...if you had the chance to create your mother, would you make her immaculate?

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I’ve read both versions of this post and am still unclear.

Are you suggesting that the sinlessness of Jesus is somehow caused by the IC?
No. All I am saying is that He did not need His mother to be immaculate. As a matter of fact, how could He have been raised like everybody else and be just like any other man, but without sin, if His parents had been perfect?

PS: I didn’t realize it, but I just translated part of the German 4th Anaphora when I said that He was like man in everything, but sin.

PPS: I found it in the Eucharistic prayer n. 4
“…a man like us in all things but sin.”
 
No. All I am saying is that He did not need His mother to be immaculate. As a matter of fact, how could He have been raised like everybody else and be just like any other man, but without sin, if His parents had been perfect?
Thanks for clearing that up, but even if Mary isn’t sinless, the other “parent” is.
 
Hey Mark…
You must be reading Hail Holy Queen by Scott Hahn.

If so, did you catch the part at the beginning of the book (while he was still Presbyterian), he inadvertently prays for his dead Grandmother?
I have not read his book yet. His conversion story is a pretty good one and he is really well informed as well.

A former protestant praying for the dead; can you say irony… 😃
 
I’ve read both versions of this post and am still unclear.

Are you suggesting that the sinlessness of Jesus is somehow caused by the IC?
No. God is the cause of her IC. She, as the CC teaches, was preserved from original sin, and, she too is saved by the blood of the lamb.
 
I don’t think He would…
If I had a chance to create my mother and the point would be that I was to lead a life and be tempted like everybody else but to be without sin and not give in to temptation, then I wouldn’t make my mother immaculate.
Interesting perspective. 👍
 
Interesting perspective. 👍
I am puzzled that some people just don’t seem to ‘get it.’

This isn’t about Jesus being ‘unfair’ or offering ‘unfair advantage.’

This isn’t about Jesus ‘having to have’ His mother immaculate.

This isn’t about how He doesn’t ‘need’ to have Mary immaculate, or how it somehow ‘lessens’ Him if she is supposedly ‘exalted’ beyond any of the rest of us human slobs.

Do **none **of you actually love your mothers? Am I the only person who sees Christ’s redemption of His mother before her conception and birth as being an act of LOVE?

Am I the only person who isn’t throwing a nutty that the mother of the Redeemer is loved by her Son from the very beginning?

The only person who doesn’t think that it’s a false egalitarianism to try to lump all humans as being too ‘rotten’ for Christ to allow one of them to be born ‘sinless’ (how 'partial of Him, therefore how ‘sinful’ of Him, therefore it just couldn’t happen), yet insist that Christ ‘would have gotten along just great with a slobby sinful mother like the rest of us?’ How dare Christ get a ‘perfect’ mom when we have to deal with our lousy ones, no, He must have had an impure, thoughtless, sin-filled ‘normal’ mom so that he really **is ‘**just like us.’

We’ve taken the ‘man like us’ part so far that we forget the Divinity. We insist on holding God ‘down’ and making Him conform to our standards, our own limited and stingy notions of ‘justice’ and ‘right.’ We won’t ‘let’ Him have ways that are ‘above’ our ways. We are so greedy for our own place in the cosmos that we won’t allow anyone, not God Himself or His Mother, to have what we in our tiny fallible prejudiced little minds ‘feel’ is an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE over the rest of us. Wah wah wah.
 
Do **none **of you actually love your mothers? Am I the only person who sees Christ’s redemption of His mother before her conception and birth as being an act of LOVE?
I love my mother. I love her very much.
I know she isn’t perfect. As a matter of fact I end up having to correct some of the mistakes she makes once in a while, because I have the means to do so. And sometimes I even have to help her in a way that she can’t misuse for something non-essential.
I however love her very very much. I share a very deep bond with my mother even though my own character is more like my father’s (and the two don’t even talk to each other).
I love my mother so much, I would die for her.
So what is the point?

By the way… I don’t mean to be rash or anything like that, but all that Joe said was that my perspective is interesting. He didn’t say that he agreed with me.
He is a Catholic just like you. Of course he has a different perspective than I have.
 
I am puzzled that some people just don’t seem to ‘get it.’

This isn’t about Jesus being ‘unfair’ or offering ‘unfair advantage.’

This isn’t about Jesus ‘having to have’ His mother immaculate.

This isn’t about how He doesn’t ‘need’ to have Mary immaculate, or how it somehow ‘lessens’ Him if she is supposedly ‘exalted’ beyond any of the rest of us human slobs.

Do **none **of you actually love your mothers? Am I the only person who sees Christ’s redemption of His mother before her conception and birth as being an act of LOVE?

Am I the only person who isn’t throwing a nutty that the mother of the Redeemer is loved by her Son from the very beginning?

The only person who doesn’t think that it’s a false egalitarianism to try to lump all humans as being too ‘rotten’ for Christ to allow one of them to be born ‘sinless’ (how 'partial of Him, therefore how ‘sinful’ of Him, therefore it just couldn’t happen), yet insist that Christ ‘would have gotten along just great with a slobby sinful mother like the rest of us?’ How dare Christ get a ‘perfect’ mom when we have to deal with our lousy ones, no, He must have had an impure, thoughtless, sin-filled ‘normal’ mom so that he really **is ‘**just like us.’

We’ve taken the ‘man like us’ part so far that we forget the Divinity. We insist on holding God ‘down’ and making Him conform to our standards, our own limited and stingy notions of ‘justice’ and ‘right.’ We won’t ‘let’ Him have ways that are ‘above’ our ways. We are so greedy for our own place in the cosmos that we won’t allow anyone, not God Himself or His Mother, to have what we in our tiny fallible prejudiced little minds ‘feel’ is an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE over the rest of us. Wah wah wah.
Boy are God’s ways above our ways. Could God have been born of a sinful person? Of course; God can do anything. Would God have been born of a sinful person in light of His repugnance to sin, as per sacred scripture? Doesn’t seem likely. How bad is sin from God’s perspective according to scripture? Well, God condemned Satan to an eternal hell for pride; God condemned mankind to an eternal hell as a result of the sins of Adam Eve, but gave us a way out through His Son:

*Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—
*
How bad is sin to God? God drowned the entire world in a flood of water, without regard to age or sex, for their sin and wickedness. How bad is sin? God annihilated seven nations of Canaan for abominable atrocities. God destroyed a man and his wife in church for fudging their giving. :eek: God measures even the desire for another woman as adultery. God considers unjust anger and cruel words as implicit murder. Matt 5:21-26) - and He counts the violation of one precept as breaking the entire law, for even one transgression is of infinite evil. In order for God to accept any man/woman in His presence, He had to (chose to) - send His only begotten Son to be tortured to death in a substitutionary payment for our sins, which boggles my mind! In the crucifixion of Jesus the Christ, we clearly see God’s intense hatred for sin, for He forsook His only beloved Son, when the sins of the human race were laid to His charge, and Jesus willing took our place. God is willing to love His elect, only because He views them through the divine eyes of His Son Jesus, and due to God’s extreme hatred for even the slightest sin, I do not believe that God would allow His Only begotten Son to become one with sinful flesh for even a moment. However, that is just my humble opinion.

When we, as sinners, reach God’s heavenly home, surely we will be made immaculate in order to enter. By the same token, God’s earthly home for 9 months, almost 2000 years ago, would have been made immaculate as well, logically speaking.
 
Hey Mark…

I have not read his book yet. His conversion story is a pretty good one and he is really well informed as well.

A former protestant praying for the dead; can you say irony… 😃
How about this, Joe?

Lutherans do it all the time. The Lutheran confessions do not ban prayers for the dead.

From the Lutheran Service Book:

*“Give to Your **whole Church in heaven and on earth **Your light and Your peace…. Grant that **all **who have been nourished by the holy body and blood of Your Son may be raised to immortality and incorruption to be seated with Him at Your heavenly banquet.” *

Jon
 
Interesting Jon…
Lutherans do it all the time. The Lutheran confessions do not ban prayers for the dead.
I honestly did not know that. Jon, those in heaven absolutely don’t need our prayers and those in hell absolutely cannot benefit from our prayers, so where are those souls, (who have died) - that can benefit from our prayers? :confused:
 
dianaiad, you said:
Don’t have to. Everybody already is.
I’m sorry but I am not following you. Perhaps I missed something in the translation.
 
dianaiad, you said:

I’m sorry but I am not following you. Perhaps I missed something in the translation.
No…it’s a Mormon thing. You see, we believe that everybody is born absolutely innocent; without the ‘taint’ of original sin, or, in other words, 'immaculately concieved."

Which of course, for us, makes your question pretty much…moot. 😉
 
No…it’s a Mormon thing. You see, we believe that everybody is born absolutely innocent; without the ‘taint’ of original sin, or, in other words, 'immaculately concieved."

Which of course, for us, makes your question pretty much…moot. 😉
Okay…I did not know that. The Mormon church believes that no one sins? :confused::confused::confused:
 
Interesting Jon…
I honestly did not know that. Jon, those in heaven absolutely don’t need our prayers and those in hell absolutely cannot benefit from our prayers, so where are those souls, (who have died) - that can benefit from our prayers? :confused:
I think there’s nothing wrong with praying for the whole Church, but for me it is in particularly appropriate for those who have just died, that we pray for God’s mercy on them. If we recognize that God is outside of time, these prayers can be of value.

Jon
 
Okay…I did not know that. The Mormon church believes that no one sins? :confused::confused::confused:
(laughing) Oh, no…

We do believe that all sin. However, we don’t beleive that we are born with the burden of ADAM’S sin. We believe that the Atonement of Jesus Christ took care of ‘original sin…’ and that any sins we commit are OUR responsibility.

We do not baptise infants because of this–they don’t require baptism if they don’t sin–and they can’t sin. They are utterly innocent, until they understand what ‘sin’ actually is.
 
I think there’s nothing wrong with praying for the whole Church, but for me it is in particularly appropriate for those who have just died, that we pray for God’s mercy on them. If we recognize that God is outside of time, these prayers can be of value.

Jon
Hi Jon,

I don’t think you answered Joe’s (purgatory) question.

Best wishes.
 
(laughing) Oh, no…

We do believe that all sin. However, we don’t beleive that we are born with the burden of ADAM’S sin. We believe that the Atonement of Jesus Christ took care of ‘original sin…’ and that any sins we commit are OUR responsibility.

We do not baptise infants because of this–they don’t require baptism if they don’t sin–and they can’t sin. They are utterly innocent, until they understand what ‘sin’ actually is.
I get it. 👍 I was just wondering: do you believe that the Mormon church is the church founded by Jesus or the reformed church established by Jesus via Joseph Smith, or neither? :confused:
 
Hi Jon,

I don’t think you answered Joe’s (purgatory) question.

Best wishes.
Hi Mark,
I’ve answered this in other threads, my belief that if one describes purgatory as a momentary time of cleansing, at the time of death, I have no problem with it. It seems reasonable.

Jon
 
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