If you don't know about AA and the 12 steps

[Ruthie]

I wonder if A ran into one of the radical book-thumpers, as I call them. There’s nothing wrong with being a book-thumper, but there are a few people who think that their way is the only real way. In spite of all the evidence to the contrary sitting around them at meetings. We had one like that who single-handedly closed down our effort to start an AA club. (He sat there all day, spouting off, and eventually nobody came any more, because they wanted to avoid him.)

They are to 12-step programs as Jack Chick is to real Christianity.

Ruthie

 

[Michael_David]

There seems to be only one way to Really Know something, not just (mis)Understand it, and that is to Become it. Whether by intent or misfortune. Since Understanding deals in reason (or the rational), and or logic, and Life deals with living, which is sometimes derived from intuition, love, self-sacrifice and the irrational.

Would I ask a 15 year old girl (who never had a baby yet) what child birth feels like? Or even ask a man what it feels like? From the mothers perspective is one thing and from the fathers another… and neither can ‘comprehend’ the other… altho, now there is a 3rd person that draws interest of both.

Nor can AA be known only from looking at it from a safe distance. One can study all they want, but really, who does the addict really trust, and also, really know? That is why a ‘support group’ is so important for any type of calamity, suffering or joyful celebration. It seems that the ‘birds of a feather’ is more true then it is not. Workers unite; cops know what the other cop is going thru; soldiers know other soldiers hang-ups; Priests meet together to discuss the common situations and causes; relatives of alcoholics meet in Al-Alon to discuss their common situations and problems; CEO’s have meetings to discuss the business; Churches are now having more and more meeting to discuss different elements of the ministry. And in all of these meetings there is a ‘commonality’ that prevails. Why should AA be so mis-understood? It is the common-reality that has brought them together.

And did not even God send Christ down in our form, so HE can relate to us on Our terms, as HE was one of us. Again, the common-reality between us and God. Humans relate to one like themselves, and the Good Lord knew it. After all, HE made us!

 

[_A]

A Quote: “So then do you believe that these people are truly powerless? If so, why expect anything other than alcoholic binges from them?
If their ‘Higher Power’ is really higher and powerful, why is alcohol so much MORE powerful?”

This comes down to Step 3. You also have to remember the God given Free-Will. Alcohol is ‘powerful’ (in the absence of a Higher Power… then it). In the light of a Higher Power (God), it is ‘nothing’!

You keep thinking this deluded nonsense, and alcohol manufacturers will keep getting rich because that chemical combination is demonstratably more powerful than ANY god. (at least any of the current invented monstrousities - Yahweh, Jehova, Christ [who are really all the same guy], Allah or G-D)
Pay attention to reality and you will see this. Stay in AA meetings, and all you will see will be tainted by your selection bias.

On the way down into the quicksand, you still have to be able to grab the rope tossed to you, and hold on while being pulled out. And on the way down into the addiction, one knows (deep down) that their mind and soul are at odds with each other. This raises the ego to new heights to compensate. And facing the ‘reality’ of the situation brings back that ‘one-thread’ of Hope through the soul to get out of that mess.

If the person is truly powerless, as that dirty, lying first step suggests, then they will not be able to grab the offered rope.

 

[_A]

…snip…CEO’s have meetings to discuss the business; Churches are now having more and more meeting to discuss different elements of the ministry. And in all of these meetings there is a ‘commonality’ that prevails. Why should AA be so mis-understood? It is the common-reality that has brought them together.

I think group support can be helpful, it is the powerless claim (I haven’t gotten past the first step with you all) that I take issue with. Do we tell any other group that they are powerless, then tell them to exert power?
No-one is powerless (except your imaginary god )

And did not even God send Christ down in our form,

No, he actually is reputed to have come himself, but under an assumed name.

. so HE can relate to us on Our terms, as HE was one of us. Again, the common-reality between us and God. Humans relate to one like themselves, and the Good Lord knew it. After all, HE made us!

See, yf you believe in the religious nonsense, a lot of AA comes easy (like begging an imaginary figure for help). I was hoping to find some who considered it reasonably, not just through the lens of their faith. I would thank the contributor earlier, though, who put me onto that link about a Catholic service. One of my clients (a Catholic) has expressed a lot of distrust of AA, mainly because of being able to create god to be anything you want.
He said it was blasphemous. I think blasphemy is a victimless crime, but will pass the info along to him anyway, and I am sure that he will appreciate it (whether it will work or not is another thing).

 

[geezerbob]

To hopefully clear up a little of the history of AA, and I’m going on memory here, Bill Wilson’s first edition of the book, Alcoholics Anonymous, or at least a working copy of the draft, was Christian, indeed, and showed a heavy Catholic influence although Wilson was not Catholic. He soon realized that it would have no appeal to those of other faiths and he edited it to change references to God to Higher Power, in the hopes that it would be of some benefit to Muslims, atheists, and anyone else who had a problem with alcohol. The term “Higher Power” was deliberately vague so that Christians could think of their higher power as Jesus or God, others could think of whatever deity their religion recognized, and atheists could use the power of the group since they did not recognize a god.

In my considered opinion, AA has done itself a slight disservice by holding Wilson’s words in such esteem that they have refused to even correct grammatical errors in later editions of the book. I feel than an even greater disservice was done by Wilson and/or his successors by their one size fits all approach. The “Big Book” could have been easily enough revised into separate editions, one for Christians, one for those of other faiths, and one for atheists. As written, it is subject to misinterpretation much like the Bible, and I have seen AA members, supposedly Christian ones at that, object vehemently when God or Jesus was mentioned in a meeting. Wilson’s intent was never to banish God from the meetings if the group had the same or similar beliefs, but that’s how it’s put into practice by some who put him on almost the same level as God.

A, I noticed that you earlier called another poster a liar. If you’ve read the rules, you know that name calling is not allowed here and also know that all religions are to be referred to respectfully, not ridiculed. If you haven’t, I suggest you do so and adjust your posting style before you find yourself unable to post.

 

[marietta]

A:

If I may, do you drink? To excess? Has it become problematic in your life?

If you eschew the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions, which treatment program(s) do you find superior, and why?

marietta

 

[_A]

To hopefully clear up a little of the history of AA, and I’m going on memory here, Bill Wilson’s first edition of the book, Alcoholics Anonymous, or at least a working copy of the draft, was Christian, indeed, and showed a heavy Catholic influence although Wilson was not Catholic. He soon realized that it would have no appeal to those of other faiths and he edited it to change references to God to Higher Power, in the hopes that it would be of some benefit to Muslims, atheists, and anyone else who had a problem with alcohol. The term “Higher Power” was deliberately vague so that Christians could think of their higher power as Jesus or God, others could think of whatever deity their religion recognized, and atheists could use the power of the group since they did not recognize a god.

In my considered opinion, AA has done itself a slight disservice by holding Wilson’s words in such esteem that they have refused to even correct grammatical errors in later editions of the book. I feel than an even greater disservice was done by Wilson and/or his successors by their one size fits all approach. The “Big Book” could have been easily enough revised into separate editions, one for Christians, one for those of other faiths, and one for atheists. As written, it is subject to misinterpretation much like the Bible, and I have seen AA members, supposedly Christian ones at that, object vehemently when God or Jesus was mentioned in a meeting. Wilson’s intent was never to banish God from the meetings if the group had the same or similar beliefs, but that’s how it’s put into practice by some who put him on almost the same level as God.

A, I noticed that you earlier called another poster a liar. If you’ve read the rules, you know that name calling is not allowed here and also know that all religions are to be referred to respectfully, not ridiculed. If you haven’t, I suggest you do so and adjust your posting style before you find yourself unable to post.

I did call her a liar because what she said about me was false and she must know it. It was not so much namecalling as a statement of fact.

I thank you for your caution, but if I cannot speak plainly about this subject, then it isn’t worth talking about. I have no respect for any religion. If any deserved it they would have to earn it in any case.
I do have respect for honesty, and I see little of it around the subject of AA. Thank you for weighing in with that bit about Bill W’s word being inerrant (or whatever the reason is that they wont edit those bits).
As an atheist, it is tough enough dealing with so many believers without another group who swears they are NOT a religious based group - swears to their god.

A:

If I may,

Yes, please do.

do you drink?

Yes.(I suspect you mean alcohol)

To excess?

Occasionally, but as I get older, I find this happens less and less. More often I drink about a dozen beers with a couple of friends who come in from out of town.

Has it become problematic in your life?

Not in a long time, and even when it did, it was not the desire for it that did cause problems.
I once, as a young man, found that I had to save for 2 paycheques to get a quart of cheap vodka to drink with my friends. I suspected that this kind of ‘economizing’ was a harbringer of trouble, so I tried something unconventional, but effective (for me - there and then). I switched my liquor of choice to a cognac which cost more than triple the price.
I hardly ever thought it was worth going out drinking. (if I had loads of cash at that time, this obviously would not have worked)

If you eschew the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions, which treatment program(s) do you find superior, and why?

I do eschew the 12 steps, mainly because they have so many falsehoods in them. Everyone here will have to agree that they see alcoholics occasionally exercising power over alcohol - even if it is a frighteningly small amount of power (such as hiding the bottle as the cops go by, instead of taking another sip)
This is not a small thing, either. How will someone exert power over alcohol if they continually repeat that they are powerless over it?

 

[Wirraway]

the OP is fixated on AA. addicted, one might opine.

at least he’s conceded that AA isn’t a religion.

 

[anon52328184]

i have been involved in a couple of 12 step programs and while they might help some people, i didn’t like them. i found them depressing and i felt they made you feel really victimized by admitting you were powerless over something. i went and attended and participated, but i never left there feeling uplifted or that i had made a big breakthrough. i didn’t really feel like bonding with some of them. i would just as soon go sit in the adoration chapel for an hour as to participate in the 12 step programs i was a part of.

for those people whose lives have been saved by the 12 step programs and i know personally many who have been saved, congratulations.

but i don’t think the 12 step program is for everybody.

this is just my opinion and i am sure there are many who will disagree.

 

[blessedtoo]

I think group support can be helpful, it is the powerless claim (I haven’t gotten past the first step with you all) that I take issue with. Do we tell any other group that they are powerless, then tell them to exert power?
No-one is powerless (except your imaginary god )
No, he actually is reputed to have come himself, but under an assumed name.See, yf you believe in the religious nonsense, a lot of AA comes easy (like begging an imaginary figure for help). I was hoping to find some who considered it reasonably, not just through the lens of their faith. I would thank the contributor earlier, though, who put me onto that link about a Catholic service. One of my clients (a Catholic) has expressed a lot of distrust of AA, mainly because of being able to create god to be anything you want.
He said it was blasphemous. I think blasphemy is a victimless crime, but will pass the info along to him anyway, and I am sure that he will appreciate it (whether it will work or not is another thing).

You know, I would have enjoyed this discussion if you didn’t take every opportunity to slam religion and in particular, any belief in God. I would have liked to examine the idea of powerlessness more closely with you and others if it wasn’t so glaringly obvious that your problem is not with the idea of powerlessness and surrender so much as it is with the idea that God is all-powerful.

You, my friend, are the deceiver here. You are not interested in an honest, academic debate on the positive and negative influence of AA. You simply want to demean those who believe that God can heal an addiction.

In the interest of others who read this thread, I want to point out that AA may not work for everyone the first time, the second, or even the third. Just like with smoking, it may take a few attempts before the quit sticks (for me, it took four tries). The program does not simply arrest the urges (which many alcoholics believe is impossible). It teaches the addict how to co-exist with their “cross”, so to speak.

The assertion by the OP that addicts can control their drinking when they want is a strawman. Even a smoker can travel on a plane for 24 hours without lighting up - that doesn’t make them an ex-smoker. It is well documented that addicts can ABSTAIN for periods of time but that does not indicate recovery - it is was they call being “dry”. Abstaining does not offer the quality of life and spiritual growth that is possible through recovery. Abstaining is nothing more that denying oneself. Recover is exactly that - a healing.

If the OP is a counselor, I feel great sympathy for his clients. I wonder how they would feel if they knew that he held believers in such contempt.

To the OP: why don’t you start a thread addressing your real gripe and leave the drunks alone?

 

[anon52328184]

ouch!!!

 

[blessedtoo]

i have been involved in a couple of 12 step programs and while they might help some people, i didn’t like them. i found them depressing and i felt they made you feel really victimized by admitting you were powerless over something. i went and attended and participated, but i never left there feeling uplifted or that i had made a big breakthrough. i didn’t really feel like bonding with some of them. i would just as soon go sit in the adoration chapel for an hour as to participate in the 12 step programs i was a part of.

for those people whose lives have been saved by the 12 step programs and i know personally many who have been saved, congratulations.

but i don’t think the 12 step program is for everybody.

this is just my opinion and i am sure there are many who will disagree.

This was my experience as well.

I started in AA in 1986. At the time, it was a a life saver, as it managed to keep me from picking up a drink (pretty hard to do when you are attending 2 meetings a day!). By the time of my third relapse in 2000, it was clear that I needed something more. In my case, as it seems in yours, Divine intervention was what saved me (and continues to this day).

Some folks, like myself, are introverted and socially awkward. I used to drink and drug just to survive group interactions. While AA may be helpful for people who wish to overcome social phobia or anxiety, I found one-on-one therapy more beneficial. That, coupled with prayer, is what has sustained me for these many years.

God bless!

 

[anon52328184]

congratulations. i am glad you found the help you needed and your prayer life has helped you.

yes, some people really thrive in groups, but i also found that one on one therapy to be more beneficial to me.

even though we would say a christian prayer at some of our meetings,
it pretty much left it up to you how you wanted to perceive that God.

i just couldn’t warm up to the 12 step program and i felt like it added a lot of baggage on me that i didn’t need to be carrying at the time.

 

[_A]

If the OP is a counselor, I feel great sympathy for his clients. I wonder how they would feel if they knew that he held believers in such contempt.

I am but not for chemical dependency. I would refer such a person to a medical doctor, and suggest that they follow her advice.

To the OP: why don’t you start a thread addressing your real gripe and leave the drunks alone?

I did, if you would like to contribute, then have a look. If you can’t discuss AA without the religious elements, then perhaps it is indeed a religious organization.

 

[_A]

i have been involved in a couple of 12 step programs and while they might help some people, i didn’t like them. i found them depressing and i felt they made you feel really victimized by admitting you were powerless over something. i went and attended and participated, but i never left there feeling uplifted or that i had made a big breakthrough. i didn’t really feel like bonding with some of them. i would just as soon go sit in the adoration chapel for an hour as to participate in the 12 step programs i was a part of.

for those people whose lives have been saved by the 12 step programs and i know personally many who have been saved, congratulations.

but i don’t think the 12 step program is for everybody.

this is just my opinion and i am sure there are many who will disagree.

Thanks for your contribution, and for showing that there is more than one way to overcome these problems.

 

[marietta]

If you can’t discuss AA without the religious elements, then perhaps it is indeed a religious organization.

You cannot set us up to discuss AA in religious or spiritual terms and then berate us for doing so. That is what I call alcoholic behavior.

marietta

 

[Michael_David]

So A, it’s about Power, or the ‘absence’ of it… and with what.

If a burglar breaks into your house, what will you do? Confront him; hide in the bedroom closet; call the police. At that moment, who is powerless? And with the phone call (there is not power, just reaction). But when the police arrive and arrest the burglar, then you feel better and can continue on with your life. But, did you not give the Police the problem of the burglar? As you did not want to, or could not, handle him. In this case, the police would be the Higher Power, and the burglar would be alcohol.

Is it so hard to understand? Have you not been powerless in your life in any other ways, that you cannot relate to it? Have you never been scared (to death) in any situations?

One only has to separate the ‘reaction’ with the ‘turning over’ to understand how one can be powerless over alcohol (drugs).

 

[Seeker_Of_Truth]

In trying to explore more the idea of powerlessness, I have provided some examples of my own, which have been left untouched. I thought that that was one of the points (at least the first main one) about this thread, but then I’ve been told of my ‘imaginary god’ and other such things, and am coming to realize that I’ve been mistaken as to the purpose of this thread. A, it appears to me that you don’t want to talk about the steps necessarily, but about the “silly” idea of an all-powerful God. I may be mistaken, and if I am I apologize. I’m merely coming to this conclusion based on what you have been presenting recently.

How do you expect us to have a serious conversation with you if you are taking this as an opportunity to make fun of our beliefs?

To those reading, please know that the 12 steps do work. As some have pointed, it’s not the approach everyone wishes to take, and others have recovered without attending the meetings. But the steps have proven to work for many, millions even, so if you are beginning to think there is no way out, give it a try! Do so with honesty, an open mind, and patience. And if you need to add to that seeing a therapist or taking medication, then by all means, do so. Whatever helps! After all, I have not been addressing my addiction through a group like AA alone. I have also been turning to the Church for Her guidance and Sacraments, and it would have been hard for me to get better without doing so. Yes, there will be those who think you are being irrational, silly, or whatever you want to call it for turning to God, but those who have recovered (or who are on their way to recovery) by doing so will tell you there is nothing illogical about it. Good luck! I will be praying for your recovery. Please pray for mine!

Peace!

Seeker

 

[blessedtoo]

I am but not for chemical dependency. I would refer such a person to a medical doctor, and suggest that they follow her advice.

I am glad to hear that as most medical doctors (mine included) understand, appreciate, and accept the important role AA plays in addiction recovery. They, unlike you, do not have an axe to grind.

I did, if you would like to contribute, then have a look. If you can’t discuss AA without the religious elements, then perhaps it is indeed a religious organization.

Yes, I saw your threads last night and it only confirms my suspicion that your intent is to discredit AA’s spiritual component rather than discuss it’s efficacy.

I am always happy to talk about the SPIRITUAL elements of AA with those who can approach the topic with an open mind. There are many, many atheists in AA. When I first entered those rooms, I considered myself agnostic, and balked at the mere mention of a “higher power”. Yet the individuals within the group were open minded enough and flexible enough to explain that a “god of my understanding” was all that was necessary for recovery. In fact, that “god” could be the group itself.

Like the poster above articulated, we are powerless over many things in our lives - and we have no qualms turning over our power to doctors, therapists, law enforcement, etc. But those who believe that God is more powerful are considered fools?

 

[_A]

You cannot set us up to discuss AA in religious or spiritual terms and then berate us for doing so. That is what I call alcoholic behavior.

marietta

I never called for discussing it in spiritual terms - I would much rather use rational terms.
I guess I am as much an alcoholic as anyone else, since it is a usually self-diagnosed illness with no pathology.
I do not identify myself as an alcoholic, though.
It is funny stuff to see how many people really think being critical of the church of AA is ‘alcoholic behaviour’.

So A, it’s about Power, or the ‘absence’ of it… and with what.

If a burglar breaks into your house, what will you do? Confront him; hide in the bedroom closet; call the police. At that moment, who is powerless?

No-one, in this example. Even if I hide in my closet, I am exercising a small amount of power. Calling people powerless is not true, so I would not support it.

Is it so hard to understand? Have you not been powerless in your life in any other ways, that you cannot relate to it?

I have felt that way, but it has never been true.

Have you never been scared (to death) in any situations?

I have never been scared to death.
I have been quite frightened, and telling myself I was powerless would not have helped.
Usually paying attention to what power I do have and concentrating on being in control of what I can is an effective path.

One only has to separate the ‘reaction’ with the ‘turning over’ to understand how one can be powerless over alcohol (drugs).

No-one is powerless over drugs or alcohol. Everyone I have ever met has had some power, whether they believe it or not. That power is the only thing that ever does help someone stop destructive drinking or drugging. I couldn’t deny it because it would be a lie.

In trying to explore more the idea of powerlessness, I have provided some examples of my own, which have been left untouched. I thought that that was one of the points (at least the first main one) about this thread, but then I’ve been told of my ‘imaginary god’ and other such things, and am coming to realize that I’ve been mistaken as to the purpose of this thread. A, it appears to me that you don’t want to talk about the steps necessarily, but about the “silly” idea of an all-powerful God. I may be mistaken, and if I am I apologize. I’m merely coming to this conclusion based on what you have been presenting recently.

If you are going to base everything on the bible (which is at best an old book of fiction, not anything useful in a clinical sense) then we can’t get anywhere.
If, however, you can stick to the real world, then we can talk about the steps.

How do you expect us to have a serious conversation with you if you are taking this as an opportunity to make fun of our beliefs?

If they are funny beliefs, and you have them, how is that my doing?
I don’t mind respecting people, but ideas can stand or fall on their own

To those reading, please know that the 12 steps do work.

So does this program.
Stop drinking.
The only time this method has been known to fail is for those unfortunate few who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.
To those reading, don’t listen to me, or some drunk, go see a medical doctor, and be honest with that doctor and yourself.

Good luck! I will be praying for your recovery. Please pray for mine!

Peace!

Seeker

Don’t just pray, the support of friends (not ‘enabling’, supporting) and family seem to have quite a good effect.

I am glad to hear that as most medical doctors (mine included) understand, appreciate, and accept the important role AA plays in addiction recovery. They, unlike you, do not have an axe to grind.
Yes, I saw your threads last night and it only confirms my suspicion that your intent is to discredit AA’s spiritual component rather than discuss it’s efficacy.

You and I can discuss AA’s efficacy all we want, but the organization itself doesn’t care. They care more about the size of their membership than about how well, or even if their ‘help’ is really helping.

Like the poster above articulated, we are powerless over many things in our lives - and we have no qualms turning over our power to doctors, therapists, law enforcement, etc. /quote]Even if all we have power to do is to ask for help, that is not powerless.
blessedtoo;4183989:

But those who believe that God is more powerful are considered fools?

I do consider anyone who thinks of their god as powerful as pretty low on the sensibility scale. Any god who has been described to me so far (in several decades) has absolutely no power at all. In fact, there are a whole sheaf of prepared excuses for why one god or another refuses to show it’s power. So far the only power I have seen associated with gods at all is the belief of believers. If your god actually does have power, I would be happy to measure it. We could be the first, too…maybe even take the Randi prize…but only if we can prove something outside of peoples imagination.