If you had faith the size of a mustard seed

[YADA]

Jesus was using contrast between the mustard seed [the smallest seed] with the Mulberry tree [whose root system is strong [COLOR=“red”]much stronger than other trees in the region] to illustrate a point he was making to the Apostles - who asked for increased faith … they did not need more faith - they just needed to have** faith.

The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith.”
The Lord replied, “If you have faith the size of a mustard seed,
you would say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.

We are like the Apostles - its human nature - … we see someone and think - if I only had the faith that they have then I could, would be able to do X, Y or Z …

"If I had the faith of St Francis, St Mother Teresa, then I would be able make a difference in this world, I could live simply or serve the poor …but … "

Jesus is telling us it is not the QUANTITY of our faith that matters - its the QUALITY of faith that matters. We need to believe in Him, to trust in Him.

 

[jcrichton]

There’s a question for you: what’s the half-life of faith?

‘I believe, just in case God exists.’

I’ve met people who actually think that they can manipulate the outcome: a) claim Faith in case that God does exists (which by definition is not actually Faith in God); b) wait to convert when they reach old age (aside from God not being taken in by empty praises, heart and mind there’s that “X” factor of life: once born there’s only one guarantee–physical death [yet, even that is not absolute since the Parousia can occur at any given time which means some of us will be alive when the change ocurs]) or c) wait till the moment of death to repent (again, the “X” factor: death can come in the form of a long-suffered illness or at the end of a long-lived life or fast as lightning).

…oh, Simon (the magician/sorcerer: Acts 8:18) demonstrated that half-life of Faith when he asked that the Apostles give him the Holy Spirit so that he could include it in his gigs. Simon understood that something marvelous had happened but he rejected God’s Plan in preference of his own.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, and I thought Christ paid that price. He did the pain so I wouldn’t have to. Or is John 3:16 not what I think it is?

Hi, Bob!
I think that you are confusing the Rock with the rock… Jesus’ pain was for all of humanity, from Creation to Judgment Day, and inclusive of all sin.

Yet, personal pain must be endured. Remember the wealthy young man? His testimony was that he was a very devote Believer who had adhered to the Commandments from his childhood. After commending him Jesus upped the ante: “give what you have to the poor;” then Jesus upped the already upped ante: “follow Me.”

…that young man felt the pain!

…that young man rejected Jesus’ Call.

Jesus foretold His Disciples that if they Believed and Followed Him the world would persecute them, put then imprison, and some would even kill them believing that they were doing God’s job–then there’s that pain that all must suffer as He states that “I did not come to bring peace but war;” and that "where there are two gathered one will be taken the other left (inclusive of both the public/private life of the Believers). Can you not imagine the pain of a Christian whose child rejects God and joins the world or some sort of Satanic cult?

So yes, Christ paid our ransom once and for all. But Faith in Jesus comes at a price! Some of us continue to choose ourselves (the world and all its entrapments) rather than suffer anything for God… check out the Apostles’ experience:

9 For it seems to me that God has put us** apostles **on display at the end of the procession, like those condemned to die in the arena. We have been **made a spectacle to the whole universe, to angels as well as to human beings. 10 We are fools for Christ, but you are so wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are honored, we are dishonored! 11 To this very hour we go hungry and thirsty, we are in rags, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. 12 We work hard with our own hands. When we are cursed, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; 13 when we are slandered, we answer kindly. We have become the scum of the earth, the garbage **of the world—right up to this moment. (1 Corinthians 4:9-13)

…we must endure the pain and suffering in Christ Jesus (St. Paul’s ‘work out your Salvation in fear and trembling…’).

I believe faith is the 7th sense, which is a gift from God, a sense of knowing God (i.e. you know him personally and his personality). Not something that can be “exercised”

The rest of your answer is basically pulling a Nike and “just do it”

…again, you are confusing Rock with rock; Nike’s is about self-sufficiency and self-gratification–have you noticed that none of the commercials (most shows and movies for that matter) ever portray personal responsibility? They are all about ego stroking: “feel good,” “do what you will,” “you’re the it,” “everyone will love it/you (those who don’t are haters).”

What I propose to you predates and simultaneously supersedes Nike since what I propose is that we seek to commune with God even when we lack the means/ability to do so. We must depend upon God and not our own knowledge/capabilities.

The problem is that I don’t now God well enough to trust him in all areas of my life. I can trust him with spiritual things, but temporal things he lets me down. For example, I’m unable to keep a steady job, nor am able to earn money regularly. But I have bills to pay, and a family to take care of, seems God doesn’t care about my temporal things. So how do I trust God in temporal things? I can’t. He let me down too many times.

This is where Faith comes in. Knowing or having something does not demonstrate Faith. I understand that it is difficult for you (anyone who does not have a source of income) but have you considered that money is not everything. Check out the news–most of us dream of having money and the approval of society; however, those who do squander it as they debase themselves and immerse themselves in extravagant and empty lifestyles. So clearly money is not all. I took care of Mom during her last years… without money, job, family assistance, and the bear necessities from the gov.; when things got worse (meds. power, phone… cut off; food assistance terminated; eviction notice…) something would happen–Mom never went without food, meds. or homeless!

I often wandered why God would allow such a devoted and loving woman to experience such harsh reality. Mom never complaint! She would tell me that we are in God’s Hands!

Her Faith never ceased nor stumbled!

I wish I had a better answer for you or that I had the means to provide you with gainful employment or even a huge grant… I am struggling in a similar situation–going from day-job to day-job; having just enough money to pay the rent, though at times having a little more/less.

I will pray for you and your family!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

Hi, Bob!
Remember the wealthy young man? His testimony was that he was a very devote Believer who had adhered to the Commandments from his childhood. After commending him Jesus upped the ante: “give what you have to the poor;” then Jesus upped the already upped ante: “follow Me.”

…that young man felt the pain!

…that young man rejected Jesus’ Call.

Actually Christ rejected him because he was rich. Christ demanded he give up all wealth, because he thinks that wealth is evil.

Under that standard, a married man who has to earn money to support his family is pretty much dead meat and cannot follow Christ.

I must find a loophole, something where I can have money for necessities and still be able to follow Christ. I can’t give up everything, that is impossible in my vocation.

So yes, Christ paid our ransom once and for all.

But he didn’t cover the temporal price. We are still held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam, Eve and our ancestors.

But Faith in Jesus comes at a price!

So faith is not a gift from God that is free. That there Bible must be wrong. Looks like God loves conditionally, at a price only.

What I propose to you predates and simultaneously supersedes Nike since what I propose is that we seek to commune with God even when we lack the means/ability to do so. We must depend upon God and not our own knowledge/capabilities.

Every attempt I’ve made to get closer to God has failed, so there’s no way to commune with God for me.

This is where Faith comes in. Knowing or having something does not demonstrate Faith.

Suppose I know my friend A. He has a particular personality. Someone badmouths A saying that A did something. I know he wouldn’t do that because that’s now how he is, it runs contrary to his personality.

I have faith in A that he is not like that, because I know him.

God is the same way. If I don’t know God I can’t have faith.

I understand that it is difficult for you (anyone who does not have a source of income) but have you considered that money is not everything.

I’m a married man who has a wife and special needs kid to support. Clearly I’m a second class citizen in the kingdom of God and my need for income is an evil thing, but I still need the income.

God is exempt from the laws of economics, and does not understand why people need money.

 

[jcrichton]

Actually Christ rejected him because he was rich. Christ demanded he give up all wealth, because he thinks that wealth is evil.

Under that standard, a married man who has to earn money to support his family is pretty much dead meat and cannot follow Christ.

I must find a loophole, something where I can have money for necessities and still be able to follow Christ. I can’t give up everything, that is impossible in my vocation.

No, and no. Christ believes that the root of evil is the love of money. The loophole you are looking for is Trust Christ! The more you doubt and reject Him the less He can assist you!

But he didn’t cover the temporal price. We are still held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam, Eve and our ancestors.

Exactly, that is why the world is not perfect… that’s why bad things happen to Believers.

So faith is not a gift from God that is free. That there Bible must be wrong. Looks like God loves conditionally, at a price only.

…Christ initiates and consummates Faith–Given freely; however, Faith is a two-way street; man cannot just jump on the rollercoaster and glide into God’s Heart! As precious metals (stones, etc.) need to be purified so must man be purified; so there’s a price to pay for our Faith–the greatest of them being our ego; we must relent from our self-reliance and determination and humbly submit to God’s Will.

Every attempt I’ve made to get closer to God has failed, so there’s no way to commune with God for me.

Suppose I know my friend A. He has a particular personality. Someone badmouths A saying that A did something. I know he wouldn’t do that because that’s now how he is, it runs contrary to his personality.

I have faith in A that he is not like that, because I know him.

God is the same way. If I don’t know God I can’t have faith.

…have you tried letting God get closer to you? From your language I feel you are scorned; possibly you demand that God demonstrate Himself (Fellowship) to you by providing you with visual proof (health, wealth, happiness…); devoid of such proof you’ve concluded that God has rejected you (or something deeper, perhaps).

I’m a married man who has a wife and special needs kid to support. Clearly I’m a second class citizen in the kingdom of God and my need for income is an evil thing, but I still need the income.

God is exempt from the laws of economics, and does not understand why people need money.

…this is the language I am talking about… If I were, say, person A and your view of me would be as you’ve described above I would certainly have a hard time coming near you–I would have to rob a few banks, launder the money, put it on a duffle bag, and sneak it into your house/apartment with a note: “here, you see, I am not what you think…”

…in that process I would have rendered our affiliation mute since you will only acknowledge me the next time I rob more banks, launder more money, and sneak the money into your possession without even bothering you for the time of day…

…you would not have faith in me; you would only have expectations; the second I fail to fulfill your expectations I would cease to exist for you.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[japhy]

No, we are not “held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam, Eve and our ancestors”. We are in NO WAY responsible for the sins of our ancestors, even Adam and Eve. We may suffer because of their sins, but we are NOT responsible for those sins.

 

[BobCatholic]

No, we are not “held temporally responsible for the sins of Adam, Eve and our ancestors”. We are in NO WAY responsible for the sins of our ancestors, even Adam and Eve. We may suffer because of their sins, but we are NOT responsible for those sins.

I didn’t say we are responsible for the sins of our ancestors. In that way, I agree with you.

But we are held temporally responsible for the sins of our ancestors. And here’s the proof.

Please tell me which airline has flights to the Garden of Eden. None.
Please tell me which bus company has routes to the Garden of Eden. None.
Please tell me the location of the Garden of Eden. Nobody knows.

So, since we are also not allowed in the Garden of Eden because of Adam and Eve’s sins, we are held temporally responsible for their sin.

 

[BobCatholic]

No, and no. Christ believes that the root of evil is the love of money. The loophole you are looking for is Trust Christ! The more you doubt and reject Him the less He can assist you!.

I trust Christ implicitly and 100% with spiritual things. He never let me down.

With temporal things, however, I keep getting let down over and over and over. I’m supposed to trust someone in an area they don’t want to help with? Hello?

Faith is a two-way street; man cannot just jump on the rollercoaster and glide into God’s Heart!

So there are conditions to the grace, so it is no longer a free gift as the Bible says. I have to do something to get and keep it.

As precious metals (stones, etc.) need to be purified so must man be purified;

So why weren’t we created perfect so we would not have to be purfied? Imperfections are evil things that God punishes us with suffering for.

…have you tried letting God get closer to you?

I’ve done a lot of things to get closer to God. Nothing worked.

From your language I feel you are scorned; possibly you demand that God demonstrate Himself (Fellowship) to you by providing you with visual proof (health, wealth, happiness…); devoid of such proof you’ve concluded that God has rejected you (or something deeper, perhaps).

No. I’d like to be protected from evil so I don’t fall into the evil on’es hands. Is that too much to ask? Of course it is, God says no.

…this is the language I am talking about… If I were, say, person A and your view of me would be as you’ve described above I would certainly have a hard time coming near you–I would have to rob a few banks, launder the money, put it on a duffle bag, and sneak it into your house/apartment with a note: “here, you see, I am not what you think…”

God would not have to rob banks, he could simply protect me from evil. He would have to do no evil. Unless protecting me from evil is evil in itself.

…you would not have faith in me; you would only have expectations; the second I fail to fulfill your expectations I would cease to exist for you.

Atheism is not an option for me. I know God exists, beyond all doubt. What I doubt is whether he actually loves me in the temporal sphere, or only in the spiritual sphere. Clearly it is only the spiritual sphere. The temporal one, he’s absent.

I don’t want to be a Deist. I want to have a personal relationship with God so I can understand why he refuses to protect me from evil.

 

[jcrichton]

I trust Christ implicitly and 100% with spiritual things. He never let me down.

With temporal things, however, I keep getting let down over and over and over. I’m supposed to trust someone in an area they don’t want to help with? Hello?

…but that’s just it–you do not trust Christ implicitly and 100% if you believe that you are being let down by God because of difficulties. If you trust that God will provide for you-even when it is only “our daily bread,” you would find that many others are also going through similar situations–those who do trust God 100% are few but the greater our trust in Him the better we can understand and transcend our experiences.

So there are conditions to the grace, so it is no longer a free gift as the Bible says. I have to do something to get and keep it.

Grace is free but we must engage God at His Planned Level (St. John 3:16-21).

So why weren’t we created perfect so we would not have to be purfied? Imperfections are evil things that God punishes us with suffering for.

…there was once a guy named Adam…

I’ve done a lot of things to get closer to God. Nothing worked.

…are you sure? …check your ending thought–Christ is the Author and Perfecter of Faith, you, my friend, are bound to Him… even when it seems that you and your family are traveling alone… He is with you!

No. I’d like to be protected from evil so I don’t fall into the evil on’es hands. Is that too much to ask? Of course it is, God says no.

God would not have to rob banks, he could simply protect me from evil. He would have to do no evil. Unless protecting me from evil is evil in itself.

…again, demonstrative faith is not Faith. I once prayed for a woman in a coma–my prayer was not that she gained her health but that if it were God’s Will that the Holy Spirit convicted her and Saved her (of course the temporal desire of her health was also there…); as I was reading Sacred Scriptures she awoke from the coma; though she never returned to her home, I was assured of God’s Salvific Plan.

Temporal gains do not always coincide with individual Faith or relationship with God. Sometimes temporal gains are minute-God’s Might is not always demonstrated by grand happenings but through simple and minuscule events (as God’s demonstration to Elijah: 1 Kings 19:913).

Atheism is not an option for me. I know God exists, beyond all doubt. What I doubt is whether he actually loves me in the temporal sphere, or only in the spiritual sphere. Clearly it is only the spiritual sphere. The temporal one, he’s absent.

I don’t want to be a Deist. I want to have a personal relationship with God so I can understand why he refuses to protect me from evil.

…I too would that God would use me for great purposes… alas, I can only wonder why I have such yearnings (without fruition) and why I have the abilities and qualities I have (without able to capitalize on them)–I feel as that joker from the old Movie “Mozart” (he could identify greatness yet he was painfully cognizant of his mediocrity, be comparison).

Please don’t give up HOPE!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

…but that’s just it–you do not trust Christ implicitly and 100% if you believe that you are being let down by God because of difficulties.

That’s because God behaves differently when it comes to temporal things versus spiritual things. Dependable and trustworthy in the latter, undependable in the former.

I got the message loud and clear. The spiritual is so far important, that God doesn’t care about the temporal.

If you trust that God will provide for you-even when it is only “our daily bread,”

“Daily bread”? In the Vulgate, translated as “supersubstantial bread” - which is the Eucharist - supernatural bread.

God has zero obligation to provide us with temporal needs. He knows this. That’s why I can’t keep a steady job.

you would find that many others are also going through similar situations

So what? I don’t take comfort or joy in other people’s sufferings, I’m not a sadist.

Grace is free but we must engage God at His Planned Level (St. John 3:16-21).

Free means free. No obligations. The minute there is an obligation to get the free stuff, it is no longer free.

I hate those “FREE just pay this exorbitant processing and handling fee” ads.

…there was once a guy named Adam…

Who was imperfect. Either he had pride, naivete or was just plain stupid.

…are you sure?

Yes, 100% sure.

…again, demonstrative faith is not Faith. I once prayed for a woman in a coma–my prayer was not that she gained her health but that if it were God’s Will that the Holy Spirit convicted her and Saved her (of course the temporal desire of her health was also there…); as I was reading Sacred Scriptures she awoke from the coma; though she never returned to her home, I was assured of God’s Salvific Plan.

It is great God gives you communications of a supernatural nature, because you have a personal relationship with him. I only have a corporate relationship and a personal relationship is a goal that I can’t fulfill.

Temporal gains do not always coincide with individual Faith or relationship with God. Sometimes temporal gains are minute-God’s Might is not always demonstrated by grand happenings but through simple and minuscule events (as God’s demonstration to Elijah: 1 Kings 19:913).

Well, being able to keep a decent paying job would be a nice “minuscule event” but that’s not happening.

There is no hope for temporal things.

 

[jcrichton]

That’s because God behaves differently when it comes to temporal things versus spiritual things. Dependable and trustworthy in the latter, undependable in the former.

I got the message loud and clear. The spiritual is so far important, that God doesn’t care about the temporal.

 

[BobCatholic]

Hi, Bob!
…so you are calling Christ a liar? It is He Who speaks for the Father and guarantees that the Father will provide (no not just the supersubstantial bread–too many times zealousness forces even the most well-meaning devote people to* reach *in their exegesis):

I don’t call Christ a liar. Are you preaching the “health and wealth” gospel of Joel Olsteen and other megachurch preachers?

There is zero guarantee that God will take care of all my temporal needs. If there was, I’d have to accuse God of failing many many many times in my life to provide. I can’t do that, so therefore there is no promise.

We only have the cross guaranteed in this temporal existence, nothing more.

…no, not comfort/joy–perspective; you are not the only person in the world to be troubled by your relationship with God nor is your family the only family in the world suffering through unimaginable (as, must be experienced to understand it) pain and suffering.

Again, I take no comfort or joy in knowing others have their own cross. My cross is too heavy for me to look at other people’s crosses.

Once God offered them He never took them back nor accepted anything in exchange (there’s nothing we could offer Him anyway!); yet, Fellowship with God demands, well… Fellowship with God!

I want fellowship. But that does not mean I am now required to pay a price (since Christ paid the price in full). God’s grace is a free gift.

Imagine a friend who charges you money (or requires favors of other kinds) to talk to him or be with him, what kind of friendship is that? Not a true one. God doesn’t work that way.

He was Created in perfection (Spiritual)–just as the angels. His error was in exercising his free will to choose to disobey God and to choose to obey the creature!

No, both of them were created imperfect. Choose which one or more imperfections both Adam and Eve had:

• Stupidity - seriously, they had paradise, a personal relationship with God and they sinned purposely. How incredibly stupid were they! They blew it! Blew it!!!
• Naivete. They believe anything anyone tells them, even if it contradicts something someone else said before. Snake says something that contradicts God, they believe it, no thinking.
• Pride - they though that they knew better than God

There’s nothing that we can do to compel God to engage in such relationship.

Correct, that’s why I can’t get a personal relationship with God, I can only have a corporate one.

a minuscule event would be more in the vicinity of being able to work for a couple of days to catch up to paying the rent/bills/meds/food…

Compared to infinity, a steady career is a minuscule event.

Hope cannot flourish if we feed hope with doubt–doubting God and demanding that He demonstrate His Omnipotence, Omniscience, Mercy, Love, Salvation or Loyalty by rendering concrete proof (“do x thing”) is tantamount to Jesus’ temptation in the desert: “if you are… show me!”

Sigh.

I trust God implicitly when it comes to spiritual things. He has never let me down there.
I don’t trust God when it comes to temporal things because he keeps letting me down there.

If you claim that God made a promise to always provide for all our needs, then he has broken that promise many times in my life, with my inability to keep a steady job, and unwillingness to protect me from evil.

I believe God does not lie, and does not make promises he won’t keep. He did not promise to take care of our temporal needs. He only does so if he wills it. God is limited by his will.

The only thing God has guaranteed in this temporal existence is the cross. Nothing else.

For spiritual things, that’s different. He made promises in that area and kept them.

 

[jcrichton]

I don’t call Christ a liar. Are you preaching the “health and wealth” gospel of Joel Olsteen and other megachurch preachers?

…not a shopaholic; don’t follow trends, either; “keys,” “schemes” or “hidden knowledge” is not part of my Catholicity.

There is zero guarantee that God will take care of all my temporal needs. If there was, I’d have to accuse God of failing many many many times in my life to provide. I can’t do that, so therefore there is no promise.

I think you are confusing the issues; I am not claiming that God is responsible to provide for the Believers; rather, I am stating Jesus’ revelation that the Father will provide our daily bread (material needs) as well as our spiritual sustenance. Yet this is not done through some decoding, but it is built-in!

I cannot speak on your experience; only a person who lives your experience can (though there are no two people who engage in such duality since we all possess individual traits and response mechanisms); I am asking you to rethink your perspective. Though your experience could be immeasurably better (wealth, health, endless joy and happiness), it is inarguably an experience that you and your family have been surviving (as in not succumbing to dread and hopelessness)… and, though you’ve been limping, nay, crawling through these years… have you considered where your family gets the strength to face the daily task of existence? I can only speculate that your financial situation keeps you from rubbing two pennies together… but have you not have moments where, when at your most difficult and exasperating time, Divine Providence has kept you from submerging? (I speak on my own life’s experiences.)

We only have the cross guaranteed in this temporal existence, nothing more.

Again, I take no comfort or joy in knowing others have their own cross. My cross is too heavy for me to look at other people’s crosses.

I want fellowship. But that does not mean I am now required to pay a price (since Christ paid the price in full). God’s grace is a free gift.

Imagine a friend who charges you money (or requires favors of other kinds) to talk to him or be with him, what kind of friendship is that? Not a true one. God doesn’t work that way.

…actually, Jesus does not guarantees us the cross; He actually expects us to take on our daily cross and follow Him… here’s where that “no pain” comes into play. We have the choice to take the pain of our existence and offer it up to God in Jesus Christ or we can opt for the choice to reject God, reject the cross, and pass on the “pain/gain.” Clearly, the path that lead to damnation is wide and many follow its course–still, for these there is also pain… though this pain is both destructive and void of any Salvific element.

…it is God’s Grace that keeps us from submerging; it is our Fellowship with Christ that allows our material being to be strengthened beyond the constrains of the physicality.

But we must remain humble. We must seek to know God with the assurance that He is there for us–there’s no limit to our relationship with God… other than that which we pose on it! I wish I were Peter… yet, if I had been, would I have Served Christ and myself better then Peter or then myself? So God’s choice of Cephas rather than Angel should not be a factor in my relationship with Him!

I do not doubt God’s Will or Willingness… I only doubt my loyalty, consistency, and perseverance!

No, both of them were created imperfect. Choose which one or more imperfections both Adam and Eve had:

• Stupidity - seriously, they had paradise, a personal relationship with God and they sinned purposely. How incredibly stupid were they! They blew it! Blew it!!!

• Naivete. They believe anything anyone tells them, even if it contradicts something someone else said before. Snake says something that contradicts God, they believe it, no thinking.

• Pride - they though that they knew better than God

…I can only surmise that you equate perfection (which to me means without blemish) with Divinity; Adam, Eve and Satan were not Divine, though they did exist in a state of cleanliness (perfection) till their ego overwrote it.

Correct, that’s why I can’t get a personal relationship with God, I can only have a corporate one.

Compared to infinity, a steady career is a minuscule event.

Sigh.

I trust God implicitly when it comes to spiritual things. He has never let me down there.
I don’t trust God when it comes to temporal things because he keeps letting me down there.

If you claim that God made a promise to always provide for all our needs, then he has broken that promise many times in my life, with my inability to keep a steady job, and unwillingness to protect me from evil.

I believe God does not lie, and does not make promises he won’t keep. He did not promise to take care of our temporal needs. He only does so if he wills it. God is limited by his will.

The only thing God has guaranteed in this temporal existence is the cross. Nothing else.

For spiritual things, that’s different. He made promises in that area and kept them.

…this is what I mean… your perspective is tied to two conflicting convictions: you trust and have faith in God vs. you cannot trust nor have faith in God.

…this is referred to as being double minded (please read St. James 1); it is why I ask that you should check/change your perspective… we can count on God to assist us both in the temporal and spiritual realms… but we must humbly live out our experiences… thinking that God does not care or will not Will Himself to assist us in our temporal needs is not keeping with the Faithfulness of Jesus’ Humble Disciples.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

I am stating Jesus’ revelation that the Father will provide our daily bread (material needs) as well as our spiritual sustenance.

Spiritual sustenance, yes. That’s guaranteed. Temporal? No.

The “daily bread” in the Our Father refers to the Eucharist, Douay-Rheims has it translated as “supersubstantial” - that’s supernatural, not temporal.

The Father did not promise to take care of our temporal needs.

have you considered where your family gets the strength to face the daily task of existence?

I don’t have that strength, I keep falling.

I can only speculate that your financial situation keeps you from rubbing two pennies together… but have you not have moments where, when at your most difficult and exasperating time, Divine Providence has kept you from submerging? (I speak on my own life’s experiences.)

Nope. All I have is a precarious existence. Nothing more.

…actually, Jesus does not guarantees us the cross;

He does. Clearly you haven’t read the part where “is the servant greater than the master?” when it comes to the cross. There is no choice. Resistance is futile.

We have the choice to take the pain of our existence and offer it up to God in Jesus Christ or we can opt for the choice to reject God, reject the cross, and pass on the “pain/gain.” Clearly, the path that lead to damnation is wide and many follow its course–still, for these there is also pain… though this pain is both destructive and void of any Salvific element.

Agreed here. To go to heaven, it requires horrific and terrible suffering. To go to hell, just exist. God’s grace is so fragile and easily lost. It is a paper shield. At least there’s superabundance of paper shields.

…it is God’s Grace that keeps us from submerging;

It is God’s grace that keeps us from falling, but when we fall, it is clearly God’s grace not present.

there’s no limit to our relationship with God…

It is limited by his will. I have attempted many times to get closer to God and failed. The best I can hope for is a corporate relationship with God, nothing more. This is his will for me.

…I can only surmise that you equate perfection (which to me means without blemish) with Divinity;

No.

Mary was created perfect, remained perfect and is humanity’s solitary boast. She is not divine. She was the ONLY perfect human on earth. The saints are perfect, they’re not divine. The angels are perfect, they’re not divine.

You notice what all of them have in common? They’re with God now.

Adam, Eve and Satan were not Divine, though they did exist in a state of cleanliness (perfection) till their ego overwrote it.

So you admit they had the imperfection of pride.

…this is what I mean… your perspective is tied to two conflicting convictions: you trust and have faith in God vs. you cannot trust nor have faith in God.

This is not a conflicting conviction.

If God has promised to take care of our temporal needs (which he hasn’t) then I could trust him in that area.

If God had never let me down in in the temporal area, and I had a steady job, I could trust him more in that area.

How can I trust someone in an area they never promised to take care of? I read the lives of the saints, they endured poverty illness, great suffering…their temporal needs were clearly not taken care of. If for these holy people, God would not take care of their temporal needs, why would he bother to take care of my temporal needs when I’m light years away from being a saint?

God didn’t promise to take care of our temporal needs. If he did, he broke his promise and is untrustworthy in that area and all the spiritual promises are questionable as well.

 

[jcrichton]

Spiritual sustenance, yes. That’s guaranteed. Temporal? No.

The “daily bread” in the Our Father refers to the Eucharist, Douay-Rheims has it translated as “supersubstantial” - that’s supernatural, not temporal.

The Father did not promise to take care of our temporal needs.

I don’t have that strength, I keep falling.

Nope. All I have is a precarious existence. Nothing more.

He does. Clearly you haven’t read the part where “is the servant greater than the master?” when it comes to the cross. There is no choice. Resistance is futile.

Agreed here. To go to heaven, it requires horrific and terrible suffering. To go to hell, just exist. God’s grace is so fragile and easily lost. It is a paper shield. At least there’s superabundance of paper shields.

It is God’s grace that keeps us from falling, but when we fall, it is clearly God’s grace not present.

It is limited by his will. I have attempted many times to get closer to God and failed. The best I can hope for is a corporate relationship with God, nothing more. This is his will for me.

No.

Mary was created perfect, remained perfect and is humanity’s solitary boast. She is not divine. She was the ONLY perfect human on earth. The saints are perfect, they’re not divine. The angels are perfect, they’re not divine.

You notice what all of them have in common? They’re with God now.

So you admit they had the imperfection of pride.

This is not a conflicting conviction.

If God has promised to take care of our temporal needs (which he hasn’t) then I could trust him in that area.

If God had never let me down in in the temporal area, and I had a steady job, I could trust him more in that area.

How can I trust someone in an area they never promised to take care of? I read the lives of the saints, they endured poverty illness, great suffering…their temporal needs were clearly not taken care of. If for these holy people, God would not take care of their temporal needs, why would he bother to take care of my temporal needs when I’m light years away from being a saint?

God didn’t promise to take care of our temporal needs. If he did, he broke his promise and is untrustworthy in that area and all the spiritual promises are questionable as well.

Hi, Bob!
…I think we are coming to the end of this exchange… clearly, no amount of prodding will urge you to change your understanding… you open up small windows but behind them you’ve erected brick walls… the Saints… did you know that some of them left the affluence of their families in order to embrace serving the Lord? God Calls us from different paths and stages… but the Call is always the same: Trust in Me.

It is this Trust that I wanted you toconvert… Mom was so poor that she could not get a Holy Rosary from the Missionary Priests (by the time they made it to her end of the world they had nothing to distribute). At the age of six her Faith moved her to create her own Rosary from the seeds of some tree by the river bed… when next the Missionary Priest arrived at her end of the woods, she got it Blessed–it became a Holy Rosary! Regardless of her life-long toils her Faith never ceased/diminished!

Towards the end of her life, I was caring for her with only the assistance of a home-health aide that would come for two hours (M-F); there were months when there was very little food available to us (I made sure Mom never went hungry). There were times when her meds were terminated (each prescription cost between $200 to $400) and there was no money (she was fully dependent and could not be left alone)… Mom never went without her meds; there would always be a way (one particular time the need arose right after tax returns–I got a lump sum from a Eucharist Minister…); her confidence in God never wavered!

True, we never gained financial freedom–no security blanket for me! Yet, I am able to survive. I am able to assist others, even in my meager existence!

I hope you stop seeing God as a distant and uncaring overlord.

I hope that you/ll discover that God is not your proprietor but your Father.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BobCatholic]

I hope you stop seeing God as a distant and uncaring overlord.

When you posted your testimony of suffering, that confirms my belief that God never promised us temporal provisions. The only thing God promised in this life is the cross.

It is impossible to trust implicitly someone who I don’t know, who I want to know, who refuses to get closer to me despite my best efforts. This needs an infusion of grace, and unless God provides it, game over.

I want to be a Catholic, not a deist. Unfortunately, I’m split. My spiritual experience confirms the former, my temporal experience confirms the latter.

 

[puzzledtoo]

“…who refuses to get closer to me despite my best efforts.” I believe this is false. If we feel there is no closeness between the divine and us it is on us. We are too distracted and caught up in the culture to experience just how close we really are at all times. As for the temporal sometimes our situation is in our hands sometimes not.

 

[BobCatholic]

“…who refuses to get closer to me despite my best efforts.” I believe this is false. If we feel there is no closeness between the divine and us it is on us.

Yup. It is always my fault. God creates me imperfect, I do my best despite the imperfections and still fail, and it is still my fault.

God has all power but no responsibility. He chooses on his own will, to stay away, and it must be my fault. He made the choice, but it is my fault.

God places conditions on his love and I can’t meet those conditions because I’m imperfect.

 

[jcrichton]

When you posted your testimony of suffering, that confirms my belief that God never promised us temporal provisions. The only thing God promised in this life is the cross.

It is impossible to trust implicitly someone who I don’t know, who I want to know, who refuses to get closer to me despite my best efforts. This needs an infusion of grace, and unless God provides it, game over.

I want to be a Catholic, not a deist. Unfortunately, I’m split. My spiritual experience confirms the former, my temporal experience confirms the latter.

Exactly my point… duality will get us only as far as confusion… my suffering could have been greater had Providence not acted. It is that which I hoped you would take from my testimony.

I cannot say that I know/understand God any more than anyone else… but I’ve learned that Trusting God cannot be compartmentalized (I trust you with my “x” but not with my “y”). Also, I’ve learned that it is not necessary for me to fully know God–what is important is that God knows me.

My Trust must be based not on what I know or want to know but on what God is: Abba.

Knowing that He is my Father, I rely on His Abilities rather than my own–searching my life’s experience through that understanding allows me to not get caught up in placing God and me in a duality.

I hope this helps!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Eliza10]

I would guess that nearly everybody on here has heard that passage at some point. I would also venture more so because it was part of the Gospel reading this past Sunday. I feel as though I’ve never understood this sentence, what He is trying to say there. Do we really have the power to do this that would go far beyond what we, as humans, can normally do, things that would seemingly go beyond the laws of the universe, if we had such faith as that? Or is He saying we really don’t have faith like that? Does God work as such? Where does faith really come from?

To me it has always meant that it only takes the tiniest amount of faith for us to reach God. We don’t have to worry about having “more” for Him to hear us. Sometimes when we have been far from God, compared to those heady times when we have been close, it can feel as if we don’t have enough faith so why even try to call out to Him? When this has happened to me I remember that all the faith we need, compared to the size of our whole body, is as much faith as a mustard’s seed-size. I always realize I have at least that much in there - no problem with that, so, my “obstacle” is *never *not having enough faith. According to God’s calculations, I have enough to reach Him.

Once when I was newly divorced and struggling with practical challenges of being a single Mom, I was very worried about future events - where we would live, how I would afford to live, where my son would go to school. I knew God would take care of me, but the anxiety welling up inside was making it hard to focus on day to day tasks and decisions to make. I kept trying to make the anxiety go away, because Jesus says always, “Be not anxious.” But why wouldn’t it go away? I *knew *that I had enough faith. That was not the problem. Then, I remembered the Divine Mercy Sunday Mass I had been to a month or two before, and gazing at the picture of Jesus. That was it! It wasn’t faith I needed (as I knew) - it was trust. Sometimes that’s the “more” that we need, and that’s what I needed. I took out my little Divine Mercy card and gazed at that picture and affirmed those words. “I trust in You”, and asked and trusted Jesus to give me the grace to trust more. And He gave me that grace, and His peace that passes all understanding.

So I think we were told those words about the mustard seed because faith is such a vital spiritual key, and its probably natural for us to worry we don’t have enough of that key ingredient. Compared to the size of your whole body, you only need enough faith* that size.* And in the worst of times, you certainly have that much, I am sure, so there is no need to ever feel we have not enough.