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ComeHome2Rome
Guest
Jesus was 1 of 3 things:
- Jesus was Who He said He was God
or - Jesus was crazy considering He claimed He was God
or - Jesus was a liar considering He claimed He was God
If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
The wedding at cana has been much defined since Augustine. What is Christs hour? Thats the question one must ask himself. His time to perform miracles? His time to turn water to wine so the party could continue and all could get drunk? Thats Biblical?
Christs “Hour” is the Cross. The wedding of cana is a direct correlation to the Cross. Christ made 520 liters of Wine. The finest wine ever tasted.
And the wedding was on the Third Day? Third day of what? When? Whats the sigificance of the Third Day? The story doesn’t reveal this information. So what is the Third Day and the Wine being the Blood of Christ?
The coming out of Jesus as Christ is ushered in at the Wedding of Cana. There is no Biblical significance to this wedding. Do you even remember who was married?
The simple fact is Mary is the one in charge of raising Jesus, the Christ. She tells Him when His Hour has come. Though that Hour is the Cross, because it is the most sigificant Hour of Christ, what now unfolds is the Christ. No miracles were performed before Cana. Jesus remains an unknown to all but the Holy Family. The Angel Gabriel visited Mary and Joseph both knew the reality of the child to be born and the prophecy of Isaiah. A guarded secret guided by God and the Angels. Mary and Joesph play a most important role in this boys childhood. Just as the Angels had them flee from Herod. At any point a mistake could have been made. But the judgement was always sound and always guided by God. Mary knows that now is the time and a sign is given. Mary is guided by God from the point of the Angel Gabriel appearing. “You have found favor with God” So what he leaves her for dead at this point? He never leaves Her yet She remains with a choice of Free Will. Nowhere does She fall short. Where does that happen? The first disciple and the last at the Cross.
The significance of the amount of Wine is the Blood of Christ to be an over abundance. To be spread for all eternity to all parts of the world. After the Crucifixtion. Thats the siginificance of the wine and His “HOUR”.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Christ is a Historical fact which dates directly to the Apostles and Peter. Paul, Matthew and John, Ignatius of Antioch etc. Sodom and Gomorrah has been located, Exodus all historically proven.
Do you realize how many witnessed his presence after his resurrection? Wheres the bodys?
Who moved the Rock? Where did Christ go?
Christ, who never assembled an army, never fought in a war, Never asked one soul to fight for him. Chose’s to die on the Cross. Says…Thats the best you got…Crucifixition? I’ll take that!
And 2000 years later his following is estimated at over 2 Billion. How did that happen? Because Mary and Jesus were mere people of no significance? Wow a good man and a woman, that must be the right answer.
CHANCE…it all happened by chance!!!
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: Yes, semantics, I think you have it. The only reason I can really see why Protestants can’t accept it, is simply because it’s a Catholic teaching.
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SunshineZA
Guest
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ByHisWounds
Guest
I suppose I should attempt to answer this as I am an American Baptist (Southern Baptist Convention). Jesus is God. He says “I and the Father are one.” We would never argue that. Mary, a young Jewish girl, bore Christ. We have no problem with this at all. What we do have a problem with is putting her on a pedestal. She was indeed blessed, but not perfect. She stands as an example that God uses ordinary people to accomplish His extraordinary Purpose. I have no problem with her being called the mother of God, but I do have reservations about her being referred to as “Queen of Heaven.” I understand that you believe Mary was sinless her entire life and I in no way meant to be disrespectful, I only meant to explain my thoughts on the issue. Hope that is okay.
Also the question about Jesus being from the line of David was an excellent one. Thank you to whoever posed that one.
Also the question about Jesus being from the line of David was an excellent one. Thank you to whoever posed that one.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: BHWs, this is good here, you are the first Protestant, aside from a mainline denomination, I have seen admit the obvious, Mary is Mother of God. I have Baptist cousins in Kentucky who do not accept it. As far as Queen of Heaven the following is a link to a post of mine on another line.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7365075&postcount=529
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: excerpt from Para 10. In my opinion, brethren, we have answered the heretics. Let us now answer the astrologers. … Well, let them believe Christ when He says, I have power to lay down my life and to take it up again: no man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself, and I take it again. John 10:18 Is this power then under fate? Let them show us a man who has it in his power when to die, how long to live: this they can never do. Let them, therefore, believe God when He says, I have power to lay down my life, and to take it up again; … ] newadvent.org/fathers/1701008.htm
Augustine is refuting heretics and astrologers, he is not dening Mary is Mother of God. Of course Mary is not the Mother of divinity in the sense that Christ in his divinity existed before Mary. Mary is Mother of God in time not eternity. As Augustine writes, “Let them, therefore, BELIEVE GOD when HE says, I have power to lay down my life, and to take it up again;”] Mary gave birth to God MADE FLESH, who said those words.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
What is the relevance to genetics of Christ relating to David? The fact that Josephs blood line is a direct desendant to David and He is the father of Christ be is biological or not. He is the father…Period.
He wasn’t introduced around to the family as “hey here’s Jesus my stepson”. Do you really think thats how that went? Matter of fact He was treated better because of “Divine Intervention”. Is that not obvious from the Bible?
Because Mary is “nothing special” in ones eyes means little. Many don’t care for “water” either. Yet its impossible to live without it?
She was indeed Blessed, “but not perfect?” How do you know She wasn’t perfect? Were you there? Did somene who was there tell you this? Does it say that “She wasn’t perfect” in the Bible? So wheres that notion come form? Becuase I would love to know how we arrive at that studious observation after reading Luke?
What we DO KNOW is what the Gospel of LUKE and Matthew does say. Should I quote that at the risk of being redundant?
What is that a simple case of listening to someone else, who “you think” knows more than you? How does one arrive at the point of “but not pefect”. When the Angel Gabriel exclaims HAIL MARY, Full of Grace. You have found favor with the Lord" “Blessed art thou among women” Naw…There wasn’t anything special there was there?
So would you say when Gabriel exclaims “Blessed art thou among Women” That would mean what? some women? a few women? or ALL WOMEN? What do you think?
You know “anyone” who found favor wth the Lord, Then He sent an Arch Angel to tell them so? You know anyone like that? Cause I never met anyone like that? So maybe its me? The Lord is with thee! You know anyone God told that to by His Personal Angel which BTW Gabriel is!
So either we shouldn’t take the Bible serious, or Mary is one seriously hand picked individual. And being the New Testatment is about Christ and not Mary I’d say that speaks volumes about Mary?
Maybe I’m not reading this correctly?
I wouldn’t bet the house on the “Queen of Heaven” theory being false either.
He wasn’t introduced around to the family as “hey here’s Jesus my stepson”. Do you really think thats how that went? Matter of fact He was treated better because of “Divine Intervention”. Is that not obvious from the Bible?
Because Mary is “nothing special” in ones eyes means little. Many don’t care for “water” either. Yet its impossible to live without it?
She was indeed Blessed, “but not perfect?” How do you know She wasn’t perfect? Were you there? Did somene who was there tell you this? Does it say that “She wasn’t perfect” in the Bible? So wheres that notion come form? Becuase I would love to know how we arrive at that studious observation after reading Luke?
What we DO KNOW is what the Gospel of LUKE and Matthew does say. Should I quote that at the risk of being redundant?
What is that a simple case of listening to someone else, who “you think” knows more than you? How does one arrive at the point of “but not pefect”. When the Angel Gabriel exclaims HAIL MARY, Full of Grace. You have found favor with the Lord" “Blessed art thou among women” Naw…There wasn’t anything special there was there?
So would you say when Gabriel exclaims “Blessed art thou among Women” That would mean what? some women? a few women? or ALL WOMEN? What do you think?
You know “anyone” who found favor wth the Lord, Then He sent an Arch Angel to tell them so? You know anyone like that? Cause I never met anyone like that? So maybe its me? The Lord is with thee! You know anyone God told that to by His Personal Angel which BTW Gabriel is!
So either we shouldn’t take the Bible serious, or Mary is one seriously hand picked individual. And being the New Testatment is about Christ and not Mary I’d say that speaks volumes about Mary?
Maybe I’m not reading this correctly?
I wouldn’t bet the house on the “Queen of Heaven” theory being false either.
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lil_flower_luv
Guest
Most Christians who are not Catholic deny that Mary is OUR Mother. (And to think we actually have Scripture to refute this.) I struggle with their belief because I cannot imagine Mary NOT being my Heavenly Mother. She has brought me to the place in my spirituality that I am at now. She is responsible for my Faith in the Church. All this she has done as the tender and loving Mother she is. How can you get to know your Savior if you do not know His Mother–the one who gave birth to Him? And He has given her to us??? Unfathomable.
Ave Maria!
Ave Maria!
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ByHisWounds
Guest
I have offended, though I promise that wasn’t my intention. I am still growing in my faith and learning. I was going off of Romans 3:23 which states that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. And later in Romans where it quotes from the OT asking “is one among you righteous, no not one.” I believe that Jesus was the only perfect one to walk the face of the earth. I know that isn’t what you believe and that is fine. The Bible does not state that Mary was born without oringinal sin either, but Catholics believe that, yes? I will never understand the entire Bible because who can understand the Mind of God? But I am studying and learning and love hearing different views. Even if that means I’m wrong. Blessings and thank you for your reply.
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Mamanurse
Guest
One thing that always makes me wonder as to how anyone could not believe that Mary was sinless is this: Do you think that God, in all His Glory and Wonder, would want His only Son to be born to a sinner? Why is it so hard to believe that God would want every single fiber of Jesus’ human flesh to be pure as well? Shouldn’t the vessel that brought forth God into human form be perfect as well?
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ByHisWounds
Guest
Do you believe that Mary was born of sinless parents? Yet she was kept from sin even if her parents were not perfect. So it is for me with Jesus. He was perfect despite his mother. Does that help explain my view whether you agree or not?
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JackVk
Guest
I think I said this either earlier in this thread or on another one, but…
Remember what Gabriel said to Mary when he greeted her at the annunciation?
“Hail, Full of Grace (that’s where we fish-eaters get it). You have found favor with the Lord. You SHALL bear a son, and you SHALL name him Jesus.”
In other words, Mary had no choice but to be the Mother of God. There was no tree with an abortificient apple in her backyard.
And about Mary being the Queen of Heaven: Haven’t you ever read Revelation 12:1? It goes like this:
“And then a great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, AND ON HER HEAD A CROWN OF TWELVE STARS”.
Just remember that, if Mary had not been the Mother of God, then we would have no reason to acknowledge her in the first place.
Oh, and by the way, there’s nowhere in the Bible that specifically states where Mary sinned. In fact, she’s very obedient.
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JackVk
Guest
ByHisWounds:
I hope I’m not coming off as rude or pompous. I was just trying to point out scriptural basis for Marian dogma.
Peace be with you.
I hope I’m not coming off as rude or pompous. I was just trying to point out scriptural basis for Marian dogma.
Peace be with you.
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ByHisWounds
Guest
The queen mentioned in Rev is symbolic for Israel (for us at least). The stars representing the tribes, her long expecting the Messiah, the pain in his coming. A lot of Revelation is symbolic and should be read with care. A lot of Catholics believe that Mary bore Jesus without birthing pains (because pain was a punishment for sin given to Eve) which is in direct contrast to the woman in Revelation. I’m not sure if that is what most Catholics believe that or not. Either way, maybe that answers your question. Forgive me, I haven’t studied in depth.
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ByHisWounds
Guest
And no, not at all! Like I said I really like hearing it. Hope you don’t mind me sharing my views either.
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JackVk
Guest
I’ve never heard anything about Mary not having birthing pains, not from Catholics or any other denomination. But let’s read on in Revelation 12:
"She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and His throne. The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken of for twelve hundred and sixty days (5-9).
Then in verses 13-18: “When the dragon saw that it had been thrown down to the earth, it pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle, so that she could fly to her place in the desert, wher, far from the serpent, she was taken care of . The serpent, however, spewed a torrent of water out of his mouth after the woman to sweep her away with the current. But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth and swallowed the flood that the dragon spewed out of its mouth.”
If the dragon never could affect the woman, it means that she never fell under his influence. If this is Mary,( and I’m sure it is, so not to beg the question), it would be consistent with the belief that Mary never sinned.
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ByHisWounds
Guest
That’s really neat and I hadn’t heard that before. Thanks for sharing. Like I said I definitely haven’t studied the passage enough to know.
J
JackVk
Guest
You’re welcome
- Status