If you don't want children...

[Calliso]

Thank you, you just proved my point. Another rationalization for birth control!

You’re all wet, Mr. Fish.

I was just trying to make the point that people in the past just didn;t love children more then we do. They had reasons for having lots of kids. And the fact that there was a plant that was used for contraception so much it went extinct tells me the desire for contraception has been there for a long long time. But people act like its just in the past century that suddenly people want to decide when they have kids.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I was just trying to make the point that people in the past just didn;t love children more then we do. They had reasons for having lots of kids. And the fact that there was a plant that was used for contraception so much it went extinct tells me the desire for contraception has been there for a long long time. But people act like its just in the past century that suddenly people want to decide when they have kids.

People in the past didn’t NEED reasons for having kids, they just had them. But we have been in the contraceptive mentality for 40 years now, and the brainwashing has been steady and relentless.

You are assuming that the reason that plant (if it’s even real) went extinct (if it did) is because it was used so often (abortafacient) that it disappeared? Real stretch. And, so what if it did? Does not mean using anything like that isn’t a sin. That would indeed, be a sin.

As I said before, not reproducing is what kills civilizations.

 

[Calliso]

So which of my five shall I send back now that you have deemed their existence unecessary?

And since when does the fact that humans have engaged in disordered behavior in the past justify continuing that? BTW those plants weren’t/aren’t contraceptives. They’re abortifacients. You really wanna go there?

ok well my point was is people in the distant past desired to control birth as well. They didn;t have quite the options we have though not to mention there were practical reasons for having large families. But people act like its just in the past century that people have suddenly decided they want to control how many children they have and when. Which isn;t true at all. I am not saying either that because people did something in the past it justifies it now. I just get tired of hearing well in the past blah blah blah.

 

[insideitall]

it is very difficult to change a person’s worldview. older women have been brainwashed not only into thinking that children don’t have to be a possible result from sex, but that marriage isn’t even necessary for sex. younger women have been raised with this teaching and to them it is completely normal.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of people who speak out against abortion are women, for the simple reason that men have been told for so long that “abortion is a women’s right” that they don’t dare open their mouths about the subject. one time I heard a guy say, “oh, I can’t comment on this, I’m not a woman.” no wonder this “culture of death” isn’t going anywhere, if half the population feels they’re not allowed to speak??

my take on this whole thing is that if people really, really don’t want kids - for whatever reason, I don’t care if they’re being selfish or not, that’s their business - then they shouldn’t be having sex, regardless of whether they’re dating or married.

it’s really quite simple. no sex means no abortions. no sex means no unwanted children. no sex means no chance to be bad parents.

(someone needs to let the un in on this, please)

 

[JimG]

I was just trying to make the point that people in the past just didn;t love children more then we do. They had reasons for having lots of kids. And the fact that there was a plant that was used for contraception so much it went extinct tells me the desire for contraception has been there for a long long time. But people act like its just in the past century that suddenly people want to decide when they have kids.

It was just in the past century that any part of Christianity accepted the practice of contraception. The Caholic Church opposed it for 2,000 years and continues to oppose it. Protestant churches opposed it beginning with every single founding reformer, from Luther to Zwingli to Calivn and others, and continued to oppose it for hundreds of years, up until 1930, when the Lambeth Conference in that year decided to allow contraception among married couples for grave reasons. 1930 was the first break in the unanimous Christian disapproval of contraception for 2,000 years.

Some people thought it might be a slippery slope, but what actually happened after that? Well, there was increased promiscuity, more fornication, more adultery, more divorce, followed by no-fault divorce, acceptance of extra-marital sex, lots of unwed mothers, lots of fatherless families, abandoned children, increased out of wedlock pregnancy rate, decline of the family, and now, homosexual marriage.

 

[Rence]

What should you do? Should you stop dating completely and totally forget about marriage? I know that birth control is a sin in the church, and that you are not allowed to get married unless you have kids, so is the only option to just stop dating for the rest of your life? What would you do?

I never wanted children. I haven’t dated in a long long time (years). Now that I’m approaching menopause, I wouldn’t mind getting married. But now I don’t have the pressure of having kids, and there is nothing against the teachings of the Church to get married after menopause. So I feel I have the best of both worlds. I can adopt.

 

[jilly4ski]

ok well my point was is people in the distant past desired to control birth as well. They didn;t have quite the options we have though not to mention there were practical reasons for having large families. But people act like its just in the past century that people have suddenly decided they want to control how many children they have and when. Which isn;t true at all. I am not saying either that because people did something in the past it justifies it now. I just get tired of hearing well in the past blah blah blah.

Indeed things existed to work as abortions and contraception in those days, (including infanticide), and the very first Christian community categorically rejected such use as sinful and against the faith. The Didache from the first century or early second century forbade the use of this things. Here is a good article with many sources from very early on in the Christian world. ncregister.com/daily-news/abortion-contraception-and-the-church-fathers/

 

[Calliso]

People in the past didn’t NEED reasons for having kids, they just had them. But we have been in the contraceptive mentality for 40 years now, and the brainwashing has been steady and relentless.

You are assuming that the reason that plant (if it’s even real) went extinct (if it did) is because it was used so often (abortafacient) that it disappeared? Real stretch. And, so what if it did? Does not mean using anything like that isn’t a sin. That would indeed, be a sin.

As I said before, not reproducing is what kills civilizations.

No people had reasons for having kids then. They just didn;t have kids for no reason! But they also like I said didn;t have the options we do for controlling birth. Abstaining completely was the only truly effective and safe way and lets face it many people aren;t goign to be will to abstain for monthes or even years at a time.
No I distinctly remember reading about this plant can;t remember what it is called though. But yeah it is apparently either extinct or so rare now that it is thought to be extinct. I am also not saying that it is or was ok to use abortafacients but just pointing out the desire and use of contraceptives and abortafacients isn;t something that has appeared just in the past century. It has been going on for thousands of years.

Also no one is saying that no one should reproduce. Civilization is just fine it isn;t going to disappear because a small percentage of people donlt reproduce.

 

[Calliso]

It was just in the past century that any part of Christianity accepted the practice of contraception. The Caholic Church opposed it for 2,000 years and continues to oppose it. Protestant churches opposed it beginning with every single founding reformer, from Luther to Zwingli to Calivn and others, and continued to oppose it for hundreds of years, up until 1930, when the Lambeth Conference in that year decided to allow contraception among married couples for grave reasons. 1930 was the first break in the unanimous Christian disapproval of contraception for 2,000 years.

Some people thought it might be a slippery slope, but what actually happened after that? Well, there was increased promiscuity, more fornication, more adultery, more divorce, followed by no-fault divorce, acceptance of extra-marital sex, lots of unwed mothers, lots of fatherless families, abandoned children, increased out of wedlock pregnancy rate, decline of the family, and now, homosexual marriage.

To be fair though I am not sure if you can tie all of that to birth control being accept in most christian denominations. I am not saying there isn;t some connection but the pill and so on isn;t he sole cause of all that. There are other things I am sure to take into consideration.

 

[Calliso]

I never wanted children. I haven’t dated in a long long time (years). Now that I’m approaching menopause, I wouldn’t mind getting married. But now I don’t have the pressure of having kids, and there is nothing against the teachings of the Church to get married after menopause. So I feel I have the best of both worlds. I can adopt.

Ahh true this is a possible options for the OP. Though admittingly many people would not be willing to wait to menopause. But if the OP wants to follow Catholic teachings and still get married but not have kids they may be her only option.

 

[JacarandaPurple]

Bet they thought that civilization was fine in Russia 20 years ago and wouldn’t collapse. Now they are facing demographic Armageddon. The United States birthrate is not at replacement level either, last I heard. We are growing because of immigration.

 

[Jacob18]

Look what we’ve done - we’ve topped Sodom and Gomorrah many times over."

Gave me chills. Big realization.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It was just in the past century that any part of Christianity accepted the practice of contraception. The Caholic Church opposed it for 2,000 years and continues to oppose it. Protestant churches opposed it beginning with every single founding reformer, from Luther to Zwingli to Calivn and others, and continued to oppose it for hundreds of years, up until 1930, when the Lambeth Conference in that year decided to allow contraception among married couples for grave reasons. 1930 was the first break in the unanimous Christian disapproval of contraception for 2,000 years.

Some people thought it might be a slippery slope, but what actually happened after that? Well, there was increased promiscuity, more fornication, more adultery, more divorce, followed by no-fault divorce, acceptance of extra-marital sex, lots of unwed mothers, lots of fatherless families, abandoned children, increased out of wedlock pregnancy rate, decline of the family, and now, homosexual marriage.

You left out artificial conception such as IVF, resulting in creation of 1 or 2 babies, destruction of many others, as well as sperm donation, resulting in women having children with no father on the scene, ON PURPOSE, and homosexuals creating children through donors and surrogates. Meanwhile, we allow the murder of millions of perfectly healthy babies through abortion.

We can not only not accept babies within an otherwise healthy marriage, we can’t accept when God says, “No,” so we do ANYTHING to force the issue. Some of the problems with conception are specifically BECAUSE women delay having children until they are older and have been on birth control for decades, making it harder to conceive. Many of them have had abortions and lost their fertility although they probably didn’t know it.

Yes, it’s much worse than Sodom and Gomorrah, isn’t it?

 

[Debora123]

What should you do? Should you stop dating completely and totally forget about marriage? I know that birth control is a sin in the church, and that you are not allowed to get married unless you have kids, so is the only option to just stop dating for the rest of your life? What would you do?

If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you? When I was in my early teen years, I used to be adamant that I didn’t want children. Things changed a lot and now I can’t wait to have kids.

You wouldn’t shut dating out completely. You are very likely to change your mind about wanting kids, especially when you find that special someone…

 

[Calliso]

Bet they thought that civilization was fine in Russia 20 years ago and wouldn’t collapse. Now they are facing demographic Armageddon. The United States birthrate is not at replacement level either, last I heard. We are growing because of immigration.

Well I guess we will see. Maybe you are right. However the issue here isn;t just contraceptives its that people need incentives to have lots of kids. Or perhaps adaption will be necessary.

 

[JimG]

You left out artificial conception such as IVF, resulting in creation of 1 or 2 babies, destruction of many others, as well as sperm donation, resulting in women having children with no father on the scene, ON PURPOSE, and homosexuals creating children through donors and surrogates. Meanwhile, we allow the murder of millions of perfectly healthy babies through abortion.

We can not only not accept babies within an otherwise healthy marriage, we can’t accept when God says, “No,” so we do ANYTHING to force the issue. Some of the problems with conception are specifically BECAUSE women delay having children until they are older and have been on birth control for decades, making it harder to conceive. Many of them have had abortions and lost their fertility although they probably didn’t know it.

Yes, it’s much worse than Sodom and Gomorrah, isn’t it?

Yes, I left out quite a bit. Once the link between sex and procreation was broken by the widespread acceptance of and availability of, contraception, every bad effect followed, each one having futher bad effects. Abortion had to become contraception of last resort. Women handed over control of sexual relations to men; now they had no reason to say no to sex without commitment. There was a great increase in pre-marital sex, a great increase in cohabitation by people who seemed unable to commit to lifelong marriage, abandonment of families by fathers, as we;; as deliberate rejection of fathers by women. Breaking the link between sex and procreation also resulted in the test-tube baby industry, with thousands of embryos created and destroyed in the process.

Every bad effect predicted by Pope Paul VI in Humanae Vitae has come to pass with ferocity plus a great many bad effects which he never foresaw. Acceptance of contraception was a necessary pre-requisite for all of them, including homosexual marriage–because the idea of marriage had first to be leached of meaning before it could be applied to homosexuals.

Now, many nations are in a demographic decline, which may be irreversible.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Yes, I left out quite a bit. Once the link between sex and procreation was broken by the widespread acceptance of and availability of, contraception, every bad effect followed, each one having futher bad effects. Abortion had to become contraception of last resort. Women handed over control of sexual relations to men; now they had no reason to say no to sex without commitment. There was a great increase in pre-marital sex, a great increase in cohabitation by people who seemed unable to commit to lifelong marriage, abandonment of families by fathers, as we;; as deliberate rejection of fathers by women. Breaking the link between sex and procreation also resulted in the test-tube baby industry, with thousands of embryos created and destroyed in the process.

Every bad effect predicted by Pope Paul VI in Humanae Vitae has come to pass with ferocity plus a great many bad effects which he never foresaw. Acceptance of contraception was a necessary pre-requisite for all of them, including homosexual marriage–because the idea of marriage had first to be leached of meaning before it could be applied to homosexuals.

Now, many nations are in a demographic decline, which may be irreversible.

An awful “Pandora’s Box” of evil, isn’t it? And I think there’s no Hope at the bottom of the box…except for Jesus’ return one day.

 

[akela135]

I think many people struggle with this issue today, especially if one grew up in the age of ABC. The idea is strongly put into children’s heads from a young age that “every child should be a wanted child” and while that is true, that every child should be wanted, it is taken to the extreme to say “kill any you don’t want” and “prevent until you do” and finally “children are optional and not needed”. This leads to confusion for discerning marriage.

I have struggled with this part of the marriage voaction too, so perhaps I can help you. You really have to ask yourself if you could ever accept a child lovingly and not whether you want one.

Do you own any animals right now? I own two dogs, one of which is a young German Shepherd. I love my GSD (German Shepherd Dog) but he is a lot of work. He has a dominant personality and will challenge authority in his “pack” frequently, just to see if he can get away with it. It is a constant struggle to hold the “alpha” spot. My mother will watch him from time to time and she is not an “alpha” person to the GSD so he ignores her and acts up (jumps, digs, climbs on furniture, steals food from table) unless someone more dominant is standing by to help her enforce his behavoir. My dad only sees the side of the GSD that acts up and refuses to listen to my mom, never the side I see at home, which is 90% of the time sweet and submissive. My dad has told me on several occasions that I should get rid of my GSD because he is too much work. No matter how much I tell my dad I love my dog, he can’t see the reward and happiness the dog brings me. And the thing is, my dad loves dogs and has owned about 4 throughout his life.

I think for people without children, parent/child relationships looks something like this. We see that the parents love their kids, and we personally don’t dislike the children, but we see all these negatives that would just make having our own children not work out.

There are days that I look at my dog and think “Why did I ever want you? Why am I paying all these bills and putting up with you causing me trouble? Why am I cleaning up your poop and vomit?” The answer of course is that I love my dog. That’s right, I love a dog that I picked out from a line-up of potential pets at the dog shelter. I was initially attracted to his appearance and personality but it took several weeks for me to develop any real attachment. Now despite the trouble I couldn’t imagine my life without the ridiculous GSD. So if I feel this way about dog, why in the world would I not feel the same way or way more about my child? Maybe even the original conception would come as a shock and I’d panic, thinking “I can’t do this, I’ll give it up for adoption!” It took me about 3 weeks to grow attached to my dog to the point I couldn’t consider getting rid of him. After 9 months of carrying and caring for a child is there anyway I wouldn’t completely love it more than anything? Again, this is a child that would be half me, half my FH, it would be way more special than my dog that I picked up at a shelter and just decided to own.

Being honest with you, I do not want children and never have wanted children. But owning this ridiculous GSD has taught me that when God decides to bless me with a child, me and my FH will be more than able to love and care for it. I don’t have to want the child today. I don’t have to want the child tomorrow. But when the child is on its way, I know that I’ll want it then, it would be impossible for me not to want it given everything I know about God’s love and they way I feel about the GSD.

So I’m sorry for the long post but I’ll just wrap up by saying. If you do get married, would you and your spouse be able to want and love a child that is on its way? Not interfering in God’s plan but trusting him to know when to bless you? If you can trust in God and be open to children, I see know reason you could not marry. If you feel you could never accept a child, then you should probably not marry.

 

[Calliso]

If you don’t mind me asking, how old are you? When I was in my early teen years, I used to be adamant that I didn’t want children. Things changed a lot and now I can’t wait to have kids.

You wouldn’t shut dating out completely. You are very likely to change your mind about wanting kids, especially when you find that special someone…

The thing is though she has found that special someone and he doesn;t want kids either. Though to be honest if he did want kids I would be advising her to break it off to save them both future heartache.

 

[Calliso]

I think many people struggle with this issue today, especially if one grew up in the age of ABC. The idea is strongly put into children’s heads from a young age that “every child should be a wanted child” and while that is true, that every child should be wanted, it is taken to the extreme to say “kill any you don’t want” and “prevent until you do” and finally “children are optional and not needed”. This leads to confusion for discerning marriage.

I have struggled with this part of the marriage voaction too, so perhaps I can help you. You really have to ask yourself if you could ever accept a child lovingly and not whether you want one.

Do you own any animals right now? I own two dogs, one of which is a young German Shepherd. I love my GSD (German Shepherd Dog) but he is a lot of work. He has a dominant personality and will challenge authority in his “pack” frequently, just to see if he can get away with it. It is a constant struggle to hold the “alpha” spot. My mother will watch him from time to time and she is not an “alpha” person to the GSD so he ignores her and acts up (jumps, digs, climbs on furniture, steals food from table) unless someone more dominant is standing by to help her enforce his behavoir. My dad only sees the side of the GSD that acts up and refuses to listen to my mom, never the side I see at home, which is 90% of the time sweet and submissive. My dad has told me on several occasions that I should get rid of my GSD because he is too much work. No matter how much I tell my dad I love my dog, he can’t see the reward and happiness the dog brings me. And the thing is, my dad loves dogs and has owned about 4 throughout his life.

I think for people without children, parent/child relationships looks something like this. We see that the parents love their kids, and we personally don’t dislike the children, but we see all these negatives that would just make having our own children not work out.

There are days that I look at my dog and think “Why did I ever want you? Why am I paying all these bills and putting up with you causing me trouble? Why am I cleaning up your poop and vomit?” The answer of course is that I love my dog. That’s right, I love a dog that I picked out from a line-up of potential pets at the dog shelter. I was initially attracted to his appearance and personality but it took several weeks for me to develop any real attachment. Now despite the trouble I couldn’t imagine my life without the ridiculous GSD. So if I feel this way about dog, why in the world would I not feel the same way or way more about my child? Maybe even the original conception would come as a shock and I’d panic, thinking “I can’t do this, I’ll give it up for adoption!” It took me about 3 weeks to grow attached to my dog to the point I couldn’t consider getting rid of him. After 9 months of carrying and caring for a child is there anyway I wouldn’t completely love it more than anything? Again, this is a child that would be half me, half my FH, it would be way more special than my dog that I picked up at a shelter and just decided to own.

Being honest with you, I do not want children and never have wanted children. But owning this ridiculous GSD has taught me that when God decides to bless me with a child, me and my FH will be more than able to love and care for it. I don’t have to want the child today. I don’t have to want the child tomorrow. But when the child is on its way, I know that I’ll want it then, it would be impossible for me not to want it given everything I know about God’s love and they way I feel about the GSD.

So I’m sorry for the long post but I’ll just wrap up by saying. If you do get married, would you and your spouse be able to want and love a child that is on its way? Not interfering in God’s plan but trusting him to know when to bless you? If you can trust in God and be open to children, I see know reason you could not marry. If you feel you could never accept a child, then you should probably not marry.

Yeah you do make a point that those of us who donlt have kids probably just see all the negatives people who are parents have to go through. I get your point about your dog too. But I just think there is a pretty big difference between loving your dog despite the negatives and loving a child. Because maybe I am wrong but it just seems that the negatives of dealing with a child and children would potentially just be much worse then most things you go through with a dog or any pet.