catholic Church
Catechism of the Catholic Church
[1100](http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:OpenPopupWindow(%22%3cp%3e%3cA%20HREF=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage()
The Word of God. The Holy Spirit first recalls the meaning of the salvation event to the liturgical assembly by giving life to the Word of God, which is proclaimed so that it may be received and lived:
In the celebration of the liturgy, Sacred Scripture is extremely important. From it come the lessons that are read and explained in the homily and the psalms that are sung. It is from the Scriptures that the prayers, collects, and hymns draw their inspiration and their force, and that actions and signs derive their meaning.20
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Your comment, when viewed by the light of truth, found in the Roman Catholic Church, makes absolutely no sense. Your comment that we (Catholics) “defer to the church over God’s word” isnon-sense, and not true.

The Mass is absolutely 100% consistent with Christian teachings and never at any point does the Mass deviate from “God’s Word”.

The Catholic Church gave you “God’s word” (the Bible). What do you base your comments on, please be specific. Thanks for you for your post, God bless.
 
FredSmith said:
Papal infallibility, the worship of (and, yes, I understand that you don’t believe it’s worship) and prayer to the dead, purgatory, etc.

Because my first allegience would always be to scripture and that would cause some very uncomfortable moments if I’m to be expected to defer to the church over God’s word.

And I have a good feeling you’d be throwing me out that door before long.
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First of all, I never heard of someone being thrown out of a Catholic Church.

Second, Scripture is part of our worship. And if you read this Scripture you are praising, you will see the institution of the Eucharist, which we celebrate daily in our churches.

We don’t pray to the dead, unless you are talking about canonized saints in heaven. We pray for those who have died. It is a good and wholesome thing to pray for the dead.

Scripture opens the doors to the Catholic Church; it doesn’t close them. What makes you think that you have more a regard for the Scriptures than we do? They belong to us; we found them; we guarded and preserved them. We protected them from error.

I assume your church came into being sometime after the 15th century, and picked up our book of Scriptures. You have had no responsibility in keeping them for all millenia.

peace
 
mgrfin said:
Second, Scripture is part of our worship. And if you read this Scripture you are praising, you will see the institution of the Eucharist, which we celebrate daily in our churches.
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I see the Lord’s Supper, but I don’t see the Eucharist as it’s commonly practiced in Roman Catholicism.
We don’t pray to the dead
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Are you sure about that? Because I can show you many Roman Catholic prayers to the dead if you like.
It is a good and wholesome thing to pray for the dead.
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It’s Unbiblical.
Scripture opens the doors to the Catholic Church; it doesn’t close them. What makes you think that you have more a regard for the Scriptures than we do.
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Because many of the doctrines and practices common to Roman Catholicism are Unbiblical.
They belong to us; we found them; we guarded and preserved them. We protected them from error.
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Sure you did.
 
FredSmith said:
Then they, too, should be avoided.

I agree. I would avoid any church that says it’s the “one true church that Jesus founded” to the exclusion of other churches or denominations. Not only is it Unbiblical, it sounds a little Jim Jones-ian to me.

At first, maybe, but sooner or later, word of my beliefs would get back to the church leadership (if I didn’t confront them myself) and I can’t imagine they’d be too happy with my beliefs.

To be honest, I don’t even see how they would allow me to join the Roman Catholic church to begin with.
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We call it conversion, Fred.

There are so many converts on this Site. They should address your concerns.

If you converted your views to the teachings of the Catholic Church, there would be no problem. Our parishes generally are not that small and intimate, like protestant churches.

peace
 
CalmDownWisWins said:
Two things about this (kind of) exchange:

*) How easy it is to appear to be “uncharitable” when stating obvious truths from the Catholic point of view.

*) How often protestants use the “how arrogant you are” card to bolster their misunderstandings OF obvious truths from the Catholic point of view.
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I guess I could be softer than how I present myself.

I’m an old cranky guy, with high blood pressure, arthritis, BPH (why I run to the bathroom alot), high cholesterol, and I am fat and obsese. I’ve had A/F, but they gave me shock treatments, which seem to have worked. When the doctor says I have had ‘heart failure’, I suspect I am on the way out. My eyes are bad, and for that reason I have a lot of typos. There is a lot more I could do to be patient, but unfortunately I am not.

Yeah, people use the ‘uncharitable’ card, particularly against me. That doesn’t resolve their problem, just because I am old, sick and cranky. It is kind of an emotional, sentimental black-mail, and I am suppose to fall on my knees and beg their forgiveness.

If I did, I wouldn’t be able to get up 🙂

peace
 
FredSmith said:
Quote:
The math is not the problem with Catholicism, but with the problem of thousands of denominations say they are the true church.

I agree. I would avoid any church that says it’s the “one true church that Jesus founded” to the exclusion of other churches or denominations. Not only is it Unbiblical, it sounds a little Jim Jones-ian to me.
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Your concept of the word “church” is not same as the Catholic concept of the word “church”, or “Church”, though closer to the former than to the latter. 🙂

Since there IS one Church (Body of Christ) which is equivalent to the Church (Catholic) containing all other churches (Christian and otherwise), their being in various degrees of communion with the Church (Catholic), it IS possible for a Church, being The Church, to claim to be, de facto, THE ONE TRUE CHURCH that Jesus founded, which does NOT EXCLUDE other churches or “denominations” in as much as they DO conform to the Church, you are absolutely correct!

Since you see any one group as being as “valid” as any other group (church/denomination) you obviously have no way to differentiate a “church” from a “cult”, and therefore are MORE likely to be IN a cult than a member of The Church.
 
Hi,

I am not catholic because
  1. I wasnt raised catholic and
  2. After studying and learning about catholocism I do not agree with many of their doctrines/dogmas.
the pope
papal infallibilty
marian dogma
purgatory
view of justification
view of who the church is
eucharist
 
FredSmith said:
Papal infallibility, the worship of (and, yes, I understand that you don’t believe it’s worship) and prayer to the dead, purgatory, etc.

Because my first allegience would always be to scripture and that would cause some very uncomfortable moments if I’m to be expected to defer to the church over God’s word.

And I have a good feeling you’d be throwing me out that door before long.
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The Catholic Church does not “expect you to defer to the church over God’s word”.
**Hello FredSmith (addressing your post on this thread, post #137) **
Where does this false belief of yours come from?
**Below, I have divided the Catholic Mass into 25 sections, **
  • ENTRANCE SONGS (taken from Psalms)
  • **GREETING **(of peace, a blessing / making the sign of the Cross)
  • PENITENTIAL RITE (I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters…)
  • KYRIE (Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy…One of the Churches most ancient prayers)
  • GLORY (Glory to God in the highest…)
  • OPENING PRAYER (“that God will increase in our faith”…)
  • THE FIRST READING (Old Testament)
  • THE RESPONSORIAL PSALM
  • THE SECOND READING (New Testament)
  • THE GOSPEL ACCLAMATION (Alleluia, Alleluia…)
  • THE GOSPEL READING (Gospel)
  • THE HOMILY (the sermon)
  • THE PROFESSION OF FAITH (the Creed – “We believe in one God…”)
  • THE PRAYER OF THE FAITHFUL (“Lord hear our prayer”)
  • PREPARATION OF THE GIFTS – (Blessed are you Lord God…) Invitation prayer (“May the Lord accept this sacrifice…”)
  • PRAYER OVER THE GIFTS
  • PREFACE ("…lift up your hearts…we lift them up to the Lord")
  • EUCHARISTIC PRAYER (“…Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life. Lord Jesus Christ come in glory…”)
  • THE LORD’S PRAYER (the Our Father prayer)
  • RITE OF PEACE (“I leave you peace my peace of give you)
  • BREAKING OF THE BREAD (Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us…”)
  • COMMUNION (…“Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.”)
  • COMMUNION SONG (PSALMS)
  • THANKSGIVING PRAYER (“Lord, you renew us at this table with the bread of life…”)
  • CONCLUDING RITE (another blessing with the sign of the Cross, “The lord be with you…Go in peace…”)
Please tell me the section or practice which is not Biblical;
or deferring “to the church over God’s word”.
Is it reciting the Lord’s Prayer?;
Is it reading from the Bible;
Is it singing the Psalms, in praise glory and honor of our Father God?;
Is it the Creed, the profession of faith?
Is it the Eucharist (communion) (“Take this bread and it this is my body…” “do this in remembrance of me”)

Continued on next post -
 
mgrfin said:
I guess I could be softer than how I present myself.

I’m an old cranky guy, with high blood pressure, arthritis, BPH, high cholesterol, and I am fat and obsese. I’ve had A/F, but they gave me shock treatments, which seem to have worked. When the doctor says I have had ‘heart failure’, I suspect I am on the way out. There is a lot more I could do to be patient, but unfortunately I am not.

Yeah, people use the ‘uncharitable’ card, particularly against me. That doesn’t resolve their problem, just because I am old and cranky. It is kind of an emotional, sentimental black-mail, and I am suppose to fall on my knees and beg their forgiveness.

If I did, I wouldn’t be able to get up 🙂

peace
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🙂

I’m a cranky old guy as well, so I agree with you entirely.

I’m actually not even saying that you WERE uncharitable! Only that you were easily perceivable as being uncharitable.

Protestants are constantly begging to be not treated “uncharitably arrogantly” because they are so used to being treated “charitably” arrogantly by other protestants in wonderfully subtle ways, and we give them a blatant and golden opportunity to use the “uncharitably arrogant” card because we’re so darned un-subtle!

They’re not used to being handed typical protestant weapons by their “enemy” unbidden and in normal course, instead of having to wait for their “enemy” to slip up.
 
CalmDownWisWins said:
🙂

I’m a cranky old guy as well, so I agree with you entirely.

I’m actually not even saying that you WERE uncharitable! Only that you were easily perceivable as being uncharitable.

Protestants are constantly begging to be not treated “uncharitably arrogantly” because they are so used to being treated “charitably” arrogantly by other protestants in wonderfully subtle ways, and we give them a blatant and golden opportunity to use the “uncharitably arrogant” card because we’re so darned un-subtle!

They’re not used to being handed typical protestant weapons by their “enemy” unbidden and in normal course, instead of having to wait for their “enemy” to slip up.
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Spot on.

peace
 
**Continued from my last post (# 153) addressing FredSmith’s comments (post #137)
**
Fredsmith

Point out, in your opinion, or based on your statement, where you would (using your words) be “expected to defer to the church over God’s word". That never happens!!! Your comment is in error.

Our focus during the Mass is on Jesus Christ, not the “church”.

This is not my opinion, it is a fact (see the Catechism below), Please do not appoint yourself as the soul representative on the teachings of the Roman Catholic Faith or as the authority on the official beliefs of all Roman Catholics. I

If you want to know what Catholics believe it can be found here - Catechism of the Catholic Church
Catechism of the Catholic Church
[1100](http://javascript:OpenPopupWindow(%22%3cp%3e%3cA%20HREF=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage()
The Word of God. The Holy Spirit first recalls the meaning of the salvation event to the liturgical assembly by giving life to the Word of God, which is proclaimed so that it may be received and lived:
In the celebration of the liturgy, Sacred Scripture is extremely important. From it come the lessons that are read and explained in the homily and the psalms that are sung. It is from the Scriptures that the prayers, collects, and hymns draw their inspiration and their force, and that actions and signs derive their meaning.20
Click to expand...
Your comment, when viewed by the light of truth, found in the Roman Catholic Church, makes absolutely no sense. Your comment that we (Catholics) All one billion of us; “defer to the church over God’s word” isnon-sense, and not true.

The Mass is absolutely 100% consistent with Christian teachings and never at any point does the Mass deviate from “God’s Word”.

The Catholic Church gave you “God’s word” (the Bible).

What do you base your comments on?, please be specific.

Thanks for you for your post, God bless.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Please tell me the section or practice which is not Biblical
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I noticed that you did not mention any prayers to Mary or the idea that Roman Catholics believe that they are actually eating the literal flesh of Christ, that Christ is being crucified again, or that they believe that they need a priest to act as a mediator between them and God.
 
Jimmy_B said:
Point out, in your opinion, or based on your statement, where you would (using your words) be “expected to defer to the church over God’s word". That never happens!!! Your comment is in error.
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I see. So then it would be OK for me to speak up and say that something is Unbiblical, or refuse to do something because it is Unbiblical?
The Mass is absolutely 100% consistent with Christian teachings and never at any point does the Mass deviate from “God’s Word”.
Click to expand...
But that’s only because you interpret God’s word in light of your church’s teaching.
 
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