If you can be a good person without God then why need Him?

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You’ve refuted nothing, if you want to pretend that you have then again feel free.
All you’ve shown is an inability to have an honest debate and an inability to see evidence unless it supports your pre-concieved notions.
So basically talking to you is pointless.
for your benefit, since you cannot see the animated GIFs that R is posting, it’s a picture of Sisko from “Deep Space 9” facepalming.

gifsforum.com/images/gif/facepalm/grand/disappointed_gif_44556.gif

To which Pete replied with the following GIF

forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=2053&pictureid=17305
 
I think you answered your own question as to why we need god. you said in your last lines:

"why do we often to choose to sin? Why can’t people simply stop sinning, why do we need Jesus’s redemption or forgiveness at all if it is our own choice? Or are humans so helpless they honestly cannot stop sinning?

There is more to it than just being good and kind.
 
Look, Winterwolf–there is no changing the fact that the Catholic Church was the patron of science.
Copernicus, the discoverer of the Heliocentric Theory, was a Catholic priest.

Gregor Mendel, the grandfather of the science of Genetics, was a Catholic priest.

George Lemaitre, the pioneer of the Big Bang theory, was a Catholic priest.

Likewise the Church has awarded special prizes for notable scientific achievements.
 
Copernicus, the discoverer of the Heliocentric Theory, was a Catholic priest.

Gregor Mendel, the grandfather of the science of Genetics, was a Catholic priest.

George Lemaitre, the pioneer of the Big Bang theory, was a Catholic priest.

Likewise the Church has awarded special prizes for notable scientific achievements.
The fathers of everything except the theory of evolution.
 
The fathers of everything except the theory of evolution.
What does this comment mean? :confused:

Are you disputing the fact that the CC is a great patron of science and has produced some of the greatest scientists in the world?
 
What does this comment mean? :confused:

Are you disputing the fact that the CC is a great patron of science and has produced some of the greatest scientists in the world?
If a valid theory of science (one that is consistent with the scientific method) were to contradict a statement of faith what difference would it make that some of the greatest scientists in the world are Catholic?

It seems to me that science as a method is only as valuable to the Catholic Church as much as it is consistent with its theology.

I could be wrong about that, but thats how it appears. For example and for sake of argument lets say there has never been less then 100 homosapiens in existence according to science. Would the church accept that? Or would they see it as conflicting with Adam and Eve and therefore reject Science as regards to that question?
 
If a valid theory of science (one that is consistent with the scientific method) were to contradict a statement of faith what difference would it make that some of the greatest scientists in the world are Catholic?

It seems to me that science as a method is only as valuable to the Catholic Church as much as it is consistent with its theology.

I could be wrong about that, but thats how it appears. For example and for sake of argument lets say there has never been less then 100 homosapiens in existence according to science. Would the church accept that? Or would they see it as conflicting with Adam and Eve and therefore reject Science as regards to that question?
Besides the bigger question of whether science and theology do conflict in this instance, there is the question of whether any genetic trait at all could have its actual genesis, al la the theory of evolution, in more than one individual at a time. It seems to me that evolution, itself, argues against your claim that there had to be at least 100 Homo sapiens around to begin with. Whatever trait or traits there came to exist that distinguish Homo sapiens from some precursor would have to make their genetic appearance in one individual initially and then be replicated and passed on from that one individual’s genetic code.

It seems genetics and evolution both argue against your notion that there had to be at least 100 humans around to begin with. Care to substantiate that claim rather than just make it?
 
If a valid theory of science (one that is consistent with the scientific method) were to contradict a statement of faith what difference would it make that some of the greatest scientists in the world are Catholic?
Well, unless you can produce one “valid theory of science” that actually contradicts a Church dogma, your proposition is as otiose as saying, *“If a Behemoth appeared from the sky and told you, ‘The Catholic Church is the Fullness of Truth’!” would you then believe this to be true?
*
It seems to me that science as a method is only as valuable to the Catholic Church as much as it is consistent with its theology.
True.

And we also say theology as a method is only as valuable to the Catholic Church as much as it is consistent with science.
 
The fathers of everything except the theory of evolution.
Technically, yes. But in Genesis the account of creation extends over a period of time, showing lower forms of life appear first, then more advanced forms, and finally us. This at least is consistent with Evolution which likewise affirms that life began in the sea and moved to the land and that the most complex creature of all appeared last of all. Indeed, St. Augustine allowed that the period of creation must have lasted a good deal longer than the metaphorical impression of “days” we are given in Genesis.
 
Besides the bigger question of whether science and theology do conflict in this instance, there is the question of whether any genetic trait at all could have its actual genesis, al la the theory of evolution, in more than one individual at a time. It seems to me that evolution, itself, argues against your claim that there had to be at least 100 Homo sapiens around to begin with. Whatever trait or traits there came to exist that distinguish Homo sapiens from some precursor would have to make their genetic appearance in one individual initially and then be replicated and passed on from that one individual’s genetic code.

It seems genetics and evolution both argue against your notion that there had to be at least 100 humans around to begin with. Care to substantiate that claim rather than just make it?
I am not arguing that at least 100 humans existed to begin with and therefore I need not substantiate such a claim. I was saying that if such a claim were true that would spell the end of the Catholic faith since it is argued to be an infallible faith. Also it would seem if only one human being existed and had to pass on the code what good does that do for those who believe that Adam and Eve are the biological mother and father of everyone?

My point is, I don’t see much value in the argument that because a catholic priest pioneered some scientific discovery that therefore the Catholic church is in principle open to scientific truth or is the truth. It is accepting of the scientific method only if it does not contradict the faith; not because they honestly believe that the scientific method is in principle always an acceptable measure of physical truth.
 
There are many good people who are atheists and agnostics. Some of them are better than Catholics and Christians I have known personally. I just always wonder if you can control your own selfish or evil impulses and you truly love your neighbor as yourself, why would you need God or religion? When I think people who need God, I think those with issues like alcoholism, promiscuity, poor self-esteem, poor, etc. If you are kind, well-put together person, why would you need to believe in God? What difference would it make in your life anyways? Some people can find peace within themselves, they are very independent and self-reliant and kind. Why need God? If we have full control over our decisions, why do we often to choose to sin? Why can’t people simply stop sinning, why do we need Jesus’s redemption or forgiveness at all if it is our own choice? Or are humans so helpless they honestly cannot stop sinning?
I will begin by saying you need to read your Catechism, which will answer all your questions. You can’t live a good Catholic life on " sound bites, " you have to grasp your faith as a whole.

The Church teaches and God has revealed that you cannot enter into the Kindom of Heaven unless you believe in Him, his Son, and the Holy Spirit and unless you are Baptized and follow his Church. Of course you can perform naturally good acts, live a naturally good life, but if you intentionally reject God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, or the Catholic Church, it is highly questionable that you could be saved. For the simple reason that you would have rejected all the possible means of obtaining Sanctifying Grace - and without that you Cannot be saved.

Here is a rule of thumb, if you don’t want God in your life, he will allow you to live that way eternally, he won’t force you to love him.

No human can live a sinless life without God’s help, and a lot of it. St. Paul said we have to be like real athletes training to win a race, the most important race of our lives, the only one that counts.

Pax
Linus2nd
 
I am not arguing that at least 100 humans existed to begin with and therefore I need not substantiate such a claim. I was saying that if such a claim were true that would spell the end of the Catholic faith since it is argued to be an infallible faith. Also it would seem if only one human being existed and had to pass on the code what good does that do for those who believe that Adam and Eve are the biological mother and father of everyone?

My point is, I don’t see much value in the argument that because a catholic priest pioneered some scientific discovery that therefore the Catholic church is in principle open to scientific truth or is the truth. It is accepting of the scientific method only if it does not contradict the faith; not because they honestly believe that the scientific method is in principle always an acceptable measure of physical truth.
The claim isn’t merely that a Catholic priest pioneered some scientific theory, but rather that the scientific method, itself, was premised upon definitively Catholic (and Christian) principles of natural philosophy and theology that God, as the ultimate Creator of the cosmos, does not act capriciously or arbitrarily (as pagan gods) but in a consistent manner that follows observable and comprehensible laws.

I suggest you read God’s Philosophers: How the Medieval World Laid the Foundations of Modern Science by historian James Hannam for a very detailed overview of the development of science from ancient times through the Middle Ages into modernity.
The first two chapters are available here, along with some of his other writings.
jameshannam.com
 
There are many good people who are atheists and agnostics. Some of them are better than Catholics and Christians I have known personally. I just always wonder if you can control your own selfish or evil impulses and you truly love your neighbor as yourself, why would you need God or religion? When I think people who need God, I think those with issues like alcoholism, promiscuity, poor self-esteem, poor, etc. If you are kind, well-put together person, why would you need to believe in God? What difference would it make in your life anyways? Some people can find peace within themselves, they are very independent and self-reliant and kind. Why need God? If we have full control over our decisions, why do we often to choose to sin? Why can’t people simply stop sinning, why do we need Jesus’s redemption or forgiveness at all if it is our own choice? Or are humans so helpless they honestly cannot stop sinning?
“good people”?
An atheist is intentionally and defiantly committing a sin worse than any alcoholic, fornicator, self-doubter. His sin is that he is calling God what is not God (calling the goal and end of his being to be union with something that is not the one God).
If you are justifying your “goodness” by your societally acceptable activities, then in Reno Nevada promiscuity is not sinful because society approves of it. Lewdness is not sinful because it is all over television and the media as perfectly normal (all the “red carpet” photos.)

Yes, they find peace within themselves by their self-justification of saying “I’m okay because I am not like those others. I do socially acceptable things all the time”.

In truth, the only people who find sin to be a problem are those who take the reality of God seriously and the eternal goal of our being seriously. The “why am I ?” question.
 
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