If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[GaryTaylor]

The fourth and fifth centuries, the first ones of Christian emancipation from persecution, were centuries of consolidating the truth about God and Christ. The Councils of Nicea (325) and Constantinople (361) defined the basic teachings of Christianity in the Creed which goes by their name (and which is obligatory at Sunday Mass), against those who in one manner or another denied the unity of God, and the Divinity of the Son (“one in substance with the Father”) and of the Holy Spirit (“who proceeds from the Father and the Son”). It also asserted the true humanity of Christ “born of the Virgin Mary,” thus protecting the Incarnation of the Word, the Word-made-flesh, from the assault of heretics like Arius. Jesus Christ was indeed the Eternal Son, a Divine Person, who united in Himself both a Divine and human nature.

But yes, the oldest quotes I see are from Gregeory the Wonderworker from 261.

 

[jlhargus]

There is only one kingdom and Gentile and Jew are members alike. But I’m asking more of the political kingdom of ancient Israel under the rule of David’s lineage. Why did they crown the mothers to be queen? Were they following the customs of neighboring kingdoms in the same reasoning the kingdom was formed for Saul? Or was it that these kings were practicing polygamy where no wive could be honored above the other?

JL: Well it could be, it would be difficult to have multiple queens. I don’t recall a queen in the kingdom formed for Saul. Nor was Jerusalem the capital of Saul’s kingdom, it was David who conquered and made Jerusalem the capital. Whatever the reason, in the Davidic Kingdom, the son of David, King Solomon, who was to build a HOUSE FOR GOD (Temple, as Christ our King and Son of David is doing, with living stones.), honored his mother and set a throne for her. As God’s anointed king he had complete authority to institute any office he saw fit for the kingdom. The office of Queen Mother was continued as long as there was a SON OF DAVID on the throne.

Was there a heavenly decree handed down to Nathan or Samuel?

JL: Was there a heavenly decree handed down to Nathan or Samuel. for an office of Head Stewart or First Minister, along with other ministers, Is22:19-22, in the Davidic Kingdom? No, one was not needed. Was there a heavenly decree handed down condemning the office of Queen Mother? No, if God had not wanted a throne set, for the mother of the son of David, the prophets would have been the first to say so.

Not one prophet spoke against that throne throughout the centuries the kingdom of David had a son of David on the throne. Not even when all Judah, because of sin, was to go into exile. [Jer 13:18 **Say to THE KING and to THE QUEEN MOTHER, Come down from YOUR THRONES, for your GLORIOUS CROWNS will fall from your heads. 19 The cities in the Negev will be shut up, and there will be no one to open them. All Judah will be carried into exile, carried completely away.] Jeremiah a PROPHET of God, said YOUR THRONES, he calls BOTH their CROWNS GLORIOUS, seems God had no problem with the office of Queen Mother.

 

[jlhargus]

For whatever reason it is somewhat flawed to take a earthly custom without any spiritual significance and apply the same to the heavenly kingdom.

JL: The spiritual significance would be honor of our mother, as Mary said, henceforth ALL generations shall call me blessed, Lk1:48 and God has done GREAT THINGS FOR ME, Holy is His Name, Lk1:49.

Another spiritual significance would be intercession, as Solomon’s mother did. [1Kgs2:13 And Adonijah the son of Haggith came to Bathsheba the mother of Solomon. And she said, Comest thou peaceably? And he said, Peaceably. 14 … 15 … 16 And now I ask one petition of thee, deny me not. And she said unto him, Say on. 17 And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife.18 And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king. 19 Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And THE KING ROSE up TO MEET HER, AND BOWED HIMSELF UNTO HER, and sat down on his throne, AND CAUSED A SEAT TO BE SET FOR THE KING’S MOTHER; and SHE SAT ON HIS RIGHT HAND.]

Our Lady interceded with our Lord at the wedding of Cana. [Jn2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage. 3 And when they wanted wine, THE MOTHER OF JESUS SAITH unto him, THEY HAVE NO WINE. 4 JESUS SAITH unto her, WOMAN, WHAT HAVE I TO DO WITH THEE? **MINE HOUR IS NOT YET COME. 5 HIS MOTHER SAITH UNTO THE SERVANTS, WHATSOEVER HE SAITH unto you, DO IT. 6 … 7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. 8 … 9 …10 11 This BEGINNING OF MIRACLES did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, AND MANIFESTED FORTH HIS GLORY; AND HIS DISCIPLES BELIEVED ON HIM.] Although our Lord said His hour had not yet come. Mary full of grace and faith simply said, whatever he says, DO IT. Four things came about with Mary’s intercession at Cana. Jesus begin his public ministry, manifesting forth his glory, with his first public miracle, and his disciples believed on him.

We see the queen in heaven, RV 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in his temple THE ARK of his testament and there were lightnings and voices and thunderings and an earthquake and great hail 12:1 And THERE APPEARED A GREAT WONDER in heaven A WOMAN CLOTHED WITH THE SUN and the MOON UNDER HER FEET and UPON HER HEAD A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS 2 And she being with child cried travailing in birth and pained to be delivered] The woman is a literal person=Mary, who literally gave birth to the child, and a collective, symbolic of the Church, Old and New Covenant people of God.

As a former nondenominational bible church member, I can personally testify of Mary’s intercession bringing me into the Catholic Church. Of that there is not the slightest doubt on my part. I give thanks to God that I belong to one of the generations that call her blessed, Lk1:48, instead of one who calls her dead and gone.

Christ has broken down the dividing walls, in the earthly Temple, dividing Jew and Gentile. The Temple Christ is building, of living stones, reaches from earth to heaven. There are no dividing walls we are one people and have access, thru the one mediator, Jesus Christ, to the city of the living God and all those who dwell there. [Eph 3:14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom HIS WHOLE FAMILY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH derives its name.] HB 12:22 … YE ARE COME … TO the city of the living God the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM … the company of ANGELS 23 TO the general assembly and church of the firstborn … written in heaven … TO GOD THE JUDGE OF ALL … TO the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT 24… TO JESUS THE MEDIATOR … TO THE BLOOD of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Are we also going to start naming individuals to other monarchical positions in the one heavenly kingdom to mimic the earthy political kingdom of Israel?

JL: Well, not we, but Christ appointed ministers, as overseers, such as the Chief Stewart or First Minister, to whom he gave the keys of the kingdom, Mt16:13-19. [Mt19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That YE WHICH have FOLLOWED ME, IN THE REGENERATION when THE SON OF MAN SHALL SIT IN THE THRONE of his glory, YE ALSO SHALL SIT UPON twelve THRONES, JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel.

Lk22:28 YE are they which HAVE CONTINUED WITH ME IN MY TEMPTATIONS. 29 And I APPOINT UNTO YOU A KINGDOM, AS my Father hath APPOINTED UNTO ME; 30 That YE MAY EAT AND DRINK AT MY TABLE in my kingdom, and SIT ON THRONES JUDGING the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said, Simon, SIMON, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I HAVE PRAYED FOR THEE, that **THY FAITH FAIL NOT: and when thou art converted, STRENGTHEN THY BRETHREN.]

We eat and drink at the LORD’s TABLE, we call it MASS today. Peter is First Minister as he is given the keys to that kingdom, Christ the king, holds the keys by right, and delegates his authority with those keys to his First Minister, [Isa 22:19-22 & Mt 16:13-19]. Satan wanted to sift ALL the apostles, but Christ prayed ONLY that PETER’S FAITH to FAIL NOT, after he is converted. Peter is also to STRENGTHEN HIS BRETHREN, that would be ALL the brethren. Also Jn21:14-17 Jesus asked Peter three time, Do you love me MORE than these? THESE would be the other apostles, who were present. Peter said yes each time, Christ said feed my lambs feed my sheep. Peter is to feed ALL the flock, as universal pastor, the great and small.

 

[Brandom]

I apologize if this view has been stated or answered already, however there was much to read, I just joined today, and I wanted to take a crack at this.

So the question as to whether Mary is the mother of God:

First of all, God was before Mary, as was Jesus. The Gospel of John says that the Logos was in the beginning, was with God, and was God, therefore Jesus existed before Mary. God used Mary as a vessel to assume his human form. So yes, Mary gave birth to the Human form of God in Jesus, however he was not given life in her for he already was alive. Therefore the simplified equations I saw attempting to state that Mary is the Mother of God don’t seem to adequately answer the question.

Protestants may quickly agree that Mary is the Mother of God simply because many do not realize what is meant by the statement.

 

[Brandom]

Also, Matthew 1:25 clearly states that Joseph Consummated his marriage with Mary after the birth of Christ. Not to mention the numerous times Jesus’ Brothers are mentioned. Therefore there is a contradiction between that teaching on Mary and scripture.

 

[elvisman]

I apologize if this view has been stated or answered already, however there was much to read, I just joined today, and I wanted to take a crack at this.

So the question as to whether Mary is the mother of God:

First of all, God was before Mary, as was Jesus. The Gospel of John says that the Logos was in the beginning, was with God, and was God, therefore Jesus existed before Mary. God used Mary as a vessel to assume his human form. So yes, Mary gave birth to the Human form of God in Jesus, however he was not given life in her for he already was alive. Therefore the simplified equations I saw attempting to state that Mary is the Mother of God don’t seem to adequately answer the question.

Protestants may quickly agree that Mary is the Mother of God simply because many do not realize what is meant by the statement.

You are also espousing the Nestorian Heresy.
Jesus’ two natures cannot be divided, friend. He is fully human and fully God. To say differently is to create another Christ.

**Mary gave birth - NOT to a nature, but to christ, who united to himself TWO natures. **This is what is known aas the Hypostatic Union. Jesus is God (John 1:1).
Ergo, Mary is the Mother of God.

 

[elvisman]

Also, Matthew 1:25 clearly states that Joseph Consummated his marriage with Mary after the birth of Christ. Not to mention the numerous times Jesus’ Brothers are mentioned. Therefore there is a contradiction between that teaching on Mary and scripture.

You’re absolutely wrong about that. NOWHERE does Matthew 1:25 say any such thing.
I’m always a bit amused by the Protestant “proof” against the idea of Mary’s perpetual virginity because of the use of the word the word “until” in Matt. 1:25: "He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus."

Did Mary have other children after Jesus? The Bible does not support this idea. Let’s see what the Scriptures say about the use of the word, “until”.
2 Samuel 6:23** tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death.**
Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died*?***

**Let’s also examine Acts 2:34-35 (also see Psalm 110:1, Matt 22:44): For David did not go up into heaven, but he himself said: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool."’ **
Are we to surmise that Jesus will cease to sit at the right hand of the Father after his enemies are made his footstool? The problem here is that the anti-Catholic attempts to apply 21st century English to Hebrew and Greek from a culture thousands of years ago.

Finally, Mary’s question to the Angel Gabriel is very telling about her intention to remain a virgin:
Luke 1:34**:* Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”***
**Mary was a betrothed girl who knew about marital relations. She didn’t say “How can this be, since I have not known a man?” She said “How can this be, since I do not know a man?” **

She was stating her intention to remain a virgin and was puzzled by Gabriel’s announcement that she was to have a child. She knew that God was aware of her intentions. Her bewilderment and the words “I do not know”, as opposed to I have not known”, is clear evidence that she had no intention of having marital relations.

 

[jlhargus]

Also, Matthew 1:25 clearly states that Joseph Consummated his marriage with Mary after the birth of Christ. Not to mention the numerous times Jesus’ Brothers are mentioned. Therefore there is a contradiction between that teaching on Mary and scripture.

JL: Welcome to the CAF Brandom.

[GAL 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter and abode with him fifteen days 19 **But OTHER of the APOSTLES saw I none SAVE JAMES THE LORDS BROTHER ] The Apostle James was Bishop of Jerusalem. He was not a literal brother of the Lord, but kin, our Lord hand NO literal brothers or sister. James was a kinsman, the son of Zebedee, and one of the original twelve apostles. This refutes the tradition of men that ALL the Lord’s so called literal brothers were unbelievers, hence the reason Christ gave the care of Mary to John at the cross.

 

[Brandom]

You are also espousing the Nestorian Heresy.
Jesus’ two natures cannot be divided, friend. He is fully human and fully God. To say differently is to create another Christ.

**Mary gave birth - NOT **to a nature, but to christ, who united to himself TWO natures. This is what is known aas the Hypostatic Union. Jesus is God (John 1:1).
Ergo, Mary is the Mother of God.

Thank you for the explaination. I’m not sure I see how that divides the two natures. John states that “the Logos became flesh” yet, as God, he was devine before becoming flesh.

 

[elvisman]

Thank you for the explaination. I’m not sure I see how that divides the two natures. John states that “the Logos became flesh” yet, as God, he was devine before becoming flesh.

That was the whole point of the Coucil of Ephesus in 431.
Nestorious, Patriarch of Constantinople held that Jesus was not equal to the son of God, but that God dwelt in him. In doing so, he divided the 2 natures of Christ.

The Council declared the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union, which simply put, holds that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. These indivisible natures cannot be divided. They also declared Mary, Theotokos (God-Bearer) because of this.**

Hence, Mary gave birth to God himself. She did not give birth to the Father or the Holy Spirit. She did not give birth to a nature. She gave birth to the 2nd person in the Trinity, Jesus, who is God.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Zarthan, I commend you for seeking the truth. Blessings to you.

Can you tell me the source of the prayer you quoted? It seems interesting to pursue.

Please take a look at these two links:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sub_tuum_praesidium
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2BVM69.HTM

God bless.

 

[zarthan]

lil flower: Thank you for giving me the source of this beautiful, simple and heart-felt supplication of the Virgin Mary, Theotokos for prayer. I have little reason not to think that this Coptic supplication in Greek dates back to 250 AD. Thus, this would be evidence of the usage of term, Theotokos prior to the Nicene era.

On the other hand, The Genuine Acts of Peter, were not written by the blessed Archbishop Peter who was beheaded in martyrdom in 311 AD under Emperor Maximin. Rather, it is an account of his martyrdom and the controversy of Meletius the schismatic, and his student, Arius.

There were supposedly three accounts of his martyrdom. The account that I refer was translated from Greek by the Church of Rome librarian, Anastasius Bibliothecarius in the ninth century. For this reason, we could not accept this writing as a Pre-Nicene document.

Regarding the Oration Concerning Simeon and Anna supposedly by Methodius. I will wait until I have compared this writing with some of his other writings before I comment. (I have since learned by several sources, that the Four Homilies purported to be written by Gregory Thaumaturgus are almost universally acknowledged as spurious).

God’s peace be with you.

 

[Rocket_Man]

JL: Was there a heavenly decree handed down to Nathan or Samuel. for an office of Head Stewart or First Minister, along with other ministers, Is22:19-22, in the Davidic Kingdom? No, one was not needed. Was there a heavenly decree handed down condemning the office of Queen Mother? No, if God had not wanted a throne set, for the mother of the son of David, the prophets would have been the first to say so.

Not one prophet spoke against that throne throughout the centuries the kingdom of David had a son of David on the throne. Not even when all Judah, because of sin, was to go into exile. [Jer 13:18 **Say to

THE KING and to THE QUEEN MOTHER, Come down from YOUR THRONES, for your GLORIOUS CROWNS will fall from your heads. 19 The cities in the Negev will be shut up, and there will be no one to open them. All Judah will be carried into exile, carried completely away.] Jeremiah a PROPHET of God, said YOUR THRONES, he calls BOTH their CROWNS GLORIOUS, seems God had no problem with the office of Queen Mother.

Hummmm… By the same the same reasoning (No one spoke out against it) we can say that God also had no problem with the King’s polygamy.

 

[PRmerger]

Hummmm… By the same the same reasoning (No one spoke out against it) we can say that God also had no problem with the King’s polygamy.

This is not true.

Breaking Covenant Through Divorce
10 Do we not all have one Father[a]? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

11 Judah has been unfaithful. A detestable thing has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem: Judah has desecrated the sanctuary the LORD loves by marrying women who worship a foreign god. -Malachi 2:9-11

They must not marry widows or divorced women; they may marry only virgins of Israelite descent or widows of priests.–Ezekiel 44:22

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

So the question as to whether Mary is the mother of God:

The question is “Who do you believe Jesus is?” if you don’t believe that Mary is the Mother of God.

If someone were to hold the belief that Mary is Not the Mother of God, than using consistant logic that same person would have to also believe that Jesus is Not God. If that person were to believe that Jesus is God and Mary is Jesus’ Mother but come to the conclusion that His Mother Mary were Not the Mother of God, how does a person come to that conclusion?

From my perspective it doesn’t make any sense. If Jesus IS God than the only way Mary could NOT be the Mother of God is only if Mary is NOT His Mother.

Who do you really believe Jesus is, if you don’t believe Mary is the Mother of God?**

 

[minkymurph]

I apologize if this view has been stated or answered already, however there was much to read, I just joined today, and I wanted to take a crack at this.

So the question as to whether Mary is the mother of God:

First of all, God was before Mary, as was Jesus. The Gospel of John says that the Logos was in the beginning, was with God, and was God, therefore Jesus existed before Mary. God used Mary as a vessel to assume his human form. So yes, Mary gave birth to the Human form of God in Jesus, however he was not given life in her for he already was alive. Therefore the simplified equations I saw attempting to state that Mary is the Mother of God don’t seem to adequately answer the question.

Protestants may quickly agree that Mary is the Mother of God simply because many do not realize what is meant by the statement.

I can understand what you are saying, but I don’t think you can say Protestants who agree Mary is Mother of God don’t realise what is meant by the statement. Protestants I have met who agree Mary of is Mother of God do so because of their understanding of the Incarnation which is similar to the Catholic understanding; though not identical. Mary was given the title ‘Mother of God’ protect the divinity of Christ, no to elevate her above God. I would say it’s Protestants who don’t understand what Catholics mean when they use the term ‘Mother of God’ for Mary.

I would agree Mary was Mother of the Incarnate God, the second person of the Trinity. Catholics do not believe she was mother of God the Father or the Holy Spirit. However, because she was mother of Jesus who was fully God, she can be called Mother of God.

As far as simplified equations go, let’s get really technical :whacky::
Are any of us given life purely by sperm and egg? Does it not involve an eternal soul? All our souls are eternal and belong to God, and no human mother or father provides this. Therefore, there is part of all of us our father and mother did not provide.

Catholics are aware of the fact God existed before Mary.
Did Jesus exist before Mary? As the Logos yes, but in an Incarnate state, with the human body? No, because he had not become Incarnate. Did God use Mary’s DNA for the fully human part of Jesus to provide flesh? I’m not sure I can answer that one myself.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right hand.

*Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. 21And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
*
She worshipped Him. She knew He held a crown to a kingdom. Hadn’t she been told of the custom where the throne on the “right hand” was occupied by the “Queen Mother”?

While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Why had not the crowd cleared to make room for the “Queen Mother”.

 

[elvisman]

Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right hand.

Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. 21And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

She worshipped Him. She knew He held a crown to a kingdom. Hadn’t she been told of the custom where the throne on the “right hand” was occupied by the “Queen Mother”?

Maybe she forgot - or didn’t know.

WHY would you assume that all Jews were well-versed in the Scriptures? Don’t forget - when Jesus was on the cross and cried out, “Eli Eli lama sabachthani” - many of them didn’t realize that he was quoting Psalm 22. They thought he was crying out to the Prophet Elijah.

Not all of Israel were Scripture scholars . . .

While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Why had not the crowd cleared to make room for the “Queen Mother”.

**Because they didn’t recognize him as the King yet. He had not yet attained that title among the people. Remember - many believers would still fall away before the Crucifixion.

 

[jlhargus]

Hummmm… By the same the same reasoning (No one spoke out against it) we can say that God also had no problem with the King’s polygamy.

JL: Your are correct God did not speak out against it, nor did he condemn any king of Israel for polygamy. He allowed it just as he allowed divorce.

 

[jlhargus]

Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right hand.

Then came to him the mother of Zebedee’s children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him. 21And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.

She worshipped Him. She knew He held a crown to a kingdom. Hadn’t she been told of the custom where the throne on the “right hand” was occupied by the “Queen Mother”?

While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Why had not the crowd cleared to make room for the “Queen Mother”.

JL Do you think any of these really understood? If so I have some property in Forida I like to sell you. The apostles didn’t even get most of what Christ taught them before Pentecost.