If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ComeHome2Rome
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
GaryTaylor said:
I’m following you all the way till that last sentence. [The “body” in death from the human nature that remains is still seperation.]

Anyway, Christs human nature and his human body suffered together. I’m saying his human nature doesn’t seperate his divine nature because of the death of the human body? Why would that be?
Click to expand...
You must see where I’m confused. Now you are saying that His human nature did suffer as well as his human body when beforehand it was said by another poster in post 80: “Jesus’ human nature did not suffer from anything because He was free from sin. His physical, tangible body suffered and died for our sins.”

I am only trying to understand in the context of the heresy in Nestorianism. If we say that only the human body of the person Jesus died - the very same person Mary gave birth to, and His human nature suffered but did not die, then aren’t we in some sense doing a similar separation that Nestorius was accused for calling Mary the Mother of Christ instead of the Mother of God?
 
Rocket_Man said:
You must see where I’m confused. Now you are saying that His human nature did suffer as well as his human body when beforehand it was said by another poster in post 80: “Jesus’ human nature did not suffer from anything because He was free from sin. His physical, tangible body suffered and died for our sins.”

I am only trying to understand in the context of the heresy in Nestorianism. If we say that only the human body of the person Jesus died - the very same person Mary gave birth to, and His human nature suffered but did not die, then aren’t we in some sense doing a similar separation that Nestorius was accused for calling Mary the Mother of Christ instead of the Mother of God?
Click to expand...
JL: Christ is God MADE MAN, he was like us in all things BUT SIN. God MADE MAN expirenced everything any human being expirences including suffering. God expirenced death as a human being. He decended into Hell=English, Hades=Greek in his spirit and preached to the captives in Hades and rose on the third day in the same body althought, glorified.
 
tester said:
Let me say right off : I as a Protestant I agree with the concept of Theotokos.

.
.

In the same way: Theotokosmeans much more than Mother of God.
Click to expand...
Here’s your problem.

Theotokos means God bearer.

What are mothers? Those who conceived, bore and gave birth to their children.

What did Mary do? Precisely that.

And if Theotokos means MUCH MORE THAN MOTHER OF GOD, well then you are surpassing us in our honor of Mary :D. Good boy.👍

Now please enlighten us what this MUCH MORE is that we may honor her better still. 🙂
 
jlhargus said:
JL: Christ is God MADE MAN, he was like us in all things BUT SIN. God MADE MAN expirenced everything any human being expirences including suffering. God expirenced death as a human being. He decended into Hell=English, Hades=Greek in his spirit and preached to the captives in Hades and rose on the third day in the same body althought, glorified.
Click to expand...
Please clarify the statement " God experienced death as a human being" in the context of one hypostasis.
 
jlhargus said:
JL: Christ is God MADE MAN, he was like us in all things BUT SIN. God MADE MAN expirenced everything any human being expirences including suffering. God expirenced death as a human being. He decended into Hell=English, Hades=Greek in his spirit and preached to the captives in Hades and rose on the third day in the same body althought, glorified.
Click to expand...
Sorry I didn’t mean to avoid you Rocket Man I’m back on my regular system. The other was to slow.

Anyway yes I agree with jhargus. And I see He is strained a bit now with this, Its tough on the computer. What would normally be a more in-depth conversation becomes strained by “exactly” what one is saying.

I’m not sure who wrote post 80 or what their intentions were. I caught that in your last comment to me. I just felt I should expand a bit on that comment, which is basically what jhargus is also doing here now Rocket Man. Since he picked up on this also. Not trying to make anything more confusing.
 
JackVk said:
HOLD ON NOW! Who here has ever said that the Son did not exist until He was born of Mary? I’ve never heard such a preposterous thing. This thought is a heresy and a strawman.
Click to expand...
Wonderful to have such clarity of thought on display.👍👍👍
 
Rocket_Man said:
Please clarify the statement " God experienced death as a human being" in the context of one hypostasis.
Click to expand...
It called Hypostatic Union. Just google it for in depth definition’s. But heres one.

What is the hypostatic union? How can Jesus be both God and man at the same time?

The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.

Jesus’ two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus’ humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus’ actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.

The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58, 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1, 14).

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.
 
benedictus2 said:
Wonderful to have such clarity of thought on display.👍👍👍
Click to expand...
lol…The computer age. is it a Blessing or is google a path of destruction? Certainly seems to be a distraction, especially for those just trying to achieve understanding of the Catholic Faith, much distraction out here. Nothing like old fashion reading. For every Good Google sight there are Five abominations. I believe much of the problem is here.

CAF is a Blessing!
 
Esdra said:
And in which denomination were you then in before coming home to the CC, if I may ask?
No, I guess we all know that Mary was not responsible for the divinity of Jesus, but God (through His Holy Ghost; Mt 1:20 “But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.”

Although (this is a bit off-topic know, sorry), I don’t understand how Jesus could be a descendent of David; since He is not Joseph’s son (but God’s) who would be a descendent of David…
At least the CC teaches that Mary was a virgin her entire life, doesn’t she?
Mary isn’t a descendent of Mary, is she? wondering

Esdra
Click to expand...
Anne and Joachim were Mary’s parents. Anne conceived Mary thru the power of the holy spirit when she was around 80 years old hence the immaculate conception of Mary and the lineage to the house of David. so Mary was born without original sin and always full of grace:blessyou:☘️
 
Hmm… The day we find an answer to all our questions will be an interesting day.
 
GaryTaylor said:
It called Hypostatic Union. Just google it for in depth definition’s. But heres one.

What is the hypostatic union? How can Jesus be both God and man at the same time?

The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.

Jesus’ two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus’ humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus’ actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.

The doctrine of the hypostatic union is an attempt to explain how Jesus could be both God and man at the same time. It is ultimately, though, a doctrine we are incapable of fully understanding. It is impossible for us to fully understand how God works. We, as human beings with finite minds, should not expect to totally comprehend an infinite God. Jesus is God’s Son in that He was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). But that does not mean Jesus did not exist before He was conceived. Jesus has always existed (John 8:58, 10:30). When Jesus was conceived, He became a human being in addition to being God (John 1:1, 14).

Jesus is both God and man. Jesus has always been God, but He did not become a human being until He was conceived in Mary. Jesus became a human being in order to identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17) and, more importantly, so that He could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11). In summary, the hypostatic union teaches that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine, that there is no mixture or dilution of either nature, and that He is one united Person, forever.
Click to expand...
My question wasn’t to the Hypostatic Union alone but to explain how God died in context of the Hypostatic Union.

I found a article here: catholicposition.blogspot.com/2010/07/jesus-died-only-in-his-human-nature.html but the author interchanges terms and confuses.

He author writes “Yes it is correct to say “God died”. We can say it because Jesus Christ died in the human nature. In the phrase “God died” the term “God” refers to the Divine Person and not to the Divine nature. And the term “died” refers to the human nature (human body to be specific) and not to the Person.”

I would then ask why it is permitted to define death in the person of Jesus Christ using the human nature alone but it is not permitted to define birth in the person of Jesus Christ with Mary being the mother of the same human nature alone.
 
Rocket,
That is actually a really good question. But, you are only looking at it in terms of semantics (kind of like “fetus” and “baby”). Not that it is a bad thing though because your question is very legitimate. But his argument of “God died IN His human nature” is quite different than saying “God’s humanity died” or “only God’s humanity died.” I disagree with the way he had set up the argument but that is only because as a Catholic, I get his point. The way he said it is misleading.

Anyway, if I would use this argument, then I would say that “God died in His human FORM.” It would be the same as saying “The Apostles saw God in His human form” or “The Word [God] was made flesh [human].” Either way, both His divine nature and human nature are always there. The fact that we could not SEE His divine nature does NOT mean that it is separable. “We walk by faith and not by sight” right? He was ALWAYS God and ALWAYS Man. From the moment of His conception up until the moment of His death, He was always God AND Man and never anything else; or at no point in time was He ever God OR Man, just always God AND Man. Christ was concieved as God and Man and He died as God and Man. If we only look at His birth as ONLY the human nature, then we cannot even consider it an Incarnation (birth of God), where divinity meets infancy. Similarly, if we look at His death as dying ONLY in His human nature, then we cannot consider it an Atonement (capital A) because it would have been finite and not good enough. Perhaps this last sentence is a moot point but I think you get my point, or at least I hope you do. Am I making sense?

My point here is not to prove that Mary is the Mother of God. My point is to just help you understand what is meant if we say that “God died in His human nature.” The word “in” should also help a little in understanding the notion.

God bless,
Gregg
 
tester said:
Actually it is Gary who is confused with Catholic teaching

allow me to correct his false statements:

"God existed before Christ "

"Christ didn’t pre-exist, "

“There was no Son before Mary! There was God and the Holy Spirit before Christ? No?”

catholic.com/library/Eternal_Sonship_of_Christ.asp

The Eternal Sonship of Christ

“The Church Fathers who wrote the creeds had a different view. They recognized that the Bible depicts the Son as having his identity as the Son before his incarnation. In 1 John 4:9 we read, that “the love of God was made manifest among us [in] that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.” Thus, the second person of the Trinity was already the Son when he was sent into the world.”

wow Gary , over a thousand posts and you didn’t know that?
🤷

wow Catholics: no one corrected him on that?
Click to expand...
Actually, you obviously did not understand what Garry is saying or chose not to understand so you can post something that you think is a clever debunking.

Christ as the Messiah, the Incarnate Word did not exist as Incarnate Word prior to His Incarnation.

He existed as the Eternal Son of the Eternal Father, but He was not Eternally Incarnate because we all know and Scripture says so that His Incarnation began with Mary’s conception. We all know that that which is Eternal entered human history in Time.

Is that simple enough for you.
 
Rocket_Man said:
My question wasn’t to the Hypostatic Union alone but to explain how God died in context of the Hypostatic Union.
Click to expand...
God did not die in the context of the Hypostatic Union.

Jesus’s physical flesh died but not his humanity. Just as we when we die, we die only in the flesh, the soul does not. And the soul does not precisely because Christ in dying conquered death.

Remember that while Christ’s dead body lied there in the tomb, He went to the netherworld.

Our humanity and Jesus’s humanity does not consist merely in our physical selves.
 
tester said:
you have stated that

*"God existed before Christ "

"Christ didn’t pre-exist, "

“There was no Son before Mary! There was God and the Holy Spirit before Christ? No?”*

so I am asking you a direct question : please answer:

From all eternity past; was Christ ALWAYS the Son of God?
Click to expand...
He was always the Son of God but He was not always the Son of Mary.

The Eternal God before He was Son of Mary was not fully Human As Well, just Fully Divine.

The Fully Human and Fully Divine Son, only came into being when God chose to become Incarnate and enter Human History.

That is what I think Gary is saying.
 
benedictus2 said:
He was always the Son of God but He was not always the Son of Mary.

The Eternal God before He was Son of Mary was not fully Human As Well, just Fully Divine.

The Fully Human and Fully Divine Son, only came into being when God chose to become Incarnate and enter Human History.

That is what I think Gary is saying.
Click to expand...
👍

THE BIBLE SAYS IT ALL:

QUOTE:

 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:6-7 (KJV)

 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
John 1:1-4 (KJV)

 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:14 (KJV)

And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luke 1:43 (KJV)

And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. (Meaning Him described in John 1:14, John 1 – 4 and 1 John 5: 6-7
Luke 1:42 (KJV)
 
Rocket_Man said:
Are you saying then that God was not buried but only His dead body?
Click to expand...
yes. Christ truly died. therefore while Gods body was entombed He was very busy. announcing his victory to both those who had believed in the promise, such as abraham, issac and jacob. also to the powers of darkness, that he had victory over them. there was also the matter of the thief on cross. he had told the thief "this day shalt thou be with me in paradise. if you dont think he could not have been in more than one place at at a time, then read john 3, and his conversation with nicodemus. pay special attention to verses 12-13. read them in the king james translation, or the douay rheims. they are in agreement. most other translations have altered verse 13. peace 🙂
 
Rocket_Man said:
Are you saying then that God was not buried but only His dead body?
Click to expand...
What else do you bury but a dead body :confused:

Do you think God was still in that dead body?

Do you not believe that the soul separates from the body at death?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top