If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[Cinette]

*What does "filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41) imply?

I understand that at the time the doctrine of the Trinity did not exist. Nevertheless Elizabeth “knew” that Mary was the “Mother of my Lord”. What did she understand by that? We don’t know and in our Faith we believe in mysteries. Do you understand* the Trinity? No, but you believe on Faith. We see miracles and mysteries all around us all the time. We are miracles and mysteries. The sun rises every day and sets at night - do we understand this mystery? The universe/creation is a mystery! Our belief in God helps us to accept mysteries.

 

[benedictus2]

No I don’t think Elizabeth thought the Son of God is God. But I do think she thought the Son of God, Jesus the Messiah was Divine. Who wouldn’t after all he is the Son of God. See the words “Son of God” is saying that she believed that Jesus was God’s Son, not God himself.

But do you think for a Jew, there is a difference in nature between that of the Son of God and the Father God?

Is there anything in the OT that would suggest for the Jews that the term Son of God does not mean that the Son is of the same nature as the Father, ie. God?

What I am trying to get at here is one says that the father is a dog, then essentially the offspring is a dog. Do you think the Jews thought along the same lines (sort of like Father like Son)?

Also, when you say that she thought Jesus was divine, is there anything else for a Jew that can be referred to as Divine other than God Himself?

 

[rev_kevin]

*What does "filled with the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:41) imply?

I understand that at the time the doctrine of the Trinity did not exist. Nevertheless Elizabeth “knew” that Mary was the “Mother of my Lord”. What did she understand by that? We don’t know and in our Faith we believe in mysteries. Do you understand* the Trinity? No, but you believe on Faith. We see miracles and mysteries all around us all the time. We are miracles and mysteries. The sun rises every day and sets at night - do we understand this mystery? The universe/creation is a mystery! Our belief in God helps us to accept mysteries.

There you said it “we don’t know what she meant.” It could be what you believe or it could be what I believe. We just don’t know for a fact.
As far as the sun goes yes we understand this mystery. See the earth rotates on its axes, it goes round and round. When its our turn to go around and face the sun its sun rise and when its our turn to go around again and the other side of the earth is facing the sun then for us its sun set. Then the cycle repeats over and over and over again.

Luke 41 she was FILLED with the HS but it don’t say she was inspired by the HS to say anything. I can be filled with joy from the HS but that don’t mean I’m inspired to show it or say something joyful.

 

[The_Sentry]

:whacky::whacky:There’s a hole in my bucket dear Kevin dear Kevin … there’s a hole in my bucket dear Kevin, a hole:shrug:

Now that song’s stuck in my head for the rest of the night

 

[benedictus2]

Luke 41 she was FILLED with the HS but it don’t say she was inspired by the HS to say anything.

Yes! And that is exactly what I was trying to say before.

It was not like she was a prophet or anything like that. All we know is that she was filled with the Holy Spirit and having been so filled, she came to recognize that the child in Mary’s womb is her Lord. And this is a knowledge that was not known to every one else. She came to this knowledge only after being filled with the Holy Spirit.

So we ponder, what was it exactly that would have been made known to her to refer to the child as her “Lord”.

And it is interesting as Cinette has noted that after referring to the Child as Lord, Mary responds with “My soul magnifies the Lord”.

Cinette also made a very good point when she said that it is a mystery. It is possible that Elizabeth knew the child was Son of God in the fullest sense even though the how it can be eludes her and it is just something she accepted as a mystery after the revelation of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Cinette]

:extrahappy::extrahappy:

Now that song’s stuck in my head for the rest of the night

 

[SunshineZA]

Luke 41 she was FILLED with the HS but it don’t say she was inspired by the HS to say anything. I can be filled with joy from the HS but that don’t mean I’m inspired to show it or say something joyful.

Mary visited Elizabeth when the last mentioned was already 6 months pregnant. Mary’s pregnancy was not visible yet and Elizabeth could not have known that she was unless she spoke under the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Just a few Old Testament Texts to remind us about the purpose of the Holy Spirit alighting on individuals. i.e. Elizabeth (still old testament dispensation) and her utterance about Jesus Christ our unborn Saviour.

[SIGN]And Jehovah came down in the cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and put it upon the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied .
Num 11:25 (ASV)

Samson: …And the Spirit of Jehovah came mightily upon him, and he rent him as he would have rent a kid; and he had nothing in his hand:
Judges 14:6 (ASV)

And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as head over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied
1 Sam 19:20 (ASV)[/SIGN]

 

[Dokimas]

*Context, my dear fellow, context!

Ever heard of the word?

*

Does it actually mean God or sometimes does it refer to God?

Context: Before Jesus was revealed as God. (Not before He was know to be special, no doubt.)

 

[Dokimas]

*You say you were never Catholic and yet you can disagree with Catholics about what we state the CC teaches!

We quote the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is an explanation of what we believe. Don’t you think that you are being pretentious by disagreeing as it is not a matter of opinion but a matter of FACT.

*

Correction: I don’t doubt any of you when you tell me what your church teaches. Of course, sometimes some of you disagree with each other what the CC actually teaches on specific subjects. However, what I disagree with, SOMETIMES, is your understanding of what the Bible says. IMO, a HUGE difference from what you said.

The fact I question is the actual understanding from the Bible/Holy Spirit. I try to always qualify my understandings with some sort of statement that shows I may be wrong. You never think your understanding could be wrong; at least you don’t say anything that would suggest you could be wrong.

 

[Dokimas]

Elizabeth?

If you’re following what was said, my point exactly. Please look back.

 

[Dokimas]

And which Catholic doctrine ever said she is? (In response to Mary being a savior)

gnfc.org/coredeem.html

"Though denied by a Vatican spokesman, it has been widely reported in the media recently that Pope John Paul II may be about to make an infallible proclamation, recognizing Mary as the co-redeemer of the human race. Though a long-time Catholic doctrine, such a declaration would elevate the belief to the level of dogma. This would establish Mary’s role as **co-redeemer **as part of the “deposit of faith,” a divinely revealed truth, not simply a theological conclusion. The following excerpt from The Gospel According to Rome explains what the Church of Rome means by Mary’s work of redemption and why this teaching is unbiblical. Bracketed numbers are cross-references to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

"

 

[Dokimas]

Are you saying she said my Lord without knowing my Lord meant? Remember, she was not making a prophecy here.

So please stop evading the question. If you are saying that Elizabeth did not mean God by the term Lord, then what did she mean. After being filled with the Holy Spirit, why did call Mary the Mother of her Lord.

Who is this Lord for Elizabeth according to you.

You must have some idea because you have stated that you think she did not mean God so therefore, who is this Lord?

She, Elizabeth, knew what Lord meant. It doesn’t mean God. It may refer to God but does not mean God. It refers to what the Greek word means.

 

[Dokimas]

Yes but…yes but…yes but:shrug:…yes but

Let me deviate from the topic for a moment: Cinette, too many buts; I suggest you stop smoking. It’s bad for your health.

 

[Dokimas]

Well Elizabeth was not Catholic and according to your last statement here if your not Catholic your not filled with the HS but Elizabeth a non-Catholic was filled with the HS.???

Interesting.

Where does it say that the disciples knew Jesus was God?

Before the resurrection, I haven’t seen any evidence, course I may be blind.

What Elizabeth meant has been discussed over and over here.

Good observation. I’m not sure why I keep being asked. Maybe I have a hard time communicating what I mean.

Well I’m not saying Elizabeth is ignorant. What I’m saying is she is human with human thoughts and understanding. The HS can direct you in the right direction or thought but being human we often don’t know what or why, we just do it.

A point I’ve tried to make. You said it better than I did. Thank you.

 

[Dokimas]

Sorry, I didn’t know it was anti-catholic.

My deepest apologies to my catholic friends.

If I could, I’d cancel the link.

Maybe a moderator will get rid of the link.

Is the info correct, though?

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Let’s at least TRY to keep the discussion on an adult level.
Thank you.

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Context of Luke includes the “rest” of chapter one, then procedes to chapter two. By the time we read “both” chapters its apparent who Jesus is. He is Christ, Son of God, who is born Son of Mary.

2:26 And it had been revealed to him[Simeon] by the Holy Ghost, that he shall not see death before he had seen the Lords, Christ.

And we then see that Christ is Jesus who is now bought before Simeon.

2:49 And Jesus said to them, How is it that you sought Me? Is it not that I must about My Fathers business?

Well Jesus wasn’t talking about Joseph, it was Mary and Joseph seaching for Him, So Jesus was speaking about His Father, GOD. Which “if” we read the “rest” of the “context” of chapter one and two it becomes obvious to the authers intent.

So is it not established by LUKE chapter 2, Mary is the Mother of the “Son of God”. Who “is” God.

If you wrote a summary of Luke by reading the KJV how else would describe Mary and Her Son?

I fail to see the relevance of being stuck on the Visitation. Especially when in “context” you have to deal with the Annunciation and Prophecy of Simeon to conclude the “context summary”. Let alone the “rest” of Luke and the following Gospel.

Luke also tells us Mary keep all of what happened in Her Heart. Which means She didn’t run about town exclaiming anything. She knew what transpired with Gabriel and God. How the chain of events unfolds becomes the work of God, not Marys word.

Theres a level of assumption in all comprehension. When Dorthy was off to see the Wizard, we could have assumed the Wizard was God also, but the “CONTEXT and SUMMARY” show us who the Wizard is. So, what was not abunantly clear from moment to moment becomes understood as we read. I fail to see the logic of where have ended up her on this thread.

What is the “point” of where in the Bible “Christ” actually becomes “known” as GOD? The belief is there in Luke and becomes known to all as the story unravels, even up to this day in 2011. These “points” only confirm what has already transpired in the past scripture verse and are assumed to be Truth.

Luke 1-32 to 35 clearly explains by Gabriel who Jesus is and that it “will” become a known fact. All that then remains is for the word of God to then become fact.

So on fact Mary becomes the Mother of Christ who is in fact God.

BTW your invited to start another thread about Co-Redeemer. In fact the entire Faith Co-Redeems through Jesus Christ. So I wouldn’t accept that drival you read as Gospel.

 

[PRmerger]

Actually I did not say that if you are not Catholic you are not filled with the Holy Spirit. What I said that you non-denominationals do not have it written in the inerrant Bible that you are filled with the Holy Spirit. Any claims you might make to being filled with the Holy Spirit is not backed up by the inerrant Bible.

Interesting. I’d never thought about this before, but I think you are correct, b2.

I can’t think of a single verse in Scripture that says a Christian is filled with the HS.

 

[PRmerger]

Like I said in my other posts here. I believe that the word Lord spoken by Elizabeth meant God.

This, my Catholic brothers and sisters, is HUGE. It is a very humble acknowledgment by revkev that Mary as the MOTHER OF GOD is indeed Scriptural.

Whether Elizabeth knew conceptually what she was saying or, like Mary, pondered this in her heart, is irrelevant. If she did, that’s wonderful. If she didn’t, it doesn’t matter, because she still proclaimed it, when filled with the HS.

 

[Cinette]

*It seems to me that it is silly and futile to speculate that Elizabeth knew whether Jesus was God the Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. It makes no sense to imagine what she was actually thinking when we know what she was said under the influence of the Holy Spirit and what her words meant. I think that we can assume that she knew something others did not know and that Mary, also filled with the Spirit knew that the child within her was very special. In fact, that her child was the Son of God because the Holy Spirit told her. Whether she fully understood is not important because she came to understand.

We know that the Apostles were probably illiterate but they were chosen anyway. They witnessed life with Jesus and His miracles and then finally they are empowered (at Pente cost) to go and spread the Good News. They were so motivated and driven that they were prepared to die for Jesus and history tells us that they were all martyred with the exception of John. What makes a man be prepared to give up everything and follow Jesus?

In our modern day we see the same thing with the many good and holy men who give up all their worldly possessions and go for the priesthood – especially in our time when the world has become so secular and immoral. Temptation is in our face 24/7 Only recently a young man in a nearby Parish with a promising career – he had studied Actuarial Science and worked for 6 ½ years before deciding that he had a vocation and so went off to seminary – he was ordained last week. He gave up a very well paid job for God. Our priests give up the possibility of marriage and choose to shepherd the flock instead – they are so busy taking care of the flock that there is no time for family life. We have seen many with Phds who could make lots of money give it all up for the priesthood. They put their education to use for the Church instead. What makes a man do that?

We also find many good women who give up everything to seek life in Convents to pray for the salvation of the world and who work as teachers, nurses and many other activities. There is the example of Dolores Hart who, at the height of a film career in Hollywood give up all the money and glamour to enter a convent (contemplative) and she has been happy for over 50 years in her monastery. There are many examples of missionary priests and nuns who have died martyrs for the faith – cruel and horrible deaths – and those who contracted diseases which took their lives. What makes women do that?

While the Catholic Church has a long history of good and holy men other Christian missionaries have also suffered martyrdom (and continue to suffer in many anti-Christian countries today) and experienced hardship for the Faith.

These are the fruits of the Body of Christ, the fruit of Christianity and they testify to the truth of the Faith. We salute them and pray for them.

Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would guide His Church and that He would be with us always. Jesus kept that promise. However, there are many Judases in every walk of life. The evil one is active and wants to destroy the Kingdom of God …but he doesn’t stand a chance. The sad thing is that he will take many souls with him.