If you don't believe in Purgatory....

[MarcoPolo]

I was wondering if someone who does not believe in Purgatory could answer this compound question:

Earthly beings are prone to sin. Heavenly beings are not.

So the question is:
***How/when is a sin-prone mortal transformed into a non-sin-prone eternal being? How does that happen? ***

Any answer is welcome…even speculation.

 

[SyCarl]

To be clear from the start, this is speculation on my part.

The Bible makes clear a dichotomy between fleshly things and spiritual things. The spirit is life, the flesh is death. There is the fleshy body and the spiritual body, things of the flesh and spiritual things. Before believing we have a mind set on fleshly things. After believing we have a spirtual mind although our sinful fleshly nature remains. At death our body dies and with it our fleshly nature. Our spirit is left pure since the sinful nature died with the fleshly body. At the Ressurection, our spirit will be united with our spiritual body.

 

[Contarini]

To be clear from the start, this is speculation on my part.

The Bible makes clear a dichotomy between fleshly things and spiritual things. The spirit is life, the flesh is death. There is the fleshy body and the spiritual body, things of the flesh and spiritual things. Before believing we have a mind set on fleshly things. After believing we have a spirtual mind although our sinful fleshly nature remains. At death our body dies and with it our fleshly nature. Our spirit is left pure since the sinful nature died with the fleshly body. At the Ressurection, our spirit will be united with our spiritual body.

That’s Gnosticism, in my opinion. “Flesh” in the Bible does not always mean “physical body.” If your opinion were true, sin isn’t really a big deal–after all, it’s only my body that sins, while my soul (according to you) remains essentially pure.

I urge you to reconsider your entire view of the Christian faith. It is not about saving us from our bodies. It is about saving us, body and soul.

Edwin

 

[MarcoPolo]

To be clear from the start, this is speculation on my part.

Our spirit is left pure since the sinful nature died with the fleshly body. At the Ressurection, our spirit will be united with our spiritual body.

That’s interesting, and I understand you are just speculating. So do you think the spirit 1/2 of us now would not be prone to sin if it could just get rid of the body.

I can see how some of the temptations would be gone if not for the body, like sexual sins…but sins like hate, or having no gods but God, or pride, or others like that. What do you think?

p.s. are you out of the Malachi thread? I thought it was getting better.

 

[MarcoPolo]

It is about saving us, body and soul.

Edwin

Hi Edwin…how would you answer the question?

 

[Contarini]

Hi Edwin…how would you answer the question?

Well, first and foremost “I don’t know–that’s God’s business.” But I think Purgatory (in the sense of some sort of purgation–perhaps instantaneous and probably taking place in God’s presence rather than in some other “place”) is a very reasonable and probable speculation.

I didn’t answer the question because I don’t fall into the category of someone who “doesn’t believe in Purgatory,” though as an Anglican I do not consider it a matter of dogma.

Edwin

 

[myfavoritmartin]

(in the sense of some sort of purgation–perhaps instantaneous and probably taking place in God’s presence rather than in some other “place”)
Edwin

Didn’t this purgation take place already? about 2000 years ago?
This one personally troubles me the most.

 

[Contarini]

Didn’t this purgation take place already? about 2000 years ago?
This one personally troubles me the most.

And this objection on the part of some Protestants is one of the things that troubles me the most. Do you really think you are free from sin?

Don’t you care about actually being free from sin?

Do you really think you will go through all eternity sinful and imperfect, with your sins “covered by the blood”?

This is the point at which justification by faith alone stops being a legitimate Christian opinion and starts being a deadly heresy. If you really think your actual moral and spiritual state doesn’t matter because all that matters is your “standing” before God, then you have accepted a warped version of the Christian faith that runs directly contrary to all of Scripture and to the entire Christian tradition before the Reformation (and most of it, including much of Protestantism, afterwards).

If it isn’t all about becoming holy in the end, what’s the point of any of it? I don’t want to be sinful but forgiven for all eternity. I want to stop being sinful.

Edwin

 

[Stephen_C]

And this objection on the part of some Protestants is one of the things that troubles me the most. Do you really think you are free from sin?

Don’t you care about actually being free from sin?

Do you really think you will go through all eternity sinful and imperfect, with your sins “covered by the blood”?

This is the point at which justification by faith alone stops being a legitimate Christian opinion and starts being a deadly heresy. If you really think your actual moral and spiritual state doesn’t matter because all that matters is your “standing” before God, then you have accepted a warped version of the Christian faith that runs directly contrary to all of Scripture and to the entire Christian tradition before the Reformation (and most of it, including much of Protestantism, afterwards).

If it isn’t all about becoming holy in the end, what’s the point of any of it? I don’t want to be sinful but forgiven for all eternity. I want to stop being sinful.

Edwin

 

[Publisher]

It is the work of Christ to clease us from all sin. When it happens…where it happens…how it happens…really doesn’t concern me too much.

While I do believe I will eventually stand before the Presence in the Fullness of Light, my concern is to seek the Light in this world…and by living in the Light, seek the things that best serves this world…the next world will take care of itself…as the scriptures testify…“I am persuaded that he is able to keep what I have commited to him against that day.”…“That day” is in his hands…not mine…so…I’m in Good Hands.

 

[mozart-250]

I was wondering if someone who does not believe in Purgatory could answer this compound question:

Earthly beings are prone to sin. Heavenly beings are not.

So the question is:
***How/when is a sin-prone mortal transformed into a non-sin-prone eternal being? How does that happen? ***

Any answer is welcome…even speculation.

Two possibilities come to mind. Maybe there are more.

(1) It happens instananeously it death
(2) It happens at the judgement seat of Christ

I have sometimes wondered how different the “Judgement Seat of Christ” is from purgatory when you analyze it. Maybe they are more similar than we realize.

 

[BrandenRush]

I was wondering if someone who does not believe in Purgatory could answer this compound question:

Earthly beings are prone to sin. Heavenly beings are not.

So the question is:
***How/when is a sin-prone mortal transformed into a non-sin-prone eternal being? How does that happen? ***

Any answer is welcome…even speculation.

Uh< i would have to answer that question as being saved according to what scripture says, by grace through faith in Christ.

 

[BrandenRush]

And this objection on the part of some Protestants is one of the things that troubles me the most. Do you really think you are free from sin?

Don’t you care about actually being free from sin?

Do you really think you will go through all eternity sinful and imperfect, with your sins “covered by the blood”?

This is the point at which justification by faith alone stops being a legitimate Christian opinion and starts being a deadly heresy. If you really think your actual moral and spiritual state doesn’t matter because all that matters is your “standing” before God, then you have accepted a warped version of the Christian faith that runs directly contrary to all of Scripture and to the entire Christian tradition before the Reformation (and most of it, including much of Protestantism, afterwards).

If it isn’t all about becoming holy in the end, what’s the point of any of it? I don’t want to be sinful but forgiven for all eternity. I want to stop being sinful.

Edwin

Why then did Christ die on the cross? Pretty straight forward I would say. I think that our faith in Christ (true faith) progresses us toward holiness, this is the whole point. I agree with you partially except where you try to take your salvation into your own hands.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Uh< i would have to answer that question as being saved according to what scripture says, by grace through faith in Christ.

Yes, that is true, but my question asks about how the transformation occurs from mortal to immortal. Do you have a speculation?

 

[MarcoPolo]

I have sometimes wondered how different the “Judgement Seat of Christ” is from purgatory when you analyze it. Maybe they are more similar than we realize.

What do you mean by the “Judgement Seat of Christ”…I’m not sure I’ve heard of that term.

 

[SyCarl]

That’s Gnosticism, in my opinion. “Flesh” in the Bible does not always mean “physical body.” If your opinion were true, sin isn’t really a big deal–after all, it’s only my body that sins, while my soul (according to you) remains essentially pure.

I urge you to reconsider your entire view of the Christian faith. It is not about saving us from our bodies. It is about saving us, body and soul.

Edwin

I do not see how this is Gnosticism although I may have worded my statement poorly. Prior to God’s action we have a sinful nature that cannot truly resist sin. Once we believe we have a new nature, one that allows us to resist sin and want to please God. However we are not made righteous, our soul is not pure. We are still able to sin. We are still tempted by sin. We will not want to sin simply because God does not want us to sin. If we live in sin, if we habitually sin, if we don’t care about sin or don’t repent, then we have not really believed or we have fallen away and will not inherit eternal life…

Ou earthly bodies do die and will be raised as spirtual bodies. All I was really saying was that when our earthly body dies, our remaining sinful capacity dies with it if we have been saved.

 

[MarcoPolo]

It is the work of Christ to clease us from all sin. When it happens…where it happens…how it happens…really doesn’t concern me too much.

So a concept of Purgatory could fit perfectly into your belief, correct? Even if it does not concern you.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I agree with you partially except where you try to take your salvation into your own hands.

Would you clarify what you mean by taking “salvation into your own hands.” Just curious. What role, if any, do we play in our own salvation?

The Catholic position is that Christ is the Way. And it is up to us to take it of our own accord.

 

[Contarini]

I do not see how this is Gnosticism although I may have worded my statement poorly. Prior to God’s action we have a sinful nature that cannot truly resist sin. Once we believe we have a new nature, one that allows us to resist sin and want to please God. However we are not made righteous, our soul is not pure. We are still able to sin. We are still tempted by sin. We will not want to sin simply because God does not want us to sin. If we live in sin, if we habitually sin, if we don’t care about sin or don’t repent, then we have not really believed or we have fallen away and will not inherit eternal life…

Ou earthly bodies do die and will be raised as spirtual bodies. All I was really saying was that when our earthly body dies, our remaining sinful capacity dies with it if we have been saved.

But why? If sin is in our soul as well as our bodies, why would it fall away when our bodies die? I continue to think that this is a superficial understanding of sin as well as of salvation and of the human person in general. I don’t think our bodies and souls are as distinct as this implies.

Edwin

 

[BrandenRush]

Would you clarify what you mean by taking “salvation into your own hands.” Just curious. What role, if any, do we play in our own salvation?

The Catholic position is that Christ is the Way. And it is up to us to take it of our own accord.

I would agree with that in statement but not in the same fashion that the CC believes to be the definition of faith. The faith as described in the catechism is construed as a work of receiving grace from the activity of one in the sacrements. I believe as scripture teaches that faith is between one’s personal relationship with Christ with the support of the church of course but the church not being the saving mechanism. Christ himself being the saving mechanism totally apart from the workings of the church.