If you don't believe in Purgatory....

[Techno2000]

Right, works without Faith is Dead.We need Purgatory, Because Jesus said we are to be PERFECT as God is PERFECT,and God Judges Man by what he did in his Flesh, in this Life.

Lets assume you are correct. How does purgatory make a person perfect?

Through pain, suffering and prayers, God puts you through this because this will purify one of their earthly flesh desires.
PS: go to Post# 46 click on Links

 

[holy_wood]

What purification are you speaking of? Where do the scriptures speak of some kind of purifcation after death of a person?

Since all our transgressions have been forgiven at the cross, there is no need for any further “purification”.

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15

According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7

In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23

but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,a] hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

• the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19

I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

• Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.(oh what could this be in reference to?)

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

 

[holy_wood]

**Scripture

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness**

---

Matthew 5:26

I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.

---

**Matthew 18:34
**

And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

**Luke 12:58-59
**

When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite."

If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 -

And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory. .

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Originally Posted by justasking4 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif Right, works without Faith is Dead. Well you finally agree with us on something…

We need Purgatory

No, we don’t need purgatory. But this purgation is there for us who need it. I am pretty sure there are a few individuals that have lived and died who did not need any final purification, but those are few and far between. IMHO, those few and far between would have been monks and nuns whom have shut themselves away from the fleshly world with all of it’s temptations, even then this would not comprise all monks and nuns, but only a few and far between within those ranks. *
*

Because Jesus said we are to be PERFECT as God is PERFECT,and God Judges Man by what he did in his Flesh, in this Life.

And it is nearly impossible to be perfect in this world whether it is now or 2000 years ago. We can and should strive for perfection, but it is a one in a billion chance that we may actually achieve that state of perfection while residing on this earth.
Our imperfections in our character keeps us from achieving perfection
Our imperfections in our personality keeps us from achieving perfection.

---

Our imperfections in our daily actions keeps us from achieving perfection.
*Our imperfections in our beliefs keep us from achieving perfection. *

 

[Contarini]

Prove what? That purgatory is a denial of the sufficency of the death of Christ?

Yes.

Your example makes sense and that is why we owe Christ everything. We do owe but we don’t have the means to repay. Someone else (Christ) paid the infinite price for our sins. If He did not do that, we would all be condemned and rightfully so.

That is not the point under debate. If my example makes sense, then your interpretation of Col. 2:13 is incorrect–it doesn’t necessarily refer to sins one has not yet committed.

i agree. However, does purgatory require suffering? Does it have some “cleansing” aspects to it?

This is a matter of speculation, but it is reasonable to suppose that it does involve suffering of some kind, just as we “suffer” when we enter a bright room with eyes accustomed to darkness, or when we pour running water and disinfectant over a cut. Certainly it involves cleansing, since any sinful tendency or desire is a form of pollution.

I Corinthians 3:10-15 on the surface does look like some kind of purgatory but upon closer examination it does not. The context of the passage does not fit.

So you claim–but again provide no argument to that effect.

I’m not saying this at all. The scriptures are clear that a person must truly repent and believe that Christ died for their sins and rose again. This is not done automatically for someone.

I know you’re not saying this. But why not? If the death and resurrection of Christ are sufficient, why the need to repent and believe? If something as soteriologically insignificant as purgatory (i.e., a person in purgatory is already guaranteed salvation and is simply “washing up” as they enter God’s presence) contradicts the sufficiency of Christ’s death, then the necessity of repentance and faith for salvation does so far more.

The problem is that you have so far utterly failed to give any reason why purgatory takes away from the sufficiency of Christ’s death. At face value, your argument appears to be that if Christ’s death is sufficient then nothing more is necessary. But you clearly don’t think that, since you think repentance and faith are necessary. Therefore, you need to come up with a better argument.

If what you are saying is true, then the doctrine of purgatory further errodes the sufficency of the death and resurrection of Christ.

But why? You keep repeating this, but that’s not effective communication. Clearly it’s self-evident to you, but it’s not evident to me or to many other people. If you want to convince us, you will have to do more than simply assert your opinion over and over.

Edwin

 

[JoeyWarren]

Thank you Edwin for responding to his questions…:extrahappy:

Thou art a dangerous debater…

 

[believers]

Contarini:
Yes.

That is not the point under debate. If my example makes sense, then your interpretation of Col. 2:13 is incorrect–it doesn’t necessarily refer to sins one has not yet committed.

This is a matter of speculation, but it is reasonable to suppose that it does involve suffering of some kind, just as we “suffer” when we enter a bright room with eyes accustomed to darkness, or when we pour running water and disinfectant over a cut. Certainly it involves cleansing, since any sinful tendency or desire is a form of pollution.

So you claim–but again provide no argument to that effect.

I know you’re not saying this. But why not? If the death and resurrection of Christ are sufficient, why the need to repent and believe? If something as soteriologically insignificant as purgatory (i.e., a person in purgatory is already guaranteed salvation and is simply “washing up” as they enter God’s presence) contradicts the sufficiency of Christ’s death, then the necessity of repentance and faith for salvation does so far more.

The problem is that you have so far utterly failed to give any reason why purgatory takes away from the sufficiency of Christ’s death. At face value, your argument appears to be that if Christ’s death is sufficient then nothing more is necessary. But you clearly don’t think that, since you think repentance and faith are necessary. Therefore, you need to come up with a better argument.

But why? You keep repeating this, but that’s not effective communication. Clearly it’s self-evident to you, but it’s not evident to me or to many other people. If you want to convince us, you will have to do more than simply assert your opinion over and over.

Edwin

I really don’t blame justasking4 for not answering your “but why?” question. Here’s why… if you believe that sins are categorized… that is “mortal” and “venial” sins, and that sacraments have value in redemption, then you’re not going to understand why Purgatory is completely false, useless, and unbiblical.

The Word of God teaches us that we have been judged to condemnation because of Adam. Spiritual death… not some “stain” as the RCC puts it. In the OT, getting right with God was a works based system but the NT is of Grace THROUGH faith alone. You can’t “wash” this guilty judgment away in water baptism. Your fine must be paid with the blood of a perfect, righteous person (Lamb of God). To have your fine paid, it must be through faith alone without the deeds of the law. With our fine paid, we are no longer in condemnation because we are “in Christ”. His righteousness is now imputed to us as sin was with Adam. Now, can we go on sinning? no. We have to repent (turn away) from our sinful ways. In other words, crucify yourself with Christ and be born again. The sinful person that you used to be no longer lives in you but Christ. We are a new creature with our souls purified by obeying the truth (Word of God) unto works of love.

 

[believers]

Thank you Edwin for responding to his questions…:extrahappy:

Thou art a dangerous debater…

What’s with the cheering? He’s not a Roman Catholic which probably means he doesn’t agree with your beliefs either.

 

[justasking4]

Contarini;2527085]

Yes.

That is not the point under debate. If my example makes sense, then your interpretation of Col. 2:13 is incorrect–it doesn’t necessarily refer to sins one has not yet committed.

Can you show me where it does not?

This is a matter of speculation, but it is reasonable to suppose that it does involve suffering of some kind, just as we “suffer” when we enter a bright room with eyes accustomed to darkness, or when we pour running water and disinfectant over a cut. Certainly it involves cleansing, since any sinful tendency or desire is a form of pollution.

This counts heavily against this doctrine. You have no way to know what is the nature of purgatory i.e. how it works or how long someone is there.

So you claim–but again provide no argument to that effect.

Since you claim it exist, then you must give the reasons for it not me. All you have done so far is speculate and speculations are not arguments.

I know you’re not saying this. But why not? If the death and resurrection of Christ are sufficient, why the need to repent and believe?

Scripure commands it and it is something that a person must think through on his own.

If something as soteriologically insignificant as purgatory (i.e., a person in purgatory is already guaranteed salvation and is simply “washing up” as they enter God’s presence) contradicts the sufficiency of Christ’s death, then the necessity of repentance and faith for salvation does so far more.

How so?

The problem is that you have so far utterly failed to give any reason why purgatory takes away from the sufficiency of Christ’s death.

Look again at Colossians 2:13-14 where it tells us what Christ has accomplished for those who believe in Him for salvation—
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
All of these things are the reuslt of His death and resurrection.

At face value, your argument appears to be that if Christ’s death is sufficient then nothing more is necessary. But you clearly don’t think that, since you think repentance and faith are necessary. Therefore, you need to come up with a better argument.

What is the purpose of confession? What does it have to do with our relationship with God?

But why? You keep repeating this, but that’s not effective communication. Clearly it’s self-evident to you, but it’s not evident to me or to many other people. If you want to convince us, you will have to do more than simply assert your opinion over and over.

Edwin

 

[JoeyWarren]

What’s with the cheering? He’s not a Roman Catholic which probably means he doesn’t agree with your beliefs either.

He is closer to Catholic thinking then yourself. He will at times defend our beliefs because he see some essence of the truth. He will not defend all, but most since his faith is in close proximity.

 

[justasking4]

holy_wood;2525565]II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

What is the context for Hebrews 12:29? It has nothing to do with purgatory.
1 Cor. 3:10-15

Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

Where does Paul use the term sin or evil in regards to the “work”?

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, “but only” (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase “but only” (or “yet so”) in the Greek is “houtos” which means “in the same manner.” This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

Are you saying that fire saves a man? What specifically does this passage will be burned?

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man’s work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works).

Your reading into this passage what is not there. There is no mention of sin.

Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

For your view to work you must show that Paul is referring to sin here. Clearly he is not.

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God’s temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

If you looked at the context of the chapter, Paul is specifically dealing with ministers and how they are to build their ministries on the foundation of Christ and to use the best materials.

1 Peter 1:6-7

Is Peter speaking of a literal fire or figuative?

Jude 1:23

Rev. 3:18-19

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.
Are you saying all these verses are about purgatory?

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.(oh what could this be in reference to?)

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

I’m not familar with these works. They are part of the apocphra and are not considered inspired-inerrant.

 

[MarcoPolo]

if you believe that sins are categorized… that is “mortal” and “venial” sins

If you don’t, then how do you understand 1 John 5:17 “All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.”

Or something like Jesus in John 19:11 saying, “Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

If Christ categorizes sins, shouldn’t we?

And if you have time, I’d like to hear your speculation on the question in post #1 in this thread.

 

[AlegreFe]

What’s with the cheering? He’s not a Roman Catholic which probably means he doesn’t agree with your beliefs either.

C.S. Lewis was not Catholic either but many Catholics like to read many of his writings and we support many of them… or should I say, C.S. Lewis supported many Catholic beliefs. He was more “Catholic” than many Catholics are. Many of us are surprised that he did not actually make that final step into officially becoming a full-fledged Catholic Christian.

 

[jmtowle]

Why then did Christ die on the cross? Pretty straight forward I would say. I think that our faith in Christ (true faith) progresses us toward holiness, this is the whole point. I agree with you partially except where you try to take your salvation into your own hands.

Based on admonitions to be vigilant / prepared, it seems to me that there is an implication that it is possible to be unprepared and if you view our Lord’s dying on the Cross as creating the POSSIBILITY versus the assurity of salvation, then humans would be required to participate in some fashion. Christ did the heavy lifting we need to stay close and allow Him to carry us the rest of the way, or not.

 

[Peter_Da_Rock]

C.S. Lewis was not Catholic either but many Catholics like to read many of his writings and we support many of them… or should I say, C.S. Lewis supported many Catholic beliefs. He was more “Catholic” than many Catholics are. Many of us are surprised that he did not actually make that final step into officially becoming a full-fledged Catholic Christian.

Yessirre -]bob/-] oops Sandy.

Welcome back, you were on a long sabbatical?

 

[MarcoPolo]

What’s with the cheering? He’s not a Roman Catholic which probably means he doesn’t agree with your beliefs either.

I don’t think we should withhold worthy compliments from each other whether they are of our denomination or not.

 

[Techno2000]

For those who seem to think the flesh is the cause of all Evil and once the Flesh is gone we are ready to go to Heaven. I would
like to know how do you explain the Evil in Demons, they had no Flesh, and have no flesh now, so how did they get Evil without Flesh ?

 

[AlegreFe]

Yessirre -]bob/-] oops Sandy.

Welcome back, you were on a long sabbatical?

Thanks for the “welcome back!” :hug1: My family and I moved and I’ve been busy with the new house. My daughter and I have read or should I say ‘heard’ his book, “Screwtape Letters.” I bought the audio book. I tend to get really sleepy when I read. “Mere Christianity” is another good one. We also have “Four Loves” which we’ve started but not yet finished.

Sorry a little off topic… but that’s just me, what can I say.

 

[believers]

If you don’t, then how do you understand 1 John 5:17 “All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.”

Or something like Jesus in John 19:11 saying, “Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

If Christ categorizes sins, shouldn’t we?

And if you have time, I’d like to hear your speculation on the question in post #1 in this thread.

I suppose you can categorize YOUR sins, you have free will to do so. However, the Word of God is clear as to what happened to ALL of mankind when ADAM disobeyed God. God cannot lie and His Word does not contradict.

Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Techno2000]

I suppose you can categorize YOUR sins, you have free will to do so. However, the Word of God is clear as to what happened when ADAM disobeyed God. God cannot lie and His Word does not contradict.

Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Maybe Adam’s sin was a grave one, and not the same as stealing
a French fry from your friends Happy meal.