If you don't know about AA and the 12 steps

[Seeker_Of_Truth]

If you are going to base everything on the bible (which is at best an old book of fiction, not anything useful in a clinical sense) then we can’t get anywhere.
If, however, you can stick to the real world, then we can talk about the steps. If they are funny beliefs, and you have them, how is that my doing?

I provided an example that was not biblical. It was an analogy showing the concept of powerlessness. Again, I thought this was a serious thread analyzing the steps, not taking every chance you could find to make fun of others. What a shame.

So does this program.
Stop drinking.
The only time this method has been known to fail is for those unfortunate few who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves.

To stop drinking, lusting, or whatever the addiction is, is easy. Not starting again is the hard part.

Don’t just pray, the support of friends (not ‘enabling’, supporting) and family seem to have quite a good effect.

I agree. Find that support. And keep praying! Prayer is incredibly powerful - its not “just” prayer.

You and I can discuss AA’s efficacy all we want, but the organization itself doesn’t care. They care more about the size of their membership than about how well, or even if their ‘help’ is really helping.

Care to back this up?

 

[anon52328184]

i found a lot of people at the 12 step programs to be very unfriendly and they all acted like they were so tough. i think that is why i never could relax.
they might be sitting in a 12 step program, but they were still in a lot of pain.
they were far from being mentally healthy and that is why i think you need more than a 12 step program.

i was in a program, not because i was the substance or alcohol abuser, but because of living around people who were the addicts.

so my case might be different than others.

 

[_A]

"_A_:

You and I can discuss AA’s efficacy all we want, but the organization itself doesn’t care. They care more about the size of their membership than about how well, or even if their ‘help’ is really helping.

Care to back this up?

Would it make a difference?
Me writing to AA:

To whom it may concern:
I have been looking for peer-reviewed evidence regarding the effectiveness of your program. Could you please direct me to the resources you have in this area?

Their response:

**From:** CPC [mailto:cpc@aa.org]

To: A
Subject: FW: Query

Dear Mr. A,

We appreciate your interest in Alcoholics Anonymous. Alcoholics Anonymous began in 1935, and today has over two million members around the world. A.A.’s sole purpose is to help the alcoholic recover through our Twelve Step program of recovery.

A.A. doesn’t gather information about the success rate of A.A.; we don’t keep track of individual members. We offer some materials that share about A.A. membership. The Alcoholics Anonymous Membership Survey conducted every three years offers a snapshot of A.A. membership at a particular point in time. You can find the survey results on G.S.O.’s A.A. Web Site at aa.org/en_media_resources.cfm?PageID=75.

An estimate of A.A. members and groups around the world is also published annually. Let me know if you would like me to e-mail you a copy of this document.

Colour-coding added by A after the fact.
RED items were edited
Here is their interest in efficacy in a nutshell.

Here they go out of their way every 3 years to count the congregation.

What I said was that they care more about the size of the congregation than if their help was helping.
They present their congregation size when asked about their efficacy.
Now does it make any difference, or will you try to apologetics your way around this?

 

[anon52328184]

Hi everyone. I am wondering what the Catholic community here thinks of AA. I suppose I should post the steps complete, first. (source aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf)

Personally, I have looked at it and it doesn’t stand up to reason. I would like to take the time to try and study it rationally, and we could start with the first step.
from the horses mouth - aa.org/lang/en/en_pdfs/smf-121_en.pdf

I have to discard this based on the following. Claiming that people are powerless can be proven wrong with just one of those people demonstrating power.
The example I have is that some people living with dependancy will choose to stay ‘clean and sober’ for a meeting such as a court date, or a sentencing hearing. This may demonstrate only the slightest bit of power over alcohol, but power it is, falsifying the first step.
That a life can be unmanageable is also clearly false. If one had a good management plan and willing execution, what could possibly make a life ‘unmanageable’? (not to mention that many ‘alcoholics’ show various levels of management skills in this area)

AA has had a virtual monopoly on this subject for quite a while now. I have a little direct experience. While I do not have a problem with alcohol, I have been to many meetings of AA (first in 1981 or 82) and currently about 1/10 of my clients have some kind of substance abuse issue. Many of them attend AA (though the only client I have who has beaten alcohol for any length of time did it with real doctors and no AA).

I hope particularly to get some people discussing this who do NOT have a connection with AA. Those in the AA congregation do not always see the flaws in the core of the program clearly.

did you ever get past step one? to me, the program highlights all the defects of our character and didn’t do a lot to help see the positive aspects of our character. i have read a lot of the AA material and other material associated with 12 step programs. the meditation books were the best that gave you a quote to live day by day.

 

[marietta]

A writes:
*
"We could be the first, too…maybe even take the Randi prize…but only if we can prove something outside of peoples imagination."*

People live subjectively, according to their own experiences and lessons and beliefs. So, just for a moment, let’s presume that you have a flex mind and are willing to experiment a little. Try for five minutes to live outside of your own imagination, the one that tells you that God does not exist. Try embracing the idea that if a drunk does not believe he is powerless then perhaps he needs to do a little more “research” and stay out of the meeting rooms until he gets his a** kicked by booze. See if you can imagine maintaining a thriving business concern and all the while, behind the veil, you are watching your home, your family and your health slipping away because everything is run by, is fueled by, alcohol. Maybe you could imagine being a damaged vet, an incested teenager, an obese widow, a bi-polar misfit. Then dump a few thousand cases of vodka on top of those conditions, because you must know they go hand in hand for many of us. We reach out to a higher power, whatever it may be, because we cannot help ourselves.

You are under the wrong impression that we retain some sort of power through this treacherous terrain. We do not. Alcoholism is insanity. There is no power in true insanity. We fall and get up hundreds of times a year but continue to fall until we are powerless to get up one more time. Any illusion of power, usually transparent and driven by pride, has been replaced by now with despondency, hopelessness and fear. These things have no power unless and until they are transformed by prayer. So to whom do we pray? I’ve had several agnostic friends who began their journey toward lasting sobriety by praying to a light bulb. They designated this object as a power greater than themselves not only as a measure to pursue wellness but as an act of humility.

I don’t read any humility in your posts, A. What are you so mad about? Have you ever sought counseling yourself, or are you too . . . powerful?

marietta

 

[marietta]

A writes:

“The example I have is that some people living with dependancy will choose to stay ‘clean and sober’ for a meeting such as a court date, or a sentencing hearing. This may demonstrate only the slightest bit of power over alcohol, but power it is, falsifying the first step.”

If a person has to negotiate with his disease as to when he can and cannot indulge, that puts the disease in charge. The person has no power in this scenario.

In 18 years of drinking and drugging, I never had more than nine continuous “dry” days. It was supposed to be ten, because I was on a ten-day Rx of antibiotics, but mid-way through day nine the obsession called, the compulsion answered, and I was beat by booze once more. It lingers, it is always in my head, even 24 years into sobriety. If I lose my relationship with my enemy it will bring me down again. Better to have it where I can see it and hear it.

To that end, I thank you for bringing your cynicism to this thread.

marietta

 

[marietta]

did you ever get past step one? to me, the program highlights all the defects of our character and didn’t do a lot to help see the positive aspects of our character. i have read a lot of the AA material and other material associated with 12 step programs. the meditation books were the best that gave you a quote to live day by day.

The positive aspects of our character may need to evolve, but they do not need to be scrutinized under the bright light of reality, accepted and inventoried as character defects, examined with regard to our own participation in their development as defects, prayed about, admitted to God, to ourselves and to another person, and then changed, corrected, eliminated. AA is not a glad-handing bunch of good ol’ boys congratulating themselves on their clever abilities to slip around the responsibilities of life. Nor is it a social with women in finery, sashaying among the cucumber sandwiches, melon balls and ice sculptures.

“i found a lot of people at the 12 step programs to be very unfriendly and they all acted like they were so tough. i think that is why i never could relax.” Some may appear unfriendly because they are petrified with fear. Some are white-knuckling their way from one hour to the next. Some are actually drunk in the meetings. They act tough because they are tough. These are people who have died a thousand deaths and lived to talk about it. Alcoholism is a profoundly life-altering disease. No one chooses to be a drunk. Not all choose to sober up. Sobriety is hard.

I have found that the friendliest men and women in meetings are the ones who understand the concept of surrender. They know what it’s like to try to throw away a boomerang life. They have found peace within the fellowship because they allowed at least one person, one time, to break through the wall and come in for a visit. Real friendships are made within the walls of the meeting rooms.

The meditation books are very helpful, but they are not the heart and soul of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. Subsisting on meditation books would be like eating a steady diet of grapes. Sweet and crunchy, but no protein.

marietta

 

[strngrnrth]

I was successful using a homemade kind of RR to get sober, then a little CR and a single NA meeting for a chance to compare my experience with others’ and then back to RR, which in the late stages means basically remembering not to use and then getting on with my life.
The RR steps IIRC are to make a firm choice not to use, apologize and actually try to make it up to the main people you harmed by using (not everyone you ever bothered in oyur life, which is all but impossible and would end up as another obsession for many), then learn to recognize the addictive voice (the one that says, “Look, black tequila, try it just once… you need some Percodan and some Yellow Jackets, to clear your head for this big day at work…it’s just an herb, it’s hemp, Washington grew it, doesn’t it smell sweet?”). Then you learn to tell the addictive voice it’s wrong and then ignore it.

 

[Seeker_Of_Truth]

_A_:

Here is their interest in efficacy in a nutshell.

A.A. doesn’t gather information about the success rate of A.A.; we don’t keep track of individual members.

I addressed this before. Your conclusion does not follow from what you presented. Not gathering the success rate does not mean the same thing as not caring about its efficacy. If that were the case, then one could make the same case about the Catholic Church: since it doesn’t attempt to gather a success rate of how saintly its members are becoming, then surely it must not care! Not so. You are faulty reasoning.

Could it be that there are other reasons as to why it doesn’t conduct surveys and the like? Think about it from the perspective of an addict attending its meetings. Then think about it logistically. I’m sure that, being the rational being you are, you’ll be able to come up with some reasons other than “it doesn’t care.”

I’m being tempted to give you what I think the reasons might me right away, but I think it would be more productive if you could first provide a few of your own. It might help you approach this from a different perspective and thus provide some helpful insight. If you wanted to think about this rationally and not through knee-jerk reactions, then this is your chance!

 

[Wirraway]

is it morally correct to continue to enable the OP in his addiction? the guy surely has a serious jones for AA.

 

[anon52328184]

The positive aspects of our character may need to evolve, but they do not need to be scrutinized under the bright light of reality, accepted and inventoried as character defects, examined with regard to our own participation in their development as defects, prayed about, admitted to God, to ourselves and to another person, and then changed, corrected, eliminated. AA is not a glad-handing bunch of good ol’ boys congratulating themselves on their clever abilities to slip around the responsibilities of life. Nor is it a social with women in finery, sashaying among the cucumber sandwiches, melon balls and ice sculptures.

“i found a lot of people at the 12 step programs to be very unfriendly and they all acted like they were so tough. i think that is why i never could relax.” Some may appear unfriendly because they are petrified with fear. Some are white-knuckling their way from one hour to the next. Some are actually drunk in the meetings. They act tough because they are tough. These are people who have died a thousand deaths and lived to talk about it. Alcoholism is a profoundly life-altering disease. No one chooses to be a drunk. Not all choose to sober up. Sobriety is hard.

I have found that the friendliest men and women in meetings are the ones who understand the concept of surrender. They know what it’s like to try to throw away a boomerang life. They have found peace within the fellowship because they allowed at least one person, one time, to break through the wall and come in for a visit. Real friendships are made within the walls of the meeting rooms.

The meditation books are very helpful, but they are not the heart and soul of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. Subsisting on meditation books would be like eating a steady diet of grapes. Sweet and crunchy, but no protein.

marietta

like i said, my experience is different than yours. i am not the alcoholic or the drug abuser. i grew up with an alcoholic father and a mother who drank.
for a time, it made me a survivor, but as i get older, the angrier i am at their selfishness. they both passed away many years ago at a relatively young age. and one does not have to be an alcoholic to fall a hundred times in a year and pick yourself up. i battle depression and at times i do feel powerless over it. like i said, for those of you who find the comaderie of the AA program helpful and have been cured, congratulations. i was in the 12 step program to help me learn how to change the behaviors they said that i developed from growing up in the alocholic home. so, not only was i a victim of being the child of the alcoholic, but it was my fault i had all of these defects because i was trying to learn how to cope in the alcoholic household. thanks, but no thanks. i have enough guilt, i don’t need a 12 step program loading more baggage on my already burdened shoulders.

 

[jmcrae]

My father is a sponsor for AA. He recounts how one time a new member came in and spent his talk time whining about his ex-wife, how she was making him do this or that, including ordinary household responsibilities, taking care of his children, going to work on time, etc.

After a period of silence at the end of his talk, one of the older men said. “You know what? You’re a g-d- a**hole.”

People don’t go to AA to feel good about themselves, but rather, to be told the truth about themselves, so that they can face reality and deal with it head-on.

 

[PaulDupre]

I know several people who have had great success in conquering alcohol and drug addiction by using Rational Recovery. They discovered that they were NOT powerless over alcohol and drugs, despite all the AA folks trying to convince them that they were.

 

[anon52328184]

that was a link to a good website. i read what it said about why self-recovery? it made so much sense.

the sad thing i found out about the mental health association is that it is easier for them to throw the alcoholic, or the addict, or the person living with this person into a group like AA or al-anon so they don’t have to deal with them.

unfortunately, i think our mental health care here in america to be of pretty poor quality. if they can’t drug you or send you off to a 12 step program or hospitalize you,
they are pretty lost as to the type of care to give you.

that is all i want to add to this thread.

 

[PaulDupre]

As for AA, it just doesn’t seem like a good idea for a drunk to spend his time hanging around with other drunks talking about drinking. No wonder the relapse rate is so high. When you are convinced that you are powerless, your behavior conforms to that idea.

Maybe it’s just me…

 

[anon52328184]

i agree with you 100%. i think whenever you admit you are powerless over anything, you have already lost. that doesn’t mean you can’t ask God for his help in your battle. i just saw that these 12 step programs seemed to create self-hate in people because it makes you feel you are powerless.
i could go on and on about my perspective, but this is already bringing back bad memories. you might be fine inside your AA or 12 step group, but once you are thrown back out into the real world, it is a different story. since i grew up with alcoholics, i wanted to make sure i never was one and somehow i always knew i would have a weakness, so i learned to control my drinking at a young age. i attended a couple of AA meetings out of curiosity wondering what it would have been like if my father would ever have decided to try AA -which he didn’t. throughout the whole meeting, all i wanted to think about was alcohol, beer, how beer tasted. it made me want to immediately leave and go drink a beer when i got home. i thought to myself, this is not good.
i better not go to anymore of these meetings if that is all i can think about is alcohol. i drink maybe 1 or 2 beers a year!!
anyhow, i could go on, but out of respect to people who have been helped by AA or 12 step programs i won’t.

 

[marietta]

deborahaz writes:

“i was in the 12 step program to help me learn how to change the behaviors they said that i developed from growing up in the alocholic home. so, not only was i a victim of being the child of the alcoholic, but it was my fault i had all of these defects because i was trying to learn how to cope in the alcoholic household. thanks, but no thanks. i have enough guilt, i don’t need a 12 step program loading more baggage on my already burdened shoulders.”

My question to you is: who are “they”? “They” said you had developed certain behaviors in an alcoholic home. Did you choose to go to a 12-step program out of curiosity, or because “they” said you needed to change particular behaviors, or because you had/have an on again - off again fascination with alcohol and the alcoholic mind?

I grew up with alcoholics. My father was quite functional but drove from Massachusetts to Northern Virginia every other weekend in a blackout. When we drove him somewhere in the family car, he would complain that he heard a rattle in the back of the car. When we would pull off onto the shoulder, he would get out of the car and go into the trunk (pretending to ferret out the source of the rattle) and grab a drink from his trunk stash. Square bottles only - round ones rolled too much, made too much noise. (These were especially good in a desk drawer in the office.) This was a college-educated man, a devout Catholic, who would occasionally drink bourbon straight out of a crystal decanter in the dining room.

My two brothers drank. I went to Alateen for five years, beginning at age 13. I wanted my father to stop drinking and wrecking our home life. Simultaneously I was riding the bus downtown to D.C. and copping dope and drinking underage. I have recounted this history a few times on this forum; suffice it to say that I did it all from Dramamine to heroin, all topped off with dozens of cocktails every day, every month, every year for 18 years. The knowledge of what alcoholism is and what it does to an individual and a family does not necessarily inoculate us from becoming alcoholic ourselves.

PaulDupre writes:

*"As for AA, it just doesn’t seem like a good idea for a drunk to spend his time hanging around with other drunks talking about drinking. No wonder the relapse rate is so high. When you are convinced that you are powerless, your behavior conforms to that idea.

Maybe it’s just me…"*

Drunkalogues are certainly part of the comaraderie one will encounter in an AA meeting, but the main thing one finds is alcoholics sharing “what it used to be like, what happened, and what it’s like now”. We share our experience, strength and hope with each other that we may solve our common problem. The idea that we are convinced we are powerless so our behavior conforms to that idea is inside out. We are first beaten into submission by a cunning, baffling and powerful adversary and then we have to give it up because we are truly powerless in the face of it.

jmcrae:

Thank you so much for your hilarious tale, and the clarity it gives to the AA picture. I have never heard such spontaneous and hearty laughter anywhere other than AA. That stands for something: recovery.

marietta

 

[anon52328184]

“they” marietta means the literature “they” put out in the al-anon program that you follow in your 12 step program.

 

[Michael_David]

What is Powerless?

Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Powerless
Pow"erless, a. Destitute of power, force, or energy; weak; impotent; not able to produce any effect. – Pow"erlessly, adv. – Pow"erless*ness, n.

1. unable to produce an effect: a disease against which modern medicine is virtually powerless.
2. lacking power to act; helpless: His legs crumpled, and he was powerless to rise.

—Synonyms 1. ineffective. 2. feeble, impotent, prostrate, infirm.

Perhaps this may help with Step one. “Ineffective” in what has been tried to stop the drinking. As the example (2) states, it was only his legs that had the problem, his arms still worked. And as step one states, it only is alcohol where the powerlessness is, not in dialing a phone.

I could relate that I am powerless over fire. Every time I touch it, I get burned. Or a recent one, being powerless over Ike the hurricane. These do not mention not touching the fire, or fleeing the hurricane as ‘power’ moves, as then one is not wrestling with it but rather removing oneself from it’s (power). The only way to do it is to keep trying to win the battle over fire or hurricanes… until you really get burned or end up like Alice in Wonderland (although hers was a tornado). And here we are powerless over either. It’s best to avoid either since we know we will get whipped by either.
It is the addictive nature of alcohol, drugs and even living in one’s own mind instead of in reality, that has an obsessive quality… one can’t leave it alone. They still get too close to fire; try to ride out hurricanes; and try another drink. All these from a different angle. Until there are no angles left to try. All that one can do, and has done is “Ineffective” (aka: powerless).

 

[Seeker_Of_Truth]

What is Powerless?

Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary

Powerless
Pow"erless, a. Destitute of power, force, or energy; weak; impotent; not able to produce any effect. – Pow"erlessly, adv. – Pow"erless*ness, n.

1. unable to produce an effect: a disease against which modern medicine is virtually powerless.
2. lacking power to act; helpless: His legs crumpled, and he was powerless to rise.

—Synonyms 1. ineffective. 2. feeble, impotent, prostrate, infirm.

Perhaps this may help with Step one. “Ineffective” in what has been tried to stop the drinking. As the example (2) states, it was only his legs that had the problem, his arms still worked. And as step one states, it only is alcohol where the powerlessness is, not in dialing a phone.

I could relate that I am powerless over fire. Every time I touch it, I get burned. Or a recent one, being powerless over Ike the hurricane. These do not mention not touching the fire, or fleeing the hurricane as ‘power’ moves, as then one is not wrestling with it but rather removing oneself from it’s (power). The only way to do it is to keep trying to win the battle over fire or hurricanes… until you really get burned or end up like Alice in Wonderland (although hers was a tornado). And here we are powerless over either. It’s best to avoid either since we know we will get whipped by either.
It is the addictive nature of alcohol, drugs and even living in one’s own mind instead of in reality, that has an obsessive quality… one can’t leave it alone. They still get too close to fire; try to ride out hurricanes; and try another drink. All these from a different angle. Until there are no angles left to try. All that one can do, and has done is “Ineffective” (aka: powerless).

Wonderful post!

I would like to copy and paste an example that I posted earlier that seemed to have gotten buried among other things. Hopefully this will put this thread back on track!

An example I’d like to use is that of tag wrestling (and I’m not even a wrestling fan!). You got one of the wrestlers pinned down on the floor, completely unable to get out of that situation. If he struggles against it using his own abilities, he will never get out - the other has him pinned down that well! However, if he admits that its out of his hands, he can slap the ground twice and his partner will come and get the wrestler off his back. To get to that point, however, he has to surrender, and turn to his ‘Higher Power.’

Notice that in this example his ability to wrestle with the opponent are “ineffective,” as Michael clarified. So, on his own, he is powerless over bringing the desire effect by himself. The calling for help is not a wrestling move against his opponent. All the moves he knows to get out of such situations were used and proved to be “unable to produce the desired effect.” The last he can do in such a state is to cry for help. This action is not a wrestling move against his opponent - it is letting his partner know that he surrendered. Michale said, “And as step one states, it only is alcohol where the powerlessness is, not in dialing a phone.” And so it is with this situation. It only is with getting the other wrestler off his back by himself where the powerlessness is, not in calling for help.