If you could reform the liturgy

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Fauken said:
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Crusader13:
Yeah, they place the kneelers out during the High Mass, but for the ordinary Mass they remove them.

I’m not sure why.
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That’s weird. I’ve never heard of that being done before, and I’ve never seen that at any low TLM I’ve gone to.
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Sorry for the confusion, it was at the Ordinary Form of the mass. But during this particular Ordinary Form, the parish I attend calls it a high mass. And they try to differentiate it from the other masses that are celebrated at the parish. Which is why they have all the prayers in Latin, they bring out kneelers, Gregorian chant is used etc etc.
 
Prodigal1984 said:
Even though “Ordinary Time” means ordered and not just like ordinary compared to the rest of the liturgical year as if it isn’t as important, a lot of people aren’t aware and probably view ordinary as meaning it isn’t as important.
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That is a translation problem. In the Latin typical edition, the season is called Tempus per Annum; that is, the Season of the Year. Why “Ordinary” was chosen to translate Per Annum beats me.
 
so what are they doing with the kneelers and where are they placed? Who is using them and when?
 
phil19034 said:
so what are they doing with the kneelers and where are they placed? Who is using them and when?
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During this “high mass” that I frequent, the two movable kneelers are placed directly up front in the middle. The priest is at the one to the right and the deacon is administering communion at the one on the left. So when you approach you can kneel if you choose to.

The other times that I’ve attended mass here and it wasn’t during this particular “high mass” the kneelers were no longer there. The priest and the deacon are still in the same place just minus the kneelers. I think the kneelers are moved back in front of two of the statues that are inside the church.
 
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The trouble is not so much with the liturgy itself (I said “so much”, not ‘not at all’ but that’s for another post), but with the fact that 90% plus of the celebrants do not adhere to the liturgy. They change it here, tweak it there, rephrase it there. Omit this prayer, add on this prayer, call for this gesture to be done by all, refuse to all another gesture to be done by any, etc. etc.

I wouldn’t care if the Mass had the My Little Pony music, always used Eucharistic prayer 2, the apostles’ creed instead of the Nicene, and people hugged AND kissed at the Sign of peace, if every other ‘jot and tittle’ called for in the GIRM was in place.

Say the red and do the black. Make whatever legitimate choice you want, but follow the rules per the GIRM. Don’t come waltzing down from the Ambo because you just feel more comfortable as "Father Em-Cee’ doing a 10 ten funny things about Catholics as your sermon; if it’s that hilarious, people will ‘get it’ with you standing where you should be.

You want to make an emphasis somewhere? Make it during your homily. You feel women need more ‘inclusion’, have female altar servers if your diocese permits, have an all female choir, have all the people who bring up the gifts and serve as EHMCs women, write all the powerful gems you want in the bulletin, but don’t take the words of the liturgy and drop ‘He’, "him’, became man’, Father, etc because you think they offend women.

So maybe the liturgy might not need reform (although Pope Benedict, still emeritus, thinks it did and does, but that’s for another post) but its ‘presiders’ sure as heck need to reform and give us the Mass that the Church itself gave as the OF. Stop offering ‘Father X’s riff’ or the liturgy according to what Father O thinks should be emphasized’, please and thank you.
 
The intent of using the vernacular was to make the prayers accessible, that is to say understandable to the common person, I used to struggle to understand the wording of the current NO translation, and I generally have one of the best vocabularies and best understanding of theology of people my age/community (late teenagers, but this has been true for quite a while), as such a “literary version of the vernacular” sounds borderline incomprehensible, and would completely fail in the goal of the vernacular, which is being comprehensible and prayable, rather than something people just kind of get a vague sense of what is happening.
 
Michael_Anthony said:
The intent of using the vernacular was to make the prayers accessible, that is to say understandable to the common person, I used to struggle to understand the wording of the current NO translation, and I generally have one of the best vocabularies and best understanding of theology of people my age/community (late teenagers, but this has been true for quite a while), as such a “literary version of the vernacular” sounds borderline incomprehensible, and would completely fail in the goal of the vernacular, which is being comprehensible and prayable, rather than something people just kind of get a vague sense of what is happening.
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I was referring to the dignified, sober translation such as you will find on the right-hand side of most Latin Mass missals, or as is found in traditional Anglican liturgies. I contrast this with the more pedestrian ICEL liturgies. Bottom line, I would wish to see it as close to the Latin as possible.
 
Totally add the giant, oil-soaked, flaming cotton ball during Easter Vigil. I forget who does this but it sounds awesome.
 
pnewton said:
On the more traditional side, move the sign of peace, and have the priest face liturgical east during the eucharistic prayers. On the less traditional side, reduce the emphasis on Latin, organ and chant.
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I’d be inclined to just the opposite! Well maybe less organ, not a huge fan but I can tolerate it. I love chant though.

But when it comes down to it, I wouldn’t change a thing, and I’d keep the OF normative. Just more discipline, and better, more solemn music (not necessarily chant, I’m open to other forms).

I’ll keep my wish list simple though, I’d be thrilled if secular priests would simply just do the red, say the black.
 
I don’t think Teresa of Calcutta was put on the General Roman Calendar as of now was she? I actually thought that was odd seeing her universal name recognition.
Benedict XVl promoted updating the EF calendar to reflect new saints. I believe in 2017 priests who celebrate it were given a permission to celebrate Fatima which wasn’t on the calendar yet which the EF uses.
It’s a sensitive thing. There’s a lot of saints on the traditional calendar. I believe Paul Vl removed many because it was cluttered and many on it were sort of possibly just legendary and not much was known about their lives. Such as Valentine or Christopher.
Adding new saints would be tricky because it isn’t just a matter of inserting a new name like in the current OF missal. The EF missal is the entire mass with the readings in it as well. And when a saint day was celebrated the readings were used from the missal. Today a saint day can be celebrated with the readings but usually the regular daily readings are still used unless it is a higher ranking feast of an Apostle, Mary, etc etc.
Changing the EF missal would then mean and correct me if I’m wrong, but it would seem it could mean releasing a new typical edition of it.
I’m not sure people attached to the EF would want that to begin with. I wouldn’t mind though just adding some saints, not necessarily throwing any off the traditional calendar but giving other saint options if they happen to be on the same day etc.
 
TLM with no option for any variance…excommunication for all who attend NO and burning at the stake for liturgists who complain about the changes!!!

[ old geezer who rather dislikes modernity 🤔 ]
 
You must be able to change stuff, I went to a church in my country, all in English like the other churches but they sand e our father in Latin.
 
I think we could learn a lot from our High Anglican brethren. Beautiful liturgy! If only all Catholic Masses were like that. Lucky we get to hear Betty from the Parish Council play “City of God” on her new synth keyboard for the 500th time!
 
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