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MarcoPolo
Guest
That’s right. And the “done away with” part is Purgatory.
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believers
Guest
It’s impossible to be born-again through sacraments.
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believers
Guest
Sin is sin. There is no such thing as “mortal” and “venial” sins. Unforgiveness, a little white lie, murder, and adultery are in the same category. These all lead to hell. However, there is one sin that leads straight to hell with no chance of forgiveness and that is to blaspheme the Holy Ghost. God will take you from this life without ever having a chance to repent.
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holy_wood
Guest
First off let me say that God’s grace is limited by nothing.
Second what exaclty do you think the sacraments are?
What is so unholy about being baptized, or recieving holy communion, or confirming your faith in Christ, or marriage, or confession?
Done without faith all these works listed above are dead. Just like “faith without works is dead.”
M
Montalban
Guest
When God bestows His grace
C
Contarini
Guest
Well, the only one of these that is venial in the Catholic view is a “white lie” (i.e., a falsehood not intended to harm another person–and since you have added “little” we can further clarify that it is about a trivial matter). Nowhere in Scripture is this specified. Yes, the book of Revelation says that liars will have their part in the lake of fire. But “lie” is not defined. The distinction between serious and less serious sins is never either affirmed or denied clearly and explicitly. There is the reference to “a sin unto death” in 1 John, but I am not entirely convinced of the traditional Catholic exegesis of that passage. I think it’s more likely to refer to the “sin against the Holy Spirit” to which you allude, but I could be wrong. Certainly it isn’t enough to base an argument on.
However, the idea that some sins are incompatible with a living faith in Christ (which is basically what “mortal sin” means) is found in Scripture, in the lists of sins that shut you out of the kingdom which you find in Paul’s epistles. Clearly Paul is going out of his way to underline certain things which are incompatible with saving faith. By implication not every thought or word or deed that is contrary to perfect holiness is incompatible with saving faith.
In Christ,
Edwin
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Well, I’m going to have to move on believers…I still think you are close to understanding it…but after the Scripture I cited for you (among others), I was hoping you could put more thought into it other than just a generic denial of what I posted, and a repeat of what I just refuted.
C
Contarini
Guest
I don’t think the sacramental issue is relevant, although it is clear from Scripture that sacraments have great value for our salvation (I would not say “for redemption,” because I would use the word “redemption” only for Christ’s saving work, not for the application of that work to us, which is where sacraments, faith, etc., come in).
You are making a false dichotomy. Catholics agree that human beings outside of Christ are dead in sin and cannot save themselves. (Catholics, speak up now if you disagree!)
No, it wasn’t. This is one of your basic errors. No one has ever been saved by works, period. That is not a possible way of getting into a relationship with God. God has only ever related to us on the basis of grace. See Romans 4: Abraham was saved by faith and not by works. And less you say that this was only in the pre-Mosaic “dispensation,” see vv. 7-8. Paul quotes from a Psalm, clearly written under the Mosaic law, to prove that we are saved by grace through faith. See also vv. 13-16. Those who are of the law are not “heirs,” period. The law brings wrath, and the promise by grace through faith applies both to those who are under the law and those who are not. This has always been the only way anyone could have a saving relationship with God. You completely misunderstand the Gospel.
Water baptism is not something we do. See Romans 6: baptism is our burial with Christ. (Yes, I know you don’t think that is water baptism, but that is just your attempt to explain away the plain sense of Scripture.)
I quarrel with the specifics of how you express this (nowhere does Scripture say that God exacts a “fine” that could be paid by anyone who met certain moral characteristics; but that probably isn’t relevant to this debate). I certainly agree that only through Christ’s blood can we be redeemed from sin and death.
So something on our part is necessary. Isn’t this just a form of salvation by works? Why exclude baptism and not faith?
So are you saying that no Christian has any sinful thoughts or impulses? Otherwise, what you are saying is uncontroversial but not relevant to the question of Purgatory.
In Christ,
Edwin
C
Contarini
Guest
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Would you consider purgatory a merciful grace? I would have to say yes, and I’d agree with you!
C
Contarini
Guest
I gave you a parallel example, the best one I could think of. Since the question at issue is what this particular passage means, and I see no reason to think it means what you say it does, I am under no obligation to point to another passage where a similar expression doesn’t say what you say it does. Any time in the Bible that a sentence like “your sins are forgiven” is used, it applies to past sins, not future ones. This is a blanket claim–I think it applies to all similar passages. You are the one basing an argument on this form of expression, and you are the one making it say something it wouldn’t say in ordinary speech. So you are the one who has to come up with a clear example or argument. One can’t prove a negative. You could say "it really means that fourteen angels are going to appear on Monday with a large sign in Hebrew saying ‘your sins are forgiven,’ and I probably couldn’t find a passage that said ‘it doesn’t mean that’!
First of all, for me it isn’t a doctrine, it’s a theological opinion. And in the second place, I don’t know how anything in the afterlife works. I only know that God is a consuming fire of love and desires our complete transformation into His likeness. Clearly if that transformation is incomplete at death, it is going to be completed somehow in the moment of death or after death. That’s as far as I have any need to go.
Yes, if they are reasonable. The argument has been laid out in the beginning of the thread, and the best response anyone has made to it is the highly dubious proposition that sin (for believers) resides solely in the physical body and will be sloughed off like a snakeskin at death. You have made the counter-argument that Purgatory contradicts the sufficiency of Christ’s death, and that is what I am challenging. You need to support this argument or else retract it and go back to the general question of whether there is some kind of Purgatory.
So even though logically your principles demand you to believe that repentance and faith contradict the sufficiency of Christ’s death, you believe something logically contradictory because Scripture says so? Wouldn’t it be better to re-examine your idea of what the sufficiency of Christ’s death means? Isn’t is possible that you are misunderstanding the concept? When Scripture seems to lead you to a logical contradiction, you have probably got something wrong somewhere.
Because repentance and faith are things that we do, and they are things that make the decisive difference between salvation or damnation. Purgatory, on the other hand, is something God does to us when our salvation is already secure. It isn’t anywhere near as big a deal, and it’s not an active work on our part–it’s just the “mopping up” operation.
I repeat: how can you show that the necessity of repentance and faith does not contradict your view of the sufficiency of Christ?
Agreed. And what does this have to do with Purgatory?
Confessing our sins is clearly commanded in Scripture–it’s part of repentance, which you have agreed is essential. To repent involves acknowledging what we have done wrong. If we refuse to acknowledge that we have sinned, we are blocking God’s forgiveness from operating in our lives.
In Christ,
Edwin
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believers
Guest
Sacraments are useless. You cannot work for your salvation. YOu see, anyone can sacraments and still end up in hell. Sacraments have nothing to do with Faith. Because you do sacraments, you can now boast of all the things you’ve done or were done to you. In fact, you can write them down on a list and say you’ve done this and you’ve done that. Salvation has nothing to do with what you’ve done but what Christ has done for you.
Would you mind pointing to scripture where sacraments are of ANY value whatsoever.
Christ completed the work of redemption. I am His redeemed. I am saved Christ’s work (GRACE) through faith ALONE… no sacraments involved in my salvation. If you try to include your sacraments, you’re just building your faith on sand with wood, stubble, and hay.
I don’t think I’ve ever disagreed with that. It’s what makes you “in Christ” that matters. You guys use sacraments which don’t work.
Jews had to obey 600+ laws and ordinances… they had to go to the temple and make a blood sacrifice (sin offering) to atone for their sins EVERY year. (THAT is the work I’m referring to) The Gospel of Grace came by Jesus Christ to those who believe. Christ is now our “sin offering”.
What you are not understanding is that THROUGH FAITH we are baptized into His death and we ARE raised WITH Him. We are no longer to live the sinful life we used live. btw… do you see any mention of purgatory here?
Rom 6:1
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
I NEVER said that. What you’re missing is the judgment of Adam’s is imputed to you if you are not justified by faith. Also, you will not be forgiven of your sins that you have committed if you do not turn to Jesus in faith.
Rom 4:7
[Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8
Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Yes, and that is called GRACE. And this Grace can ONLY be accessed through Faith in Jesus alone.
Yes, To believe God and that His Grace is sufficient.
Faith in Jesus in what Jesus has done on the cross is not work. Work is considered doing something that YOU believe has merit. (i.e. water baptism). The reward for merit based works is debt.
Rom 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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believers
Guest
We do. However, we learn from the Word of God…
2Cr 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
True believer’s in Christ cannot believe in such a place. We have been redeemed. Christ’s work is done. We only have to rely on Christ’s FINISHED work for our salvation. We cannot believe in something else to purify our hearts other than faith.
Act 15:9
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
1Pe 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
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believers
Guest
Lying no matter how “small” is unrighteous and therefore a sin. The Word of God says the wages for sin is death. However, if you’re not justified, you have a problem whether YOU sin or not.
B
believers
Guest
Grace is limited by unbelief. For by Grace are you saved THROUGH faith.
Sacraments are works of merit. You see, now you have a list of things YOU’VE done that you believe merit something.
Yes, faith without works is dead. Now, taken in context we understand that those works are of love and not merit. The Word of God says… faith works by love.
Gal 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
C
Contarini
Guest
But since sacraments are not “works” that we do for salvation, there is no connection between the two statements. Baptism is the means we are buried with Christ, as St. Paul says explicitly in Romans 6. The Eucharist is the means by which we share in Christ’s Body and Blood, as St. Paul says in 1 Cor. 10. No meritorious works here!
Certainly.
Am I to understand that you do not practice water baptism or communion? Why would you practice things that have nothing to do with faith? Scripture says that whatever is not of faith is sin.
That makes no sense. That would never enter my head. The sacraments are means by which I receive the free grace of God. I never fully understood how free grace is until I came to believe in sacramental grace. Nonsacramental Christianity is, in my experience, quite “works-oriented” because it’s all about making yourself think or feel the right things. But holding out your hand and receiving a bit of bread–what kind of lunatic would boast about that?
Of course. That’s why sacraments are so important. They are the means of receiving grace that are most obviously NOT our work. Even hearing the Word and believing it can become something we boast of–“I understood what the preacher was talking about”; “I memorized all this Scripture”; even “I don’t believe in salvation by works like you poor deluded souls” (which can itself become a kind of boasting in your own righteousness). But sacraments? They are humbling; they involve no feats of will or intellect; they are obviously something we receive and do not do for ourselves.
C
Contarini
Guest
You are interpreting this passage as speaking only of faith and not of baptism, even though it explicitly says “baptism” and there is no indication that “baptism” means something other than the regular old water baptism we all know about. Your man-made theology demands that you explain away the Word of God. But it’s right there–we are buried with Christ in baptism. (Yes, this grace is received through faith–faith and sacraments do not contradict each other in Scripture, but only in your human tradition.)
I have said throughout this debate that I do not think purgatory is clearly taught in Scripture (though 1 Cor. 3 hints in that direction). That is why I regard it as a matter of theological speculation rather than a doctrine that must be believed.
Yes, you did. You said: Your fine must be paid with the blood of a perfect, righteous person
You then added “Lamb of God” in parentheses, as if this were simply another way of saying “perfect, righteous person.”
How are you defining “merit”? Why do you keep insisting that I think baptism is a meritorious work, even though I say I don’t? You still haven’t answered the question: why is baptism more of a “meritorious work” than faith? If faith isn’t a meritorious work fr you because you don’t believe it has merit, then baptism isn’t a meritorious work for me because I don’t think it has merit. The point is that faith and baptism are two different aspects (one subjective, the other objective) of the same thing: my reception (faith) of God’s gift of salvation (offered in baptism). If anything, “faith” is the more work-like of the two, because it’s my side of the equation. Without faith, as you have pointed out, sacraments are worthless. If you want to start talking about works-based salvation, this would be the place to start–our mutual belief that without something on our side (faith) God’s gift of grace will not do us any good. (Of course, faith is itself a gift of God.)
In Christ,
Edwin
M
Montalban
Guest
How’s punishing someone ‘mercy’? God only seeks we ask for forgiveness (genuinely)
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believers
Guest
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fullofzeal
Guest
the condition of your soul at death determines whether you enter heaven or not, period. Sin, as we know, affects the condition of one’s soul. Jesus starts a church to give us a means by which we can progress towards holiness of life by way of His extraordinary sacrifice. Unless you are sin-less you may want to take another look at this final purgation of sin from your (mine, our(s)) filthy soul. It’s definitely not a bad thing or hard to accept, but for those who think they are already saved by reciting some simple prayer that is nowhere to be found in the gospel. Protesters deny the sacrifice by their sola fide invention…Christ surely would not have worked so hard for us if no hard work was required of us…this is exactly how and why faith without works (love has to be chosen to be love, availing one to the loving “protocol” set forth for salvation) is dead.
peace
peace
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