If you do Not believe that Blessed Mary is the Mother of God, than who do you believe Jesus Christ is?

[GaryTaylor]

I never said that Mary is not the Mother of God. But did they realize it back then. I doubt it.
Now as stated before LORD has different meanings.

Emmanuel meaning: God with us/God (is) with us. Now this could refer to God’s word being brought to us throught his Son. The angel could have meant that the word of God will be with us through Jesus. Joseph could have taken it to mean it that way and he probably did. God (is) with us. God’s word is with us. Yes the WORD of God like you stated.

Yes this is true but the question is not if I know it but did they know it. And I don’t believe they did.

This verse here does Not have different meaning’s. Mary was told by God messenger who the baby is, was, and would be. And its a foregone conclusion She clearly understood the Old Testament.

Luke 1:34-35
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

What Mary knew is in no doubt. I fail to see that logic.

Could the Trinity be debated in Marys knowledge? Its certainly Old Testament, as is the prophecy of Christ through the entire chapter of Isaiah 53. Being it is one of the most relevant books in the Old Testament, you could best believe Mary knew it. That Messiah in Isaiah is the Messiah that the Jewish faith waited on, and many still are. Then when you have Gabriel sent from God, with Gods personal message, telling you who your Son will be? Whatever depth of Faith and belief Mary may or may not have had? I can assure you Her faith shot through the roof at that Annunciation. She left there on a New Mission from God, without a doubt. And as Luke unfolds its obvious Mary also knew She was covered by Gods hand. Simeon, Nativity, Flight to Egypt etc.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What did Elizbeth know?

Well, her husband was a Jewish Rabbi, so without a doubt She had indepth understanding of Jewish law and Faith.

She could not bear children, then She receives Gods Grace, a Blessing and a Prophet for a Son in John, who was also a prophecy of Isaiah. Luke 15-20, becomes what Elizabeth comes to clearly know as Gods work, prophet and the one who will prepare the way for the Lord. As Isaiah clearly states, “Make straight in the Wasteland a path for our God” That was John the Baptist Isaiah spoke of and Luke and Isaiah know that Prophet is the one before God. And the Holy Family knew that also. And then Gabriel is sent to Announce Gods Plan of World Salvation? And you actually think at this point it went over their head? God picked these people, and then He reached out and touched them ALL. And in that moment all their lifes were forever changed.

Luke the procedes directly from Elizabeths birth to Marys Annunciation and directly back to Elizabeth. No extra verse of Scripture, and Luke connects all three events, because they are connected in Gods plan. And when the Holy Spirit descended on Elizabeth a second time, she knew what was going on as did the entire Holy Family. Look at the events that just unfolded. Elizabeth and Her husband, Mary and Hers all knew they were touched by God. Just like all who are touched by God know.

Do you actuually think God left Mary out their for dead carrying His Son? At that point Jesus Christ couldn’t become reality without intercession from others on Marys behalf in their own free-will. And they all chose God.

The magnitude of Luke is clearly underestimated here. This “is” the event Israel waited on for over a thousand years. The Holy Family “are” Old Testament.

 

[Bill_Bixby]

sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=101004132955

 

[elvisman]

But Elizabeth did not speak Greek. She was a Jew. The common language at that time was Aramaic.

As Elvis has pointed out, she would have uttered the word Maryah which translates to Lord God.

And this is precisely Doki’s folly.
He simply cannot get past the Greek, which you need to do to understand the NT.

 

[elvisman]

The Aramaic word “marya” used in place of the Tetragremmaton (YHWH) throughout the Tanakh Old Teatament is better understood as “MarYah.” It is also a contraction of 2 words; "Mar- Aramaic for “Lord” or “Master” and “Yah”- the short form of the Divine name “YHWH” or “YAHweh.”

The actual Aramaic word is spelled Mem Resh Yodh Alap (marya). None of the letters are capitalized in the Aramaic text known as the Peshitta Tanakh or Syriac Old Testament. Therefore, to write the word as “MarYah” as opposed to “marya” is misleading. It is reading only one’s theology into the word and then teaching it.

Since the word “marya” was used in the Peshitta New Testament in reference to Messiah Yahshua, it means Yahshua is Yahweh (MarYah). That is the result of mistakenly understanding “marya” to mean the Divine Name YHWH as to opposed to it being a title meaning “Lord” or “Master.”

It is often stressed by MarYah proponents since “marya” was used to replace the Tetragammaton in almost 7,000 instances in the O.T. that means it must mean “YHWH.” However, the word “Kurios” was consistently used throughout the Septuagint (Greek O.T.) to replace “YHWH”. Does that make “Kurios” mean “YHWH”? No. “Kurios” is simply a Greek word meaning “Lord” that was used as a substitute for “YHWH.”

“marya” is the Aramaaic substitution for the Tetragrammaton (YHWH). “MarYa” is not the transllteration of “YHWH.” It is a substite used to avoid pronouncing the Name when reading the Aramaic text. This is in keeping with the common Jewish practice of not pronouncing the Name and Place erroneous vowel points around the Tetragrammton. to signal the reader to say “Adonai” (Lord).

If “YHWH” was written in Aramaic letters within the Greek text of the Septugaint. it could have been, and may have been, written in the original Aramaic Peshitta Tanakh as well. It wasn’t, it should have been rather then using “MarYa.”

Thank you for bolstering my position.

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**There has been a reluctance on this thread to accept the fact that Elizabeth (and 1st century Jews living in Palestine in general) spoke Aramaic – even though Scriptural and history scholars overwhelmingly agree on this point.

---

The reason I capitalized the contraction was simply to illustrate that is was a contraction in the first place. Otherwise, the word winds up looking like “Mary” with an “A” assed to the end in the mind of the 21st century English-speaking American.

 

[Cinette]

I never said that Mary is not the Mother of God. But did they realize it back then. I doubt it.
Now as stated before LORD has different meanings. To say that Elizabeth knew he was God seems way out there. I believe she used it as a title for someone who would be great, much like a king, which Jesus is, was called My Lord by his people. The kings mother would be known as the mother of my Lord also.

Emmanuel meaning: God with us/God (is) with us. Now this could refer to God’s word being brought to us throught his Son. The angel could have meant that the word of God will be with us through Jesus. Joseph could have taken it to mean it that way and he probably did. God (is) with us. God’s word is with us. Yes the WORD of God like you stated.

Now you would think I’m dodging the truth because you see the truth only one way as where I see it in many ways. I look at possibilities. Could it mean this or could it mean that. I make up my own mind, the mind that God gave me. I don’t let some church tell me how to think.

Mary is mother of my Lord.
My Lord IS God.
Mary is Mother of God.

Yes this is true but the question is not if I know it but did they know it. And I don’t believe they did.

Just come home to the Church. I am home. Jesus Christ is the true Church that dwells inside all believers. I once was lost but now I’m found.

*Great so you believe that Mary is the Mother of God! Very good. But once we have the outcome why go wasting time speculating what Elizabeth’s understanding was? What point are you trying to make rev kevin???

*

 

[Cinette]

I never said that Mary is not the Mother of God. But did they realize it back then. I doubt it.
Now as stated before LORD has different meanings. To say that Elizabeth knew he was God seems way out there. I believe she used it as a title for someone who would be great, much like a king, which Jesus is, was called My Lord by his people. The kings mother would be known as the mother of my Lord also.

Emmanuel meaning: God with us/God (is) with us. Now this could refer to God’s word being brought to us throught his Son. The angel could have meant that the word of God will be with us through Jesus. Joseph could have taken it to mean it that way and he probably did. God (is) with us. God’s word is with us. Yes the WORD of God like you stated.

Now you would think I’m dodging the truth because you see the truth only one way as where I see it in many ways. I look at possibilities. Could it mean this or could it mean that. I make up my own mind, the mind that God gave me. I don’t let some church tell me how to think.

Mary is mother of my Lord.
My Lord IS God.
Mary is Mother of God.

Yes this is true but the question is not if I know it but did they know it. And I don’t believe they did.

Just come home to the Church. I am home. Jesus Christ is the true Church that dwells inside all believers. I once was lost but now I’m found.

*If you believe in Jesus then you should believe in His words, His instructions, His Church which he founded. You choose to believe what you want to believe. That, my friend, is not right.

*

 

[Cinette]

sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=101004132955

*We Catholics are rather tired of this nonsense. Before you believe these lies why don’t you read up on the difference between worship and reverence? Why don’t you find out what Catholics believe from Catholics instead of from its enemies? That would be the intelligent thing to do.

Furthermore you should do some reading of Church History. But to just accept some drivel which the Church’s enemies put out is really an insult to your intelligence.

Are you participating in this debate or just putting a spanner in the works? That is what the enemy does.

*

 

[Bill_Bixby]

*We Catholics are rather tired of this nonsense. Before you believe these lies why don’t you read up on the difference between worship and reverence? Why don’t you find out what Catholics believe from Catholics instead of from its enemies? That would be the intelligent thing to do.

Furthermore you should do some reading of Church History. But to just accept some drivel which the Church’s enemies put out is really an insult to your intelligence.

Are you participating in this debate or just putting a spanner in the works? That is what the enemy does.

*

Well if you listened to it tell me what’s wrong. I am neither protestant nor catholic, just someone searching for the truth and have been reading opposing views.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Well if you listened to it tell me what’s wrong. I am neither protestant nor catholic, just someone searching for the truth and have been reading opposing views.

The OP Has nothing to to do with your link. Post that as a New Thread with you question, and you can open that course of debate. Or use the Search engine I have no doubt there is much already on it.

Follow what I’m saying Bill Bixby the Incredible Hulk?

 

[Cinette]

Well if you listened to it tell me what’s wrong. I am neither protestant nor catholic, just someone searching for the truth and have been reading opposing views.

*Well, you are now on Catholic Answers where you will get plenty of opportunities to learn and get answers to the fullness of the truth.

Get to know the history and the teachings of the Catholic Church and and keep an open mind.

Good luck.

*

 

[rev_kevin]

*If you believe in Jesus then you should believe in His words, His instructions, His Church which he founded. You choose to believe what you want to believe. That, my friend, is not right.

*

I’m sorry but as I have said time and time again on the CAF that I don’t believe Jesus started the CC. Scritpure says that Christ is the Church. It never says that he started any kind of Church. If I’m wrong please show me where he started a Church. I believe in his Word and in his instruction but not the way the CC see it.

 

[rev_kevin]

*Great so you believe that Mary is the Mother of God! Very good. But once we have the outcome why go wasting time speculating what Elizabeth’s understanding was? What point are you trying to make rev kevin???

*

Dorimas brought it up

BTW, has anyone looked at how many people the NT records that called Jesus Lord? If you believe Elizabeth equated Lord with God, do you also believe the others knew Jesus was God?

But you have to admit, it makes good conversation/ discussion.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Dorimas brought it up

BTW, has anyone looked at how many people the NT records that called Jesus Lord? If you believe Elizabeth equated Lord with God, do you also believe the others knew Jesus was God?

But you have to admit, it makes good conversation/ discussion.

She did not equate them! She knows “my Lord” is not equivalent to “God”! Nor are we equating them. But, in this case, she is referring to God. They all are. In the Old Testament, it says “And the Lord said” numerous times but they knew exactly who it was.

 

[rev_kevin]

She did not equate them! She knows “my Lord” is not equivalent to “God”! Nor are we equating them. But, in this case, she is referring to God. They all are. In the Old Testament, it says “And the Lord said” numerous times but they knew exactly who it was.

Let me clearify this: BTW, has anyone looked at how many people the NT records that called Jesus Lord? If you believe Elizabeth equated Lord with God, do you also believe the others knew Jesus was God? This is not my quote, its Dorimas’.
Because you asked: Great so you believe that Mary is the Mother of God! Very good. But once we have the outcome why go wasting time speculating what Elizabeth’s understanding was? What point are you trying to make rev kevin???
And I responded with: I don’t know.

Now if Lord is not equivalent to God why was Elizabeth referring to the word Lord as God when she said, “Mother of my Lord?”

They all are. In the Old Testament, it says “And the Lord said” numerous times but they knew exactly who it was. Wouldn’t this statement have to do with context ie, what was the context they were useing the word Lord in?

 

[Dokimas]

But you don’t know that. There is nowhere in the Bible that says she meant Lord but that this did not mean God.

Words have meaning. Lord doesn’t mean God but may refer to God.

And you still have not answered the question. This is probably the 6th time I will have asked you. What did she mean by the Lord.

I gave you what the Greek word means. Take that meaning as my answer.

That does not make sense. You say it “may” which give possibility, then you say “does not” which denies possibility.

Example: does the name ‘Jesus’ means God? NO. Many have the name Jesus but only one is God. Lord does not mean God.

But Elizabeth did not speak Greek. She was a Jew. The common language at that time was Aramaic.

Did the Holy Spirit inspire Luke to use the word he used? That’s your answer.

As Elvis has pointed out, she would have uttered the word Maryah which translates to Lord God.

Kev answered Elvis’ point.

 

[Dokimas]

And this is precisely Doki’s folly.
He simply cannot get past the Greek, which you need to do to understand the NT.

Are you saying you get past what the Holy Spirit inspired? I shouldn’t get past what God has said the way He’s said it.

 

[benedictus2]

I’m sorry but as I have said time and time again on the CAF that I don’t believe Jesus started the CC.

If you are very confident of this belief, would you be willing to engage us in a discussion on this in another thread so as not to derail this one?

I would really like to discuss this with you because we can’t just say I don’t believe this or I believe that. There has to be a foundation for that belief.

If you are game, I will start another thread and give you the link.

Peace!

Cory

 

[benedictus2]

Are you saying you get past what the Holy Spirit inspired? I shouldn’t get past what God has said the way He’s said it.

You are saying that God said Hi Words in Greek?

 

[rev_kevin]

If you are very confident of this belief, would you be willing to engage us in a discussion on this in another thread so as not to derail this one?

I would really like to discuss this with you because we can’t just say I don’t believe this or I believe that. There has to be a foundation for that belief.

If you are game, I will start another thread and give you the link.

Peace!

Cory

Sure why not, I’m game.