If you don't want children...

[Calliso]

There is nothing wrong with a man that doesn’t want kids, if it’s not in his religion’s teaching that marriage includes kids, like most non-denominational churches do. I used to be one, no worries. I know.

If you are Catholic, you must be open to life, you must embrace children in your marriage. Go back and read my last post I put for you.

Before you come on a Catholic site, please come with Catholic understanding to give good Catholic advice. If you are not Catholic, it is almost futile and truly confuses those who are trying to learn about our wonderful Catholic Faith. It also causes disunity because in non-denominational religions, from my experience and knowledge being in one in the past, I know that we would pick and choose from the Bible, and ‘translate’ verses to our own belief system, or who ever was the pastor.

For example. One non-d church I attended spoke of the prodigal son story as something to be happy about, not mentioning the torment his brother felt when his father accepted his son back, no questions asked. Another pastor distorted this story to the point of making it truly confusing and almost insulting, and how it’s not fair for the other son who remained faithful to his father… which in the end the story is about God’s mercy for everyone who comes back to Him.

Anyhow, you get the point.

Well I never really gave the OP any real advice. I just symphasized with her and told her I donlt know what she should do. The closest thing I have said to going against Catholic teachings is basically saying I donlt believe in the whole marriage is about kids thing. But I never told the OP she should follow in my path or just get married and contracept or whatever. But I also understand situations like these are not so black and white as some posters can make them seem and she is going to have a tough choice in front of her. And no matter what she does somebody gets hurt.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Well I never really gave the OP any real advice. I just symphasized with her and told her I donlt know what she should do. The closest thing I have said to going against Catholic teachings is basically saying I donlt believe in the whole marriage is about kids thing. But I never told the OP she should follow in my path or just get married and contracept or whatever. But I also understand situations like these are not so black and white as some posters can make them seem and she is going to have a tough choice in front of her. And no matter what she does somebody gets hurt.

Just having you adding your “yeah, that’s right” to the OP, is undermining our teaching to her about our faith. (She is Catholic or says she is.)* see below * So if she is following our faith, she cannot go into a marriage with the intent not to have children.

In fact, there are at least 3 separate threads on CAF right now, from women who either don’t want kids at all, don’t want any more kids, or don’t want to be a mom now that they have a child. This is very troubling and on each thread, there are posters from other religions who are agreeing with the contraceptive viewpoint.

:banghead:

• Edited: I went back and looked, and PumpkinSeed calls herself a “follower of Christ.” So I am not sure if she really is a Catholic or what. If not, I wonder what she’s doing asking such a question of Catholics?? Of course she is going to hear that we must go into a marriage expecting and welcoming children!

Sigh…

 

[JacarandaPurple]

True. If she’s not Catholic, why does she care what any of us think? There are plenty of other denominations, and courthouses, that will marry her on her terms.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Thank you guys for your feedback. You answered my question.

 

[presidentjlh]

If you get married and do not have kids, (infertility not being the case), then you will be living in sin, if you are Catholic.

I don’t think you can necessarily say that though, because perhaps, even if infertility’s not an issue, perhaps it is not in God’s plan for them to have kids still. That doesn’t inherently mean they’ve sinned, no more than a person being overweight inherently means they are gluttons.

 

[jilly4ski]

I don’t think you can necessarily say that though, because perhaps, even if infertility’s not an issue, perhaps it is not in God’s plan for them to have kids still. That doesn’t inherently mean they’ve sinned, no more than a person being overweight inherently means they are gluttons.

If they get married in the Catholic Church with a permanent intention against children then it is a sin. They might not ever have kids with infertility, or another unexpected issue that comes up after the wedding. But they cannot enter the married state with an intention against children.

 

[presidentjlh]

If they get married in the Catholic Church with a permanent intention against children then it is a sin. They might not ever have kids with infertility, or another unexpected issue that comes up after the wedding. But they cannot enter the married state with an intention against children.

Oh, of course, I was merely making a point.

 

[feed_me]

I am going to go ahead and put my thoughts into this, and being blunt.

I can understand where the OP is coming from, I don’t also have the interest in kids. Being with a friend and dealing with her kids, made me realized that kids weren’t for me, even though I thought they were, I also come from a abused childhood, and don’t want to end up sending that abuse to them.

Now for the bluntness, to the OP, what everybody is saying is that if you are to get married, and not want kids; when we read what you say, we see that you might have lustfull intentions to only want to get married, to only have sex, and not worry about kids along the way. I remind you that that kinda marriage is doomed to fail, and you will end up stuck for the rest of you life in a miserbal marriage, bound by the vows, and it will be obligation only. Not good. This goes to everybody. A marriage based on sex will fail very fast. seen it happen, many times… unfortunatly . Entering into marriage, is a very serious matter, and you have to be able to take all that comes with it, including children. Using beads will also be considered a sin because you are delaying children, even if you get pregnant later on. Its a natural process that shouldn’t be delayed by a plug for the hole, using the beads that you are talking about. Now please forgive me if you think that I have joined in the wolf pack. I do not mean any intent of harm. I just want you to know that it(marriage)is what it is, and is to be given %100, with no delays or outside interference. God will judge when all is to fall into place. You can also read the story about Abraham, and how he wanted kids with his wife sara, and didn’t get any untill he was an old man.This story can also shed some light on some of the people that are reading this thread, and wanted to see the oposite effect from the OPs’ POV.

Now to clear up another issue. @ mini_me640-- Celebacy for the priests is actually a obligation that has no choice in it. They can say that many don’t want to be celibate, but they couldn’t make that free choice, They had to take that vow to serve God. It was not free to begin with. It was either take this vow, or you can’t be a priest. Matthew 19 12 – Some because they were made so by others. They way it should of stayed from the time of Christ till now was to be able to serve God under no vow of celibacy, and decide later on if you wanted to take the vow for the sake of the kingdom, Matthew 19 12 – Some because they give it up for the sake of the kingdom of God; or get married to a wife and take on the extra burden of kids, and a family. That’s the free choice way.

@Calliso – You are right, about 2 becoming 1 flesh. It is a bond of marriage, a union that should never be broken till death. If you can’t have kids, you still become one flesh in union. Now last time I did check that scripture, it said 1 flesh (singular, meaning 1). When you have more then 1 kid; that does mean multiple flesh, Scripture said 1 (singular, meaning 1, uno). Genesis 2 24 – That is why a man leaves his father and mother and clings to his wife, and the two of them become one body.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

I am going to go ahead and put my thoughts into this, and being blunt.

I can understand where the OP is coming from, I don’t also have the interest in kids. Being with a friend and dealing with her kids, made me realized that kids weren’t for me, even though I thought they were, I also come from a abused childhood, and don’t want to end up sending that abuse to them.

Now for the bluntness, to the OP, what everybody is saying is that if you are to get married, and not want kids; when we read what you say, we see that you might have lustfull intentions to only want to get married, to only have sex, and not worry about kids along the way. I remind you that that kinda marriage is doomed to fail, and you will end up stuck for the rest of you life in a miserbal marriage, bound by the vows, and it will be obligation only. Not good. This goes to everybody. A marriage based on sex will fail very fast. seen it happen, many times… unfortunatly . Entering into marriage, is a very serious matter, and you have to be able to take all that comes with it, including children. Using beads will also be considered a sin because you are delaying children, even if you get pregnant later on. Its a natural process that shouldn’t be delayed by a plug for the hole, using the beads that you are talking about. Now please forgive me if you think that I have joined in the wolf pack. I do not mean any intent of harm. I just want you to know that it(marriage)is what it is, and is to be given %100, with no delays or outside interference. God will judge when all is to fall into place. You can also read the story about Abraham, and how he wanted kids with his wife sara, and didn’t get any untill he was an old man.This story can also shed some light on some of the people that are reading this thread, and wanted to see the oposite effect from the OPs’ POV.

Ok a few things- I’m not getting married to have sex. I am getting married out of love. Sex is not the only part of marriage. It is love and comes with many benifits (with the law) when you are recognized as a married couple. Quit thinking this is just about sex because it’s not.

The beads that i was talking about is a natural birth control used by many catholics
cyclebeads.com/

 

[JacarandaPurple]

Ah… but, here we go round the circle again… to marry with a permanent intention against procreation is a grave misuse of sex. It’s also unloving, both to potential children, and also to your spouse, whom you refuse to accept fully, or give yourself to fully.

“I love every part of you except your fertility” is not love of his whole being. And “I offer you my whole self except my fertility” is not the gift of your whole self to him.

So, are you Catholic, or not? And if not, why do you care about any of this discussion?

edited to add: so you have already moved from questioning whether you can or should marry into being certain that you ARE getting married? That was quick…

 

[JacarandaPurple]

P.S. no I do not normally stalk forums at all hours, but I am at work tonight and stuck with an assignment where I literally have nothing to do…

 

[InJesusItrust]

What if you marry not to have sex but to have a companion?. Is it still a sin? I don’t plan on having sex but I would still want a wife. I’ve loved people without lusting after them.

 

[JacarandaPurple]

If you don’t have sex, she’s not your wife. One of the grounds on which an annulment can be granted is non-consummation.

 

[pepipop]

How is what I feel a bad thing though?

Obviously my feelings are about ME because I’m talking about my own feelings.

But nobody has explained why NOT wanting kids is a bad thing. How can I HELP the way I feel? How do I CHANGE the way I feel if this is how I’ve always felt?

People so quick to say whats wrong but don’t bother saying how to fix it.

So… I’m waiting

I was the same in my 20’s and after my first niece was born that changed me completely - prior to that, I didn’t understand why anyone would want children either. I know a friend who met her husband in her 20’s, who also did not want children (she is not catholic), and has since had two beautiful children in her late 30’s, she adores them.

Pray to God to give you the feelings to love children and you will then understand the joy of having them. Feelings are just that and controlled by hormones, chemicals and so on - women with higher estrogen levels will have stronger maternal instincts than those will lower levels, it’s just biology and associated with our ‘human biological’ side to our nature, not our spiritual side.
children sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X11002169

 

[Calliso]

Ah… but, here we go round the circle again… to marry with a permanent intention against procreation is a grave misuse of sex. It’s also unloving, both to potential children, and also to your spouse, whom you refuse to accept fully, or give yourself to fully.

“I love every part of you except your fertility” is not love of his whole being. And “I offer you my whole self except my fertility” is not the gift of your whole self to him.

So, are you Catholic, or not? And if not, why do you care about any of this discussion?

edited to add: so you have already moved from questioning whether you can or should marry into being certain that you ARE getting married? That was quick…

Well maybe she was once Catholic or has Catholic parents? I donlt know maybe she is just curious. Also unless this thread is the first time she has ever given this thought then yeah I agree its fast. But I doubt it is. However we also do not know all of what she has decided. I mean has she decided to get married and contracept or get sterilized to avoid kids? Or has she decided to get married try her hand at nfp but otherwise remain open to any children that may happen? We donlt know.

 

[Calliso]

Just having you adding your “yeah, that’s right” to the OP, is undermining our teaching to her about our faith. (She is Catholic or says she is.)* see below * So if she is following our faith, she cannot go into a marriage with the intent not to have children.

In fact, there are at least 3 separate threads on CAF right now, from women who either don’t want kids at all, don’t want any more kids, or don’t want to be a mom now that they have a child. This is very troubling and on each thread, there are posters from other religions who are agreeing with the contraceptive viewpoint.

:banghead:

• Edited: I went back and looked, and PumpkinSeed calls herself a “follower of Christ.” So I am not sure if she really is a Catholic or what. If not, I wonder what she’s doing asking such a question of Catholics?? Of course she is going to hear that we must go into a marriage expecting and welcoming children!

Sigh…

Hmm I never thought by agreeing with her in one post that I was undermining the Catholic faith
But anyway it does appear she is not Catholic anyway. I noticed that before but didn;t know if she had other reasons for asking for Catholic opinions like maybe her parents are Catholic or she was at one time. I don;t really know what sort of denomination if it is one at all followers of Christ is. Or if its kinda like my nondemoninational thing.
I have seen a couple of these threads but I donlt really see it as that big of a deal really. It probably just seems like a lot maybe because they popped up around the same time? Cause they do pop up in these forums every once in a while.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

This thread illustrates the contraceptive mentality and how it’s now difficult for people who have grown up in it to see the selfishness involved with it. Like telling a fish that it’s wet, we make almost no impact into the “But I don’t want children” viewpoint of the OP and others who have chimed in.

This is how civilizations decline. There was no such option before birth controls were invented. And people in earlier generations could not have even imagined it. But here we are.

“I want to marry and have sex, but no kids please.”

“I want only 2 kids, no more.”

“I don’t want kids now, maybe later.”

“I want a girl and a boy, in that order.”

Was watching a show last night about a sperm donor whose sperm has been used to create over 70 children. And he’s not the only one! You can order someone’s sperm by physical characteristics: Blue eyes, brown hair, tall, slender build, postgrad education, etc. The whole thing made me want to vomit. Here people are, ordering their children, and yet every day, babies are killed in their mothers’ wombs. I said a silent prayer, “God, please take care of this, it’s time. Look what we’ve done - we’ve topped Sodom and Gomorrah many times over.” Maybe that’s wrong of me but how do we ever fix this mess???

 

[Calliso]

This thread illustrates the contraceptive mentality and how it’s now difficult for people who have grown up in it to see the selfishness involved with it. Like telling a fish that it’s wet, we make almost no impact into the “But I don’t want children” viewpoint of the OP and others who have chimed in.

This is how civilizations decline. There was no such option before birth controls were invented. And people in earlier generations could not have even imagined it. But here we are.

“I want to marry and have sex, but no kids please.”

“I want only 2 kids, no more.”

“I don’t want kids now, maybe later.”

“I want a girl and a boy, in that order.”

Was watching a show last night about a sperm donor whose sperm has been used to create over 70 children. And he’s not the only one! You can order someone’s sperm by physical characteristics: Blue eyes, brown hair, tall, slender build, postgrad education, etc. The whole thing made me want to vomit. Here people are, ordering their children, and yet every day, babies are killed in their mothers’ wombs. I said a silent prayer, “God, please take care of this, it’s time. Look what we’ve done - we’ve topped Sodom and Gomorrah many times over.” Maybe that’s wrong of me but how do we ever fix this mess???

Actually in ancient times there was a plant that was used so often for birth control that it is not extinct. So actually I think in the past had they had more effective options they would have used them. Then you have to think that as you go back further in the past infant mortality rates would have been pretty high many people did not make it out of childhood so having lots of kids so hopefully a few survive kinda made sense. Not to mention before the invention of modern farm equipment not to mention many other things well farming was a lot more work and even just basic house work like doing the laundry was far more work then it is today. So in the past it made sense to have lots of kids though even then like I said before I think if people had more options they would have used them. Though probably not to the extent we do now. But noadays there isn;t such a need to have large families.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Actually in ancient times there was a plant that was used so often for birth control that it is not extinct. So actually I think in the past had they had more effective options they would have used them. Then you have to think that as you go back further in the past infant mortality rates would have been pretty high many people did not make it out of childhood so having lots of kids so hopefully a few survive kinda made sense. Not to mention before the invention of modern farm equipment not to mention many other things well farming was a lot more work and even just basic house work like doing the laundry was far more work then it is today. So in the past it made sense to have lots of kids though even then like I said before I think if people had more options they would have used them. Though probably not to the extent we do now. But noadays there isn;t such a need to have large families.

Thank you, you just proved my point. Another rationalization for birth control!

You’re all wet, Mr. Fish.

 

[JacarandaPurple]

So which of my five shall I send back now that you have deemed their existence unecessary?

And since when does the fact that humans have engaged in disordered behavior in the past justify continuing that? BTW those plants weren’t/aren’t contraceptives. They’re abortifacients. You really wanna go there?