If you don't know about AA and the 12 steps

[marietta]

A:

If you have so many answers to the burning questions surrounding alcoholism and addiction, why are you here?

If only you were a drunk! Maybe some of us could help you!

marietta

 

[Wirraway]

Personal experience, while I do have some, is not the best way to look at these things. Do you think ‘personal experience’ is the best way to deal with cancer? Or would you run straight to the Oncologist?

to be blunt, you have demonstrated nothing but the shallowest understanding about the nature of addiction and your slagging of AA sounds like petulant whining.

your analogy is false and typically misleading. I don’t have cancer. but I would expect both a cancer patient and an oncologist to have greater insight into the disease than me, and I assure you that the treatment of cancer has developed with the insight and (name removed by moderator)ut of both groups.

 

[Wirraway]

…
Let me guess, you are in the AA congregation and will be completely open to any examination of this faith of yours?

you were making progress and you’ve slipped. your claim that a federal court held AA to be a religion was demonstrated false by a citation to the actual federal court decision. but instead of backing down, you repeat what now must be termed an intentional falsehood.

now you have personal experience with an addiction. see, it is truly impossible to give up the lie.

 

[_A]

My goodness, you are certainly prejudiced against AA, aren’t you?

To be honest, I accepted the doctrines of AA for decades without really thinking about it. I am a little unhappy with myself for taking so long to really start examining it.

You continue to call it a religious organization when it is not.

You say it isn’t, the courts that consider the matter say that it is.

It is a **fellowship **of those staying sober and helping others achieve sobriety. The **only **requirement for membership is “a desire to stop drinking” - nothing about religion there.

Ruthie

Nothing about religion?
What about treating the ramblings of it’s founder is if it were ‘gospel’ and forbidding change over 8 decades? Does that sound more like a cult or like a treatment for illness?

Best to not respond. All that does is keep th thread going. People could get hurt-its like telling someone to forgo chemo for some new untested cancer treatment. The sooner this thread dies the better.

Why are so many so afraid to criticize AA? An improvement in treatment would no doubt improve the lives of people everywhere. Why is AA sacred, while cancer treatment is not? I would be able to criticize any other treatment method, and any other treatment method would be strengthened by such criticisms.

I think the AA congregationalists fear a bright light on their nonsense.

 

[Wirraway]

…

I think the AA congregationalists fear a bright light on their nonsense.

get some help. you’re in denial. this is a classic symptom of an addiction. you are unable to let go of an argument once its been disproved. your claim that AA is a religion has been disproved repeatedly, by reference to your own sources which demonstrates you never even read what you cited.

your idee fixe about AA is a form of addiction. now you understand how addicts will neither admit their problem nor seek help on their own.

 

[marietta]

A writes:

*"Why are so many so afraid to criticize AA? An improvement in treatment would no doubt improve the lives of people everywhere. Why is AA sacred, while cancer treatment is not? I would be able to criticize any other treatment method, and any other treatment method would be strengthened by such criticisms.

I think the AA congregationalists fear a bright light on their nonsense."*

I haven’t read that anyone is afraid to criticize AA, A. I have read that those inside the program, who have posted here on this thread, have found that it has worked for them. Most people are unaware of the nature of AA unless and until they find themselves walking through its doors. And wives/husbands/girlfriends/boyfriends/family members who are at wits’ end with the devastation brought about by active alcoholism will sometimes find relief in Al Anon. This program works, too, if one is willing to drop pre-conceived ideas about the disease itself and devote energy to the goal of wellness of the self.

It is easier to p(name removed by moderator)oint a tumor with radiation therapy than it is to get a drunk to believe that he is dying from a progressive, chronic and fatal disease. And even if a drunk comes to believe he is dying, or even sick, no one can arrest the progression of his disease except him. There is no radiation therapy or chemotherapy or herbal regime that can be used to treat alcoholism. Recovery from alcoholism is an inside job. Not so with cancer. Not so with sports injuries. Not so with heart disease.

If you are disgruntled by the suggested steps and traditions of AA, absolutely no one is demanding that you subscribe to them. If you have been a member of the Fellowship for “decades” and the spiritual (not religious) foundation and support have come to fail you somehow, then I feel that that in itself is worth investigating. No one has “forbidden” change over eight decades of Alcoholics Anonymous. If one wants to change something that works for a significant number of men and women (and even kids), one is free to start up a new meeting at a different location. It used to be that, at least where I lived in Texas, we could not have special interest groups; but after a time, in this progressive little town, we had meetings springing up for Impaired Nurses, musicians, actors, gay and lesbian alcoholics - you name it. What would Bill Wilson say about that? He understood suffering and despair. What need be said?

Anyone on this forum or out in the big world who knows alcoholism from the inside out and who has found, by the grace of a loving God, the power and wisdom and strength of Alcoholics Anonymous, and has managed to remain sober one day at a time by working the steps and traditions and by working with others, fears no bright light. We don’t find the business of sobriety nonsense. The decisions we make daily which could move us into the shadows, hidden from the sunlight of the Spirit, are serious indeed. AA is no cult; people are free to come and go without reprimand or censure. You can’t dig it? There’s the door.

By the way, which courts consider AA to be “a religious organization”? And when did this pronouncement come down from on high? How about a link or a source? I’d love to look into this further.

marietta

 

[Wirraway]

**…

By the way, which courts consider AA to be “a religious organization”? And when did this pronouncement come down from on high? How about a link or a source? I’d love to look into this further.

marietta**

the OP claimed courts had ruled it was a religion. I cited a case that held otherwise and discussed prior decisions.

Inouye v. Kemna (slip opinon, minor corrections before publication) read it read it here. Ninth Circuit, 2007, I don’t have the cite handy, but its easy to find. the OP has no desire to learn, willful ignorance.

 

[marietta]

Inoye, the subject of the link, Inouye v. Kemna, refused to attend AA/NA meetings because he claimed they were religion-based and violated his beliefs.

Inoye claimed he was a Buddhist. The teachings of Buddha state that “life is permeated with suffering caused by desire, that suffering ceases when desire ceases, and that enlightenment obtained through right conduct and wisdom and meditation releases one from desire and suffering and rebirth.” [WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University]

Inoye’s addiction to methamphetamine removed him from the sunlight of the spirit. If he had allowed himself to explore what AA/NA had to offer, and claimed his quest for enlightenment as his higher power, he might have found his path to cessation of suffering and desire. Enlightenment, which was his for the taking if he would have opened his mind to it, could have been obtained through right conduct and wisdom and meditation. He could have found sobriety through the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions if he could have found the willingness to try something new which might have brought him different results.

AA can be like the United Nations. Everyone has to put on their headphones for the translation. Inouye might have found that he belonged in a 12-Step program and that he would not have had to compromise his Buddhist beliefs at all. He simply was arrogantly ignorant of what was being handed to him as a gift.

And drunks and addicts being the way we are, who’s to say he didn’t just holler, “I can’t go to AA - I’m a Buddhist!” just to get out of court-required meetings? We’ve all seen that Special-Case-Itis coming at us more than once. Matter of fact, I cooked up a few choice excuses myself in my day when I didn’t want to do something.

So, A: what are the alternatives? How many of your alternatives have been available for over 75 years to the alcoholic who still suffers? And what are their success rates? Is this all just academic to you, or are you really searching for something?

marietta

 

[_A]

A:

If you have so many answers to the burning questions surrounding alcoholism and addiction, why are you here?

If only you were a drunk! Maybe some of us could help you!

marietta

I am trying to reasonably investigate the religious group ‘AA’

I assure you that the treatment of cancer has developed with the insight and (name removed by moderator)ut of both groups.

Well that is one of the problems I raised about AA. They do not and can not develop with any insight.

Why is their disinterest in their efficacy acceptable?

you were making progress and you’ve slipped. your claim that a federal court held AA to be a religion was demonstrated false by a citation to the actual federal court decision. but instead of backing down, you repeat what now must be termed an intentional falsehood.

now you have personal experience with an addiction. see, it is truly impossible to give up the lie.

The appelate court held that it was unconstitutional to sentence someone to AA because of it’s religiousity.

And please don’t accuse me of lying. I don’t want to have to ask you to report yourself.

 

[blessedtoo]

I am trying to reasonably investigate the religious group ‘AA’

Well that is one of the problems I raised about AA. They do not and can not develop with any insight.

Why is their disinterest in their efficacy acceptable?

The appelate court held that it was unconstitutional to sentence someone to AA because of it’s religiousity.

And please don’t accuse me of lying. I don’t want to have to ask you to report yourself.

So your axe to grind is not against AA, but against religion? What subterfuge!

Start another thread about your real issues. It will get lost among all the others who argue that God, as an answer to our ills, is an illusion.

 

[Wirraway]

I am trying to reasonably investigate the religious group ‘AA’…

A is an addict. he is addicted to the belief that AA is a religious group, which he claims is so because of a federal court ruling. in fact, the federal court did not say this, as has been pointed out to him numerous times. but A refuses to admit he’s made a mistake, much the same way an addict refuses to admit he’s got a problem.

willful ignorance. invincible ignorance. punching bag.

 

[marietta]

THe possibility does exist that A is having us all write a term paper or thesis for him/her. We’ve seen that type of behavior on this forum before.

AA is not a corporate empire with a bottom line. Of course, the individuals who make up the Fellowship are certainly interested in its “efficacy”, but AA owes no quarterly statement to anyone with regard to “how it works” or “how well it works”. It works as well as each individual alcoholic is willing to make it work. It is not seeking grants or private sponsorship to grow roots within any given community; it has been with us since 1935, with doors wide open, asking neither dues nor fees.

Just as every cancer patient will not recover even with the best of treatment, not every alcoholic will recover given every single treatment option, including AA. Just as there is a spiritual component present in the treatment of cancer, so, too, is there a spiritual component present in the treatment of alcoholism, successful or not. This does not mean that AA is a religious organization. Agnostics and atheists populate the number of successful recovering alcoholics who have sought respite through Alcoholics Anonymous. “A power greater than ourselves” means 100 different things to 100 different people. Any human being who believes he is at the top of the spiritual food chain is woefully misinformed.

A would do well to read as well as write.

marietta

 

[Michael_David]

A, most courts sentence one to ‘treatment’, not AA. And AA is the ‘form’ used in most ‘treatments’. Hence the Program.

I look at the idea of a ‘more modern’ system-program as against the Catholic Church with roots in the Jewish beliefs that go back some 8000 years, while the Catholic goes back 2000 years… is A saying he would prefer a New Age Religion?

And in the Gospels, I think it was brought up by the Apostles about seeing others doing what they were, healing the sick, casting out demons, and brought it to Christ’s attention. Who answered to the effect, if they are not against us, they are for us. Meaning there is no monopoly.

Also with the Buddhist… they use their deceased kin to pray to, in asking for help. And so to, this becomes touched with the Spiritual.

A, look at all the steps, as they are ‘interwoven’ in ‘living sober’ and hence, Sane (rational). A main element for AA success is personal Honesty (knowing oneself)… and that means a Right-Sized Ego (or ego deflations for most alcoholics). Once becoming Human, there is a natural awareness that ‘There is a God… and it’s not me’. Step 3, Step 11.

Then comes Charity… Step 12.

Finally, addiction is like a cucumber turning into a pickle… can it ever go back to being a cucumber again?

 

[_A]

A, most courts sentence one to ‘treatment’, not AA. And AA is the ‘form’ used in most ‘treatments’. Hence the Program.

I look at the idea of a ‘more modern’ system-program as against the Catholic Church with roots in the Jewish beliefs that go back some 8000 years, while the Catholic goes back 2000 years… is A saying he would prefer a New Age Religion?

And in the Gospels, I think it was brought up by the Apostles about seeing others doing what they were, healing the sick, casting out demons, and brought it to Christ’s attention. Who answered to the effect, if they are not against us, they are for us. Meaning there is no monopoly.

Also with the Buddhist… they use their deceased kin to pray to, in asking for help. And so to, this becomes touched with the Spiritual.

A, look at all the steps, as they are ‘interwoven’ in ‘living sober’ and hence, Sane (rational). A main element for AA success is personal Honesty (knowing oneself)… and that means a Right-Sized Ego (or ego deflations for most alcoholics). Once becoming Human, there is a natural awareness that ‘There is a God… and it’s not me’. Step 3, Step 11.

Then comes Charity… Step 12.

Finally, addiction is like a cucumber turning into a pickle… can it ever go back to being a cucumber again?

 

[_A]

So your axe to grind is not against AA, but against religion? What subterfuge!

Start another thread about your real issues. It will get lost among all the others who argue that God, as an answer to our ills, is an illusion.

Why is everyone so unwilling to examine this?
It was written in the 30’s, isn’t it possible that something useful has been learned since?

A is an addict. he is addicted to the belief that AA is a religious group, which he claims is so because of a federal court ruling. in fact, the federal court did not say this, as has been pointed out to him numerous times. but A refuses to admit he’s made a mistake, much the same way an addict refuses to admit he’s got a problem.

willful ignorance. invincible ignorance. punching bag.

Wirraway is a liar. The courts ruled it unconstitutional to sentence a US citizen to participation in a religious group.
Willful ignorance indeed.

THe possibility does exist that A is having us all write a term paper or thesis for him/her. We’ve seen that type of behavior on this forum before.

AA is not a corporate empire with a bottom line. Of course, the individuals who make up the Fellowship are certainly interested in its “efficacy”, but AA owes no quarterly statement to anyone with regard to “how it works” or “how well it works”. It works as well as each individual alcoholic is willing to make it work. It is not seeking grants or private sponsorship to grow roots within any given community; it has been with us since 1935, with doors wide open, asking neither dues nor fees.

Just as every cancer patient will not recover even with the best of treatment, not every alcoholic will recover given every single treatment option, including AA. Just as there is a spiritual component present in the treatment of cancer, so, too, is there a spiritual component present in the treatment of alcoholism, successful or not. This does not mean that AA is a religious organization. Agnostics and atheists populate the number of successful recovering alcoholics who have sought respite through Alcoholics Anonymous. “A power greater than ourselves” means 100 different things to 100 different people. Any human being who believes he is at the top of the spiritual food chain is woefully misinformed.

A would do well to read as well as write.

marietta

So then do you believe that these people are truly powerless? If so, why expect anything other than alcoholic binges from them?
If their ‘Higher Power’ is really higher and powerful, why is alcohol so much MORE powerful?

 

[Michael_David]

A Quote: “So then do you believe that these people are truly powerless? If so, why expect anything other than alcoholic binges from them?
If their ‘Higher Power’ is really higher and powerful, why is alcohol so much MORE powerful?”

This comes down to Step 3. You also have to remember the God given Free-Will. Alcohol is ‘powerful’ (in the absence of a Higher Power… then it). In the light of a Higher Power (God), it is ‘nothing’!

On the way down into the quicksand, you still have to be able to grab the rope tossed to you, and hold on while being pulled out. And on the way down into the addiction, one knows (deep down) that their mind and soul are at odds with each other. This raises the ego to new heights to compensate. And facing the ‘reality’ of the situation brings back that ‘one-thread’ of Hope through the soul to get out of that mess.

Even Christ will forgive your sins… IF you ask!!! One has to have the WILL to ASK… or they will drink themselves to death (as is on the bottom of your post). There is cause and effect; action and consequence. And most addicted know this well.

An addiction is no more then single-mindedness (to the extreme). Some scientists are so single-minded in their work (concentrating to the full), that they become absent-minded to other things. And to succeed in business that same single-mindedness, perhaps to the point of being a ‘workaholic’, having no life outside of work to speak of. For any overage in one area, there is an underage in others. Does it cause a problem? In most cases, it’s a personal answer… how much do you value family? Social life or Leisure (without an objective involved)? Or in the case of the alcoholic, doing illegal things for or while under the influence. These interested more in ‘oneself’ then in others… till the balance turns against oneself in the other aspects of life. Most Morals and Ethics are left in the ditch on the road of this single-minded journey.

You will also find that a vast majority of those in 12 step programs are on the Fringe. They have known Religion before wandering away from it. Without these fringe groups, throwing the rope to those in the quicksand, how would any find there way back into God’s good graces? The Church too, has let them leave, now it is up to the ‘Prodigals’ to find their way back after ‘coming to their senses’. There are a number that get back into the Church after a time in AA, as the two compliment each other. The one is not organized, it’s more loose in it’s form (meetings and a program to do as well as you can, looking only for progress, not perfection)… the other is organized with rites and rituals, stress Christ’s dead for out sins, and the ability to be Christ-Like.
Like a baby has to drink milk before solid food, those on the fringe need the milk first, and with growth can get into the meat and potato’s of it all. It’s easy to choke on all the holier-then-thou pomp and pageantry when one is just a seedling. Easy Does It!

 

[Wirraway]

Wirraway is a liar. The courts ruled it unconstitutional to sentence a US citizen to participation in a religious group.
Willful ignorance indeed.

don’t misrepresent me to save yourself. you said the courts found AA to be a religion. I’ve shown that that cases didn’t say that.

so the first time you might have been mistaken (but I doubt).

the second time, you are willfully ignorant.

 

[Seeker_Of_Truth]

So then do you believe that these people are truly powerless? If so, why expect anything other than alcoholic binges from them? If their ‘Higher Power’ is really higher and powerful, why is alcohol so much MORE powerful?

Because, paradoxically, they surrender to it. More specifically, they surrender it to their Higher Power. In our weakness, we are made strong.

An example I’d like to use is that of tag wrestling (and I’m not even a wrestling fan!). You got one of the wrestlers pinned down on the floor, completely unable to get out of that situation. If he struggles against it using his own abilities, he will never get out - the other has him pinned down that well! However, if he admits that its out of his hands, he can slap the ground twice and his partner will come and get the wrestler off his back. To get to that point, however, he has to surrender, and turn to his ‘Higher Power.’

So with God. He is knocking, trying to get into our lives. And he is knocking on a door that is only on the inside of ourselves. Only we can turn the knob and open it. He is not the bad wolf trying to get it. He is our Saviour telling us to “come and see.” The rest is up to us.

This is sort of turning into a “if there is God, why is there suffering?” thread. If this is the real reason behind this thread, I suggest another thread is created to talk about this more specifically.

And about its efficiency? Keep coming back: It works if you work it, it won’t if you don’t. So it’s up to the addict. Do those in AA groups care about other addicts recovering? Absolutely yes. Can they force them? Absolutely no. Do they disclose what percentage does on a quarterly basis? That’s not their job.

The same thing could be said about the Catholic Church. Do all Catholic who go to Mass become more Christ like as time passes? Unfortunately no. Some may just go out of custom, or to get “parents off their back,” or many other reasons. But thankfully some do! The teachings and the Sacraments are there for the individual to turn to. All they have to do is to keep going to the well to get better, even if there are failures here and there. Like with cancer, one treatment is not enough. It’s a life time process. However, will they Church force those who simply go through the motions to truly open themselves up to God’s grace? No, because they can’t. The knob is still on the inside. Will they disclose quarterly what percentage does and doesn’t? To my understanding, that’s not their job.

Peace, A!

Seeker

 

[blessedtoo]

Why is everyone so unwilling to examine this?
It was written in the 30’s, isn’t it possible that something useful has been learned since?

Actually, I am not unwilling to look at AA critically. Guess you didn’t read my first response to your OP. Or maybe that response doesn’t work for your agenda.

What is this “useful thing” that has been learned, according to you? That God is not necessary in recovery from addiction? That a program which has saved millions over the course of decades should be scrapped because it’s mentions a “higher power”?

I have often wondered why the Catholic Church (with their love of wine) haven’t developed their own system for helping people through this. Something which matches Catholic doctrine and customs. It might work much better for Catholics, and then you would not have people inventing god as they wish for step 3.

There is a brilliant Catholic recovery program which is beginning to gain attention in this country:
hopereborn.org/

There is plenty of evidence of alternatives to AA. Try Rational Recovery, or SOS, or look up Stanton Peele.

I looked up Stanton Peele and his treatment contains a spiritual component also. The difference appears to be that one might need to have a bit of cash to avail oneself of his “personal” one on one therapy.

I don’t see any issue with RR except for the idea that one is completely self-reliant when recovering from alcohol. I don’t know what SOS is so I can’t speak to that but if it, like the others, emphasizes the do-it-yourself approach, I might question the efficacy there.

AA, in it’s preamble and traditions, clearly idetifies itself as a “fellowship”. This means it offers more than just personal therapy or insight into each individual alcoholic’s mind. It is the same concept behind support groups that offer comfort and feedback to folks with depression, mental illness, and even cancer. People have the ability to manage their personal trials better when they know others are struggling along with them. You simply can’t achieve this with one on one therapy OR with self-reliance.

Let’s not forget that it costs NOTHING to belong to AA. There are probably many other resources available (there is a treatment center here in Seattle that specializes in aversion therapy) but often, the severe addict, has exhausted all financial means.

AA is not for everyone. Even most ex-drunks will admit this. And it is possible to stop drinking without a 12 step program. AA offers something BEYOND just quitting the drink. It offers a recovery from the intense spiritual and psychological damage caused by drug and alcohol abuse.

 

[jmcrae]

Guess that counts me out…AA saved my husband’s life.

Me, too - AA saved my father’s life.