If you don't believe in Purgatory....

[Pouncedo]

Yes, that is true, but my question asks about how the transformation occurs from mortal to immortal. Do you have a speculation?

Forgive a newbie for the flubs. There is a verse in the old Testament about being put through a fire so that the dross is burned away and nothing is left but the gold…wouldn’t this be purgatory? As to mortal, immortal…we all have an immortal soul…no matter where it ends up.

 

[SyCarl]

But why? If sin is in our soul as well as our bodies, why would it fall away when our bodies die? I continue to think that this is a superficial understanding of sin as well as of salvation and of the human person in general. I don’t think our bodies and souls are as distinct as this implies.

Edwin

I don’t know why. I clearly stated in my original post that it was merely speculation.

How is it a superficial understanding of sin an salvation? Sin is anything that is contrary to God’s will. This includes doing good for the wrong reasons such as personal glory or hope of reward. The wages of sin is death. We deserve death but through faith we are forgiven. We don’t earn salvation but we should show the fruits of it through our works; works done simply because we want to please God and glorify Him.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The faith as described in the catechism is construed as a work of receiving grace from the activity of one in the sacrements.

That isn’t the only means of grace according to the Catholic Church. Check out Catechism paragraphs 1996-2005. Complete with many Scriptural cross-references!

Christ himself being the saving mechanism totally apart from the workings of the church.

Also check out what is meant by the “Church” in Catechsim paragraphs 811-870. But that’s a lot to read. Especially look around 846 and following. The reason I don’t take the position of “either” Christ “or” the Church is because of the oneness of the two, as described in Scripture and also there in those paragraphs, et al.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Forgive a newbie for the flubs. There is a verse in the old Testament about being put through a fire so that the dross is burned away and nothing is left but the gold…wouldn’t this be purgatory?

Can you provide the verse? I’m not quite that advanced at referencing yet!

As to mortal, immortal…we all have an immortal soul…no matter where it ends up.

True. Perhaps I should have repeated my original question in that how do we become “non-sin prone” eternal beings.

 

[Contarini]

I don’t know why. I clearly stated in my original post that it was merely speculation.

How is it a superficial understanding of sin an salvation?

Because you think that the soul automatically becomes free from sin when the body dies. Sin affects the soul, not just the body–in fact, I don’t think we can separate out body and soul that way.

Sin is anything that is contrary to God’s will. This includes doing good for the wrong reasons such as personal glory or hope of reward. The wages of sin is death. We deserve death but through faith we are forgiven. We don’t earn salvation but we should show the fruits of it through our works; works done simply because we want to please God and glorify Him.

And yes, this is superficial if it doesn’t deal with how we are transformed from the selfish people you describe who do even good deeds for the wrong reasons, to beings who can exist in God’s presence for all eternity.

Forgiveness is the starting point, but you and so many Protestants speak as if it were the whole story.

Edwin

 

[justasking4]

The doctrine of purgatory is not taught in the Scriptures and is unecessary in light of what Christ has done for us. His death on the cross took care of all our sins past, present and future. Here is what Paul said about the ramifications of the death of Christ for us in Colossians 2:13-14 where he writes:
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The idea of needing further “purification” in purgatory would mean that what he wrote here is a lie.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

The doctrine of purgatory is not taught in the Scriptures and is unecessary in light of what Christ has done for us.

Actually it is taught. I believe in it’s essence as a Protestant, but did not know the name of it until I researched Catholicism.

His death on the cross took care of all our sins

Agreed, you will not get an argument on that from a Catholic.

past, present and future.

You’re dead wrong. Also that belief is not biblical.

Here is what Paul said about the ramifications of the death of Christ for us in Colossians 2:13-14 where he writes:
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Agreed, you will not get an argument on that from a Catholic.

The idea of needing further “purification” in purgatory would mean that what he wrote here is a lie.

Dead wrong again. Christ’s redemptive work on the cross only forgives sins that have been committed. To forigve sins in the present means to have the sin forgiven at the exact moment it was committed. To forgive future sins is to say everyone is born without sin, one is then born in a state of salvation.

Your arrogance is proof enough of a need for a final purification. You are here at this forum because your pride and arrogance have convinced you that we are wrong and have always been wrong. You’re own self-righteious attitude condemns you to hell if a final purfiication does not exist.

With your current state of hate, bigotry, arrogance, and pride, you better hope their is a final state of purification.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

For a person to be fully united to God in heavenly glory every attachment to sin, no matter how minuscule, must be eliminated (Rev. 21: 27). The purification must be perfect, total, and complete. This is, precisely, the Church’s teaching on Purgatory, which is in perfect harmony with Scripture.

There can be no selfish desires in heaven. All desire for self-gain is non-existent in heaven. We must exist totally for God. Not 90% or even 99.9%; we must have complete, total 100% singleness of purpose, 100% devotion to and existence for God. We must love others as Jesus loves us, completely and selflessly. We must be totally selfless servants of others. A love mixed with no self interest.

Yet in our fallen human nature, even after being “saved”, we are still disordered in our selfishness. We remain inordinately preoccupied with our selves. We all succumb, to some degree, to the worldly concept of “looking out for number one.” But we cannot bring this kind of self-centered attitude, in any degree, into heaven. Yet who among us is completely without self-centeredness, pride and ego while on earth" Who among us is “perfect”, completely undefiled by sin, sinful tendencies, thoughts and desires?

Even the Apostles fell victim to their own self-centeredness, pride and ego, at least on occasions. One example is when they were arguing amongst themselves about which of them is the greatest. Jesus, in rebuking them, explains that it is the one who is least that is the “greatest” (Lk. 9: 46-48). Jesus explains to them (and to us) that whoever wishes to be great should become the servant of all, just as He Himself came not to be served but to serve and to give His life for others (Matt. 20: 26-28; Lk. 22: 24-30). What Jesus is telling His Apostles, in ordinary everyday language, is something like this" “Look you lunkheads, don’t you understand!? There can be no jealousies or rivalries in heaven. It’s not about self. It’s about God and others. It’s about total self-less-ness!!”

Could the Apostles bring this “I’m the greatest” attitude and mentality into heaven? No. Can we bring the same or similar self-centered attitudes or desires with us into heaven? Of course not. “All bitterness, fury, anger, shouting, and reviling must be removed from you, along with all malice.” (Eph. 4: 31; see again Rev. 21: 27).

Only the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory harmonizes and makes sense of all of Scripture and all of Christ’s teachings about the afterlife. It is only through the final sanctification of Purgatory that our self-centered, sinful nature is cleansed and purified by Jesus, making us fit for heavenly glory.

It is only through the thoroughly biblical teaching of the Catholic Church on purgatorial sanctification that two seemingly paradoxical and apparently contradictory truths can be harmonized and reconciled with each other into one cohesive and homogeneous whole, namely that we continue sinning (to some degree at least) our entire earthly lives. That’s truth number one. Truth number two is that we do not continue sinning (in any degree) in heaven, not even our thoughts: sinning of earth, no sinning in heaven. The only way to reconcile and harmonize these two truths is that we must undergo a change in our very nature. The fact is that between physical death and eternal heavenly glory must come purification. We must experience our final sanctification through Jesus Christ before entering into heavenly glory because we can’t bring anything unclean in heaven (Rev. 21: 27; Heb. 12:14 & 23; Eph. 4: 31; 1 Cor. 15: 42-43). This final purification, this final sanctification, this final application of Christ’s righteousness is, by definition, Purgatory.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Twins are separated at birth and are put up for adoption.

Twin A gets adopted by a pious Christian family. Twin A accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior and lives a pious life.

Twin B gets adopted by a non Christian family. Twin B lives a sinful life.

70 years pass since birth.

Twin A and Twin B end up in the Hospital on their death bed in the same room. Twin A tells Twin B about Jesus. Twin B accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

1 minute later, Twin A and Twin B die.

Obviously we could say that Twin A goes to heaven. Whether or not Twin A passed thru the state of Purification is not the issue.

Twin B?

From a Protestant viewpoint, They say that both would end up in Heaven at heaven to stand before God at the same time.

I see a problem with this. This belief says I can live a sinful life and continue so as long a I at some point before death repent for my sins and ask for forgiveness provided I don’t get taken out of this life in a untimely manner such as an Automobile accident, Heart Attack, etc, etc, etc.

Twin A has never known Sin. Twin B has known Sin all his life.

The wages of Sin is death. Where does the death part come into play for one that has sinned all his life and by chance happens to get saved just prior to death?

Purification removes this problem. Twin B has a lot of straw, hay, and thistle to be burned away.

Of course there is no way to determine how long this purification takes place. Could be 1 millionth of second or could last until Christ comes back again.

Purgatory just makes sense from the Twin analogy.

Time is no barrier to the purification process.

 

[justasking4]

Peter Da Rock;2517275]Actually it is taught. I believe in it’s essence as a Protestant, but did not know the name of it until I researched Catholicism.

what are you referring to here?

Agreed, you will not get an argument on that from a Catholic.

in my dialogues with catholics i always get an argument that the death of Christ was sufficent to pay for all our sins. Purgatory is a denial of the sufficency of the death of Christ.

You’re dead wrong. Also that belief is not biblical.
Agreed, you will not get an argument on that from a Catholic.
Dead wrong again. Christ’s redemptive work on the cross only forgives sins that have been committed.

If this is the case then why did Paul write in Colossians 2:13 that all our transgressions have been forgiven?

To forigve sins in the present means to have the sin forgiven at the exact moment it was committed. To forgive future sins is to say everyone is born without sin, one is then born in a state of salvation.

Not so. It is the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all unrighteousness. I john 1:8. Also the scriptures teach us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Your arrogance is proof enough of a need for a final purification. You are here at this forum because your pride and arrogance have convinced you that we are wrong and have always been wrong. You’re own self-righteious attitude condemns you to hell if a final purfiication does not exist.

This idea of a final purification is contrary to the scriptures. To be “in Christ” is not to be condemned. Paul makes this clear in Romans 8:1 where he writes–Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
There is not one reference in scriptures where we are to have some further purification process after we die.

With your current state of hate, bigotry, arrogance, and pride, you better hope their is a final state of purification.

I don’t rely on this “final state of purification” but on the finished work of Christ on the cross. It was His dying for my sins that saves me and not this “final state of purification”.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Purgatory is a denial of the sufficency of the death of Christ.

#1. Hi justasking, I am wondering, what is your take on my question in post #1 in this thread?

#2. If Purgatory is denial of the sufficiency of the Crucifixion, is it also a denial when Paul calls for us to repent? After all, if Christ’s death is “sufficient” what good is an act of repentance on our part? Then you’d have Sufficiency = Crucifixion + Repent. No?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Actually it is taught. I believe in it’s essence as a Protestant, but did not know the name of it until I researched Catholicism…

Hi Peter, what denomination of Protestant are you? Or did you mean to say “I believed…as a Protestant” past tense?

Also, just a tip, I enjoyed your posts, but somewhere in the forum rules, they ask us to avoid super-long and/or consecutive posts.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Hi Peter, what denomination of Protestant are you? Or did you mean to say “I believed…as a Protestant” past tense?

Also, just a tip, I enjoyed your posts, but somewhere in the forum rules, they ask us to avoid super-long and/or consecutive posts.

Tiber Swim Team of 98. Ex Congregational Holiness(Holy Roller).

 

[MarcoPolo]

Tiber Swim Team of 98. Ex Congregational Holiness(Holy Roller).

Well welcome! Glad you’re on the forums.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

Well welcome! Glad you’re on the forums.

Thank you. I am also 4th degree KOC.

 

[StMarkEofE]

Thank you. I am also 4th degree KOC.

4th degree,are you more catholic than a 3rd degree? Just asking

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

4th degree,are you more catholic than a 3rd degree? Just asking

You could probably say so in a round about way.

 

[holy_wood]

**Scripture

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness**

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 12:32

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death.

The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48

And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to** 2 Macc. 12:44-45** which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are “made” perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory. Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory.

 

[justasking4]

MarcoPolo;2518212]#1. Hi justasking, I am wondering, what is your take on my question in post #1 in this thread?

I’ve reposted your question here:
I was wondering if someone who does not believe in Purgatory could answer this compound question:

Earthly beings are prone to sin. Heavenly beings are not.

So the question is:
How/when is a sin-prone mortal transformed into a non-sin-prone eternal being?

To answer this question thoroughly would require pages but i will be brief. Paul answer this in Ephesians 2:5-6 when he writes:
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
The words “raised” and seated" indicates that these are immediate and direct result of salvation.

How does that happen?
The scriptures don’t say that i’m aware of. Something does happen in our spirit at the moment of salvation in Christ that does change us in how we think and live. Sometimes it can be very dramatic like Paul in Acts 9 or more subtle over time.

Any answer is welcome…even speculation.

#2. If Purgatory is denial of the sufficiency of the Crucifixion, is it also a denial when Paul calls for us to repent? After all, if Christ’s death is “sufficient” what good is an act of repentance on our part? Then you’d have Sufficiency = Crucifixion + Repent. No?

I]Even though we are saved in Christ and have all our sins forgiven we are still struggling in the flesh with sin. We see this in Romans 7:14-23 where he describes his struggle with sin in his flesh. These sins we do in the flesh must also be confessed (acknowledging and agreeing with God about). This confession does a couple of things:
1- when we do confess we are acknowledging the truth about ourselves i.e. we are not yet perfect.
2- we expierence God’s forgiveness and cleansing. See I John 1:9.

If a Christian were to say that he no longer sins he would be calling God a liar and decieving himself. See I john 1:8, 10. This is part of the “working out our salvation” that Paul speaks of in Philippians 2:12-13.

 

[Contarini]

in my dialogues with catholics i always get an argument that the death of Christ was sufficent to pay for all our sins. Purgatory is a denial of the sufficency of the death of Christ.

You have to prove this–you can’t just assert it. (Well, you can, but what’s the point?)

If this is the case then why did Paul write in Colossians 2:13 that all our transgressions have been forgiven?

If I am heavily in debt and am told, “all your debts have been forgiven,” does that mean that if I go out and borrow a million dollars tomorrow no one will expect me to pay it back? Your interpretation is counter-intuitive.

Not so. It is the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all unrighteousness. I john 1:8. Also the scriptures teach us that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

The traditional Catholic response to this is to say that it was true for Paul but not necessarily for everyone else. One could also argue that it doesn’t exclude a transitional period. However, I don’t find these arguments convincing. I agree that this passage excludes the idea of a period of time spent by a believer after death outside the immediate presence of God. On the contrary, I would say that Purgatory is the presence of God as experienced by someone not yet entirely sanctified. (I’m happy using other metaphors for it–one of my favorites is being locked up in a room with people you don’t like until you learn to love them, and I’ve also speculated that for me Purgatory will be a messy room and I won’t get “out” until I’ve cleaned it up; but I know that these are metaphors.)

The id

ea of a final purification is contrary to the scriptures. To be “in Christ” is not to be condemned.

Purgatory is not condemnation.

There is not one reference in scriptures where we are to have some further purification process after we die.

Leaving 2 Maccabees out of it (!), I think 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 points in that direction. I know that it is vague and can be interpreted in a lot of different ways, which is why I consider purgatory a matter of speculation and not of dogma. But it certainly fits in very well with a theology of purgatory.

I don’t rely on this “final state of purification” but on the finished work of Christ on the cross. It was His dying for my sins that saves me and not this “final state of purification”.

This is a false dichotomy. You might as well say that you never needed to believe in Jesus at all, because it is His dying that saved you and not repentance or faith. By this logic, everyone was saved automatically at the Cross whether they ever believe in Jesus or not.

Never mind that people in Purgatory are by definition “saved,” and in my understanding they are actually in the presence of God.

Edwin