...if you had the chance to create your mother, would you make her immaculate?

[mark_a]

Hi Mark,
I’ve answered this in other threads, my belief that if one describes purgatory as a momentary time of cleansing, at the time of death, I have no problem with it. It seems reasonable.

Jon

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[dianaiad]

I get it. I was just wondering: do you believe that the Mormon church is the church founded by Jesus or the reformed church established by Jesus via Joseph Smith, or neither?

I believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the restored (not reformed…and the difference is important) church that was founded by Jesus Christ, and restored BY Him through the prophet Joseph Smith.

The reformers saw the Catholic church as having gone down the wrong path–and they wanted to reform it, and bring it back to the correct heading. Mormons believed that something very important to Christ’s church was, not simply heading in the wrong direction, but utterly lost from the earth. That ‘something’ (the priesthood…) needed to be restored. No amount of ‘reformation’ could accomplish it.

That is our view, anyway.

 

[joe370]

Dianaiad, so the CC which was the historical church of believers, founded by Jesus Christ, circa AD 33 - failed, necessitating the need for Jesus to restore His church through the prophet, Joseph Smith, who established a separate church, having nothing to do with the CC?

Where does that leave the CC of believers if the CC is “utterly lost from the earth?”

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad, so the CC which was the historical church of believers, founded by Jesus Christ, circa AD 33 - failed, necessitating the need for Jesus to restore His church through the prophet, Joseph Smith, who established a separate church, having nothing to do with the CC?

Where does that leave the CC of believers if the CC is “utterly lost from the earth?”

You aren’t confused. You are begging the question, and doing some pretty good equivocating, as well.

First, let us get one thing very clear; I do not believe that the “Catholic Church” was the church 'founded by Jesus Christ, circa AD33." I believe that the church of Jesus Christ was founded by Jesus Christ, circa AD 33, and that shortly after the apostles died, and public revelation ceased, the priesthood was lost/taken from the earth. Sometime after that the Catholic church came into being. The Catholic church has roots in that early Christian church. It has carefully husbanded many of the truths. It protected the canon of scripture we know as the bible.Many of the individuals in the Catholic church are truly inspired and, in spite of the problems inherent in not having public revelation nor the priesthood, have done exceedingly well. The vast majority of Catholics are true Christians, with a humble relationship with Christ.

But they do not believe in, nor belong to, that original church of Jesus Christ.

The Catholic church, in other words, is what happened to Christians after the priesthood was lost and people stopped listening to public revelation. It is that first, original, church (complete with revelation and the priesthood) which was restored by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith. It has nothing at all to do with the Catholic Church.

Too blunt?

Well, at least we are well aware that CAtholics are Christians, which is a darned site better than you do for us.

 

[joe370]

dianaiad;7153886]You aren’t confused. You are begging the question, and doing some pretty good equivocating, as well.

First, let us get one thing very clear; I do not believe that the “Catholic Church” was the church 'founded by Jesus Christ, circa AD33." I believe that the church of Jesus Christ was founded by Jesus Christ, circa AD 33, and that shortly after the apostles died, and public revelation ceased, the priesthood was lost/taken from the earth.

Phew…

Sometime after that the Catholic church came into being. The Catholic church has roots in that early Christian church.

We know that Joseph Smith was the founder of the church to which you belong. If Jesus was not the founder of the CC then who was - name(s) please?

It has carefully husbanded many of the truths. It protected the canon of scripture we know as the bible.

What in the heck gives the supposed man-made CC the right to codify and safeguard the canon of scripture if the CC was not entrusted with the task, by Jesus, to do so?

Many of the individuals in the Catholic church are truly inspired and, in spite of the problems inherent in not having public revelation nor the priesthood, have done exceedingly well. The vast majority of Catholics are true Christians, with a humble relationship with Christ.

Where can a valid priesthood, established by Jesus, be found in the world today?

But they do not believe in, nor belong to, that original church of Jesus Christ.

So you believe that the original church started by Jesus, is forever gone?

The Catholic church, in other words, is what happened to Christians after the priesthood was lost and people stopped listening to public revelation. It is that first, original, church (complete with revelation and the priesthood) which was restored by Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith. It has nothing at all to do with the Catholic Church.

Too blunt?

Not at all. You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you want to believe. Please identify this original church founded by God, that ceases to exist today?
Well, at least we are well aware that CAtholics are Christians, which is a darned site better than you do for us.

 

[joe370]

Hey dianaiad…

Well, at least we are well aware that CAtholics are Christians, which is a darned site better than you do for us.

---

Not true my Christian friend…

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”[269] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[270] - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[271]

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”[272]

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”[273] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”[274] Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[275] and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”[276]

 

[dianaiad]

Phew…

We know that Joseph Smith was the founder of the church to which you belong. If Jesus was not the founder of the CC then who was - name(s) please?

I know that you believe that Jesus was the founder of the Catholic church. I respect that. I also understand that you believe that Joseph Smith…and NOT Jesus, was the founder of mine. I respect that opinion also. If I were a Catholic, I would believe the same thing–or else not be a Catholic.

However, I am not a Catholic. I am a Mormon. That means, by definition, that I believe that Jesus Christ founded the church of Jesus Christ, and that shortly after the original twelve apostles (and their replacements) died and public revelation ceased, that the church of Jesus Christ suffered a period of apostacy…and that organization that called itself the Catholic Church was the result. I also believe that Jesus Christ Himself restored His original church by calling a prophet, Joseph Smith. The priesthood (which we believe was lost) was restored. The original organization (which fell by the wayside) was restored.

This said, I certainly understand that you don’t agree with this.

dianaiad:

It has carefully husbanded many of the truths. It protected the canon of scripture we know as the bible.

What in the heck gives the supposed man-made CC the right to codify and safeguard the canon of scripture if the CC was not entrusted with the task, by Jesus, to do so?

Lots of scholarship, and all those personally inspired Christians I talked about.

Where can a valid priesthood, established by Jesus, be found in the world today?

Since I AM LDS, I’m sure that you can understand what my answer would have to be, yes?

So you believe that the original church started by Jesus, is forever gone?

No, sir, that’s what ‘restored’ is all about. eeks and all.

Not at all. You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you want to believe. Please identify this original church founded by God, that ceases to exist today?

Original church founded by Jesus Christ, organization/priesthood/public revelation lost shortly after the apostles died, restored in these latter days through exactly the sort of public revelation that we all agree ceased originally upon the death of the apostles.

In other words, I believe that it’s right here.

(shrug) I do understand that you do not agree.

 

[dianaiad]

Hey dianaiad…

Not true my Christian friend…

817 In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.”[269] The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism[270] - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.[271]

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers … All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”[272]

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth”[273] are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”[274] Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,[275] and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”[276]

Joe, bless your generous heart, but it’s official. The Catholic church does not consider Mormonism to be Christian. Although the Catholic church will accept the baptism of other churches…as long as they are properly Trinitarian in intent, it does not accept LDS baptism as valid, nor the CoJCoLDS as Christian.

Of course, we don’t accept anybody else’s baptism but ours, so that’s fair enough; we do believe that baptism must be done by someone who has the authority to perform it (meaning someone who has the priesthood, which, of course, we believe we have and y’all don’t).

We do believe, however, that all those whose religion revolves around Jesus Christ, who try to follow His teachings, and claim to be Christian are, indeed, Christian.