If you ran this country poll..

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Liberalsaved:
No, you have no right to yell and holler at people whose lives are not yours to control and then stop caring about the fetus once it is born.
Excuse me, I have no right to **yell **at people who are killing an innocent child, because their lives are not mine to *control, *but they have a right to kill?
Whether or not Icare enough about “the fetus after it is born” is irrelevant; if you saw someone murdering a child an alleyway, would you feel you had no right to attempt to stop it unless you personally planned to take the child into your home afterwards? Your claim that pro-lifers “don’t care about the fetus after it is born” is an ad hominem fallacy; we could be the coldest, most self-centered people on the face of the earth and still it would not make abortion ethical.
 
BlindSheep you do not have to murder a child to kill it , you can do that in many ways ,i have a friend who is ex Catholic because no one from her church would help her when she needed it most , her childhood was destroyed by abuse and no one would help,SHE WAS NOT ABUSED BY A PRIEST , YOURS MICHAELMAC ,
 
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michaelmac:
BlindSheep you do not have to murder a child to kill it , you can do that in many ways ,i have a friend who is ex Catholic because no one from her church would help her when she needed it most , her childhood was destroyed by abuse and no one would help,SHE WAS NOT ABUSED BY A PRIEST , YOURS MICHAELMAC ,
What exactly are you saying? That if people witness a child being harmed and do nothing, their inaction is in itself wrong and sinful? I agree. Or are you saying that it would have been better if your friend had been aborted, or that those same people would have been wrong to oppose her being either aborted or killed after birth because they failed to help her?
 
Let’s all calm down - it is lent… Feel the love 🙂

I chose only rape and robbery. I disagree with abortion in most cases, but I am not a fan of absolutes, and thus, do not want to rule out it all together. I do not think that robbery and rape can be sucessfully justified anyway.

I also do not want to impose my religious beliefs upon a society or people, if one is to conform to God’s wishes, it is best they do it out of their own choice, than because I forced them too.
 
BlindSheep in not suggesting she should have been aborted ,what happened destroyed her belief in the church and God ,and destroyed her childhood, yours michaelmac
 
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Liberalsaved:
No, you have no right to yell and holler at people whose lives are not yours to control and then stop caring about the fetus once it is born.
Libersaved ~ so I take it you are pro-choice? But yet your profile states that you are Catholic? I am a fairly new Catholic and I’m trying to understand this… help me please. My Priest recently said in his homily that the Catholic Church ALWAYS stands up for the sanctity of human life. He went on to say that one cannot consider themselves Catholic if they believe that abortion is ever OK since abortion takes a human life.

So what… would you say my Priest is wrong? How do you reconcile your pro-abortion views with your Catholic faith?
 
Carol Marie,
A person who is baptised Catholic or converted to the Catholic faith and who has not been excommunicated is a Catholic regardless of what they do and what they believe.

Your priest is trying to say (in slightly stronger words) that every Catholic should believe that abortion is never okay. What he means is that anyone who lets ‘being Catholic’ become a part of their lives (rather than just being a label attached to them) must believe that abortion is always wrong. People who are ‘officially’ Catholic but don’t agree with vital Church teachings (such as on abortion issue) would more likely call themselves CINO (Catholic in name only) or ‘cafeteria Catholic’, they in a way wouldn’t consider themselves to be ‘real’ Catholics. However, that label is only for them to give themselves, we shouldn’t judge or describe another person as anything other than Catholic if that’s what they are.
 
carol marie:
Libersaved ~ so I take it you are pro-choice? But yet your profile states that you are Catholic? I am a fairly new Catholic and I’m trying to understand this… help me please. My Priest recently said in his homily that the Catholic Church ALWAYS stands up for the sanctity of human life. He went on to say that one cannot consider themselves Catholic if they believe that abortion is ever OK since abortion takes a human life.

So what… would you say my Priest is wrong? How do you reconcile your pro-abortion views with your Catholic faith?
I am pro-what everyone else does that doesn;t affect me is none of my business. If that sounds cold, then I guess I’m cold. But I prefer to live my way and let them live theirs. Pro-abortion is a non-term. It’s words that people use to make their opponents sound like slavering baby-killing heartless savages, and I’ll thank you not to try and pigeonhole me because there are a lot of ways I could do the same to you, and I don’t.
 
Wasn’t it Pope John Paul II who said something to the effect that freedom results when men have the opportunity to do what is right, rather than to do what they want?

Furthermore, if you want to have a grasp on what we should do “if you ran this country…” I would recommend reading some of the Encyclicals by Pope Leo XIII, namely Immortale Dei. You can find many Papal documents on www.papalencyclicals.net

The State’s legitimate authority exists to protect the Catholic social order in the temporal world-that is the only true and perfect government. Granted, we are not and will not be perfect in the temporal world but the more the State is in discord with the Church, the worse off we are all. The closer we orient the dictates of the State to those of the Church, the better off we all are.

Thus, to play along with the first stated question, I’d make myself Emperor (hey, it is if “I ran the country”… 👍 ) then I’d go about making everything contrary to Catholic teaching illegal. No porn, no abortion, no euthanasia etc.

When it comes to matters of free will, I would make certain allowances. I’d allow people to be members of heretical and/or schismatic sects, infidel and pagan religions as well as agnostic or atheistic philosophies in a private manner. However, publically, no one could teach or try to win converts over to their errors without incuring secular penalties. Disimination of all such errors by means of print, electronic means of all types (radio, TV, internet etc.) would be illegal.

All things Catholic would be given precedence, free will would be preserved however error would not be fostered or allowed to spread freely like it is today. Eventually, the Catholic Faith would be the Status Quo and all manners of error would be seen as degeneracy and not tolerated.

The most wonderful thing is that we would have full and unbridled use of all the electronic means we have today that we didn’t have at the times of the Great Schism or Protestant “Reformation” and with this greater speed of communication, the Church and State would be well aware of any troublemakers well before they begin to foster any sizable followings. Any such outbursts would be small and could be dealt with quickly and effectively. Without being held back by the secularists or heretics, we could bring the full brunt on Truth against all false claims and be unfettered by the lying leftist media or “intelligensia”. Imagine the posibility of not having to wage a constant uphill battle against misquotation, misinterpretation, purposeful misrepresentation, outright lying, and all the other tricks some people use to try to chip away at the Church! If it were the other way around, wow!

Granted, this is all just a pipe dream and I know full well that it won’t come true (don’t worry, I’m not dillusional :whacky: ) but in my opinion, that is what as perfect as theoretically possible (but highly improbable) Catholic State would look like. I think the main obstacle against it would be…sin. Even back in the day when Church and State weren’t shoehorned into this false notion of “separation of Church and State” it wasn’t “perfect”.

Another argument against this is one I frequently come up against, “You don’t really believe in this ‘authoritarian’ style of government, do you? What if a Baptist or a Mormon or a Muslim took over? Would you like religious authoritarianism then?”

Well, the obvious answer is that I don’t support “relgious authoritarianism”, I support a Catholic social order. Only the Truth can bring about Order. If you substitute for Catholicism you will fail.

Just look at the Communist system. They radically abandoned God and they radically failed. The Communist system once ruled somewhere around half of the world, seemed like it was getting more and more powerful and then fell flat on its face. Today it exists only in the guise of tin red stars and other little knickknacks that the Chinese, Vietnamese, Cuban, and N. Korean governent uses to play Communist. What they call “Communism” has little to do with the philosophy of Marx, Engels or Lenin. Error always begets failure.
 
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Liberalsaved:
I am pro-what everyone else does that doesn;t affect me is none of my business. If that sounds cold, then I guess I’m cold. But I prefer to live my way and let them live theirs. Pro-abortion is a non-term. It’s words that people use to make their opponents sound like slavering baby-killing heartless savages, and I’ll thank you not to try and pigeonhole me because there are a lot of ways I could do the same to you, and I don’t.
So in other words, you don’t care what happens to other people? If you walked by an alley and saw someone being beaten or raped, would you call the police?
 
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Liberalsaved:
I am pro-what everyone else does that doesn;t affect me is none of my business. If that sounds cold, then I guess I’m cold. But I prefer to live my way and let them live theirs. Pro-abortion is a non-term. It’s words that people use to make their opponents sound like slavering baby-killing heartless savages, and I’ll thank you not to try and pigeonhole me because there are a lot of ways I could do the same to you, and I don’t.
So in other words, you don’t care what happens to other people? If you walked by an alley and saw someone being beaten or raped, would you call the police?
 
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Liberalsaved:
I am pro-what everyone else does that doesn;t affect me is none of my business. If that sounds cold, then I guess I’m cold. But I prefer to live my way and let them live theirs. Pro-abortion is a non-term. It’s words that people use to make their opponents sound like slavering baby-killing heartless savages, and I’ll thank you not to try and pigeonhole me because there are a lot of ways I could do the same to you, and I don’t.
I don’t mind if you “pigeonhole” me. You could start by saying that I’m 100% prolife and I believe that no one has the right to take another person’s life. You could go on to say that I believe in all the teachings of the Catholic Church, since I believe that God has entrusted the Pope, the Bishops, the Priests with my spiritual instruction. Hmm… what else could you say about me? I guess that I’m concerned with the welfare of others which is why I help support Crisis Pregnancy Centers, food banks, homeless shelters and anyone else that I run across who needs help. Have I adopted any unwanted babies? No… I’m busy raising the 5 children God has blessed us with… but someday I would welcome that if it’s God’s plan for us.

Someone else posted that we are not to judge other Catholics. I want to assure you that I am not judging you at all. I simply asked you a question, which apparently ruffled your feathers. I never said that pro-abortion (people who support abortion rights) were baby-killing heartless savages… gosh that sounds so cruel and evil doesn’t it??? :rolleyes:
 
Theoretically, you could outlaw everything that was sinful and that would be fine.

However there arise problems between enforcement, tolerance, and greater good.

For example, outlawing condoms would be nicey-nice. But there is a greater good in safeguarding the privacy of the home. Therefor we might have to tolerate some evil in order for good to flourish. That is the true meaning of tolerance - unlike the distorted version the homosexual lobby crows about. The tolerance they want is really approval.

Also remember that all government ultimately comes down to coercive force. Every law made is backed by a man in uniform carrying a gun.

For some moral issues, such enforcement is unnecessary.

Just look at the problems arising when we made charitable giving a law. We now force people hand over money, then we take that money and feed and house the poor. Sounds like a good thing, except for the fact that we use force to extort the money from the people in the first place. If you don’t think we use force just try not paying taxes.
 
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michaelmac:
Hi all, as an English man i would not ban abortion, because i do not have the right to tell any one they cannot abort ,and to tell a rape or abuse victim they cannot have an abortion in my eyes is evil , no church should be able to impose its rules on any one who is not a member of that church, and banning contraception, is daft when people like me dont want children yours michaelmac
Just out of curiosity, if you were a woman, would you ever get an abortion?

It always strikes me funny when people say things like, “I’m personally against abortion, but I don’t feel I have the right to impose my views on other people.” The question I fire back when people say this is always, “Well, why are you personally against abortion?” More times than not, the response I get is because they believe the fetus is a baby! So my next question to them is, “If you believe a fetus is a baby, then why wouldn’t you want to impose your beliefs on others, after all, killing babies is MURDER!”
 
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kparlet:
Just out of curiosity, if you were a woman, would you ever get an abortion?

It always strikes me funny when people say things like, “I’m personally against abortion, but I don’t feel I have the right to impose my views on other people.” The question I fire back when people say this is always, “Well, why are you personally against abortion?” More times than not, the response I get is because they believe the fetus is a baby! So my next question to them is, “If you believe a fetus is a baby, then why wouldn’t you want to impose your beliefs on others, after all, killing babies is MURDER!”
That isn’t my response at all. I won’t reveal my reasons for thinking the way I do, though, ever on this board, because I know that respect for other posters for many of you extends only to those you agree with, and I don’t feel like having my personal life torn to shreds because you all can’t deal with difference of opinion.
 
carol marie:
I don’t mind if you “pigeonhole” me. You could start by saying that I’m 100% prolife and I believe that no one has the right to take another person’s life. You could go on to say that I believe in all the teachings of the Catholic Church, since I believe that God has entrusted the Pope, the Bishops, the Priests with my spiritual instruction. Hmm… what else could you say about me? I guess that I’m concerned with the welfare of others which is why I help support Crisis Pregnancy Centers, food banks, homeless shelters and anyone else that I run across who needs help. Have I adopted any unwanted babies? No… I’m busy raising the 5 children God has blessed us with… but someday I would welcome that if it’s God’s plan for us.

Someone else posted that we are not to judge other Catholics. I want to assure you that I am not judging you at all. I simply asked you a question, which apparently ruffled your feathers. I never said that pro-abortion (people who support abortion rights) were baby-killing heartless savages… gosh that sounds so cruel and evil doesn’t it??? :rolleyes:
It does, and I have it used that way at me all the time and got ruffled, this is true. When you’ve had it and other more colorful names screamed at you by someone who looks like they want to stick you in public, you’d react the same way.

And I could also note that you firmly beleive anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. That’s just not the way I live my life, and I’m sorry if that offends someone’s spiritual life. I really am. But if you truly find that attitude wrong, then you really are living in the wrong place. There are places where people are punished for disagreeing with certain viewpoints. And I prefer to take my live and let live stance precisely because those places never sounded fun or safe to live in. I feel no remorse and offer no apologies for seeing the world that way. I do not feel any are owed, precisely because I do help other people even at times when the help is something I could probably use myself.

The funny thing is, everyone is dead wrong to someone. That is, almost everyone. If you walk up to me in the street and tell me a black person is less than human, yes, I’m going to inform you rather uncharitably that perhaps you should revisit fourth grade (“you” is being used in a broad term here). However, for the most part, I’ve seen how so-called convictions can turn people into my-way-or-the-highway cranks. And I don’t want to be that, so I choose a looser, more easy-going life style in which I have my convictions and will debate them against other people’s, but unless it is most obvious, I will never call someone anything belittling for an opinion. I may say I think they are wrong, but I will never leave it at that; I always explain myself.

This is just me. If someone doesn’t like it, no one is forcing them to respond to me.
 
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BlindSheep:
So in other words, you don’t care what happens to other people? If you walked by an alley and saw someone being beaten or raped, would you call the police?
Wow, you are a master of spin. See my above response to Carol marie. That’s the only response you’re getting until you can stop putting words in my mouth.
 
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Liberalsaved:
And I could also note that you firmly beleive anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. That’s just not the way I live my life, and I’m sorry if that offends someone’s spiritual life. I really am. But if you truly find that attitude wrong, then you really are living in the wrong place.
:rotfl: :rolleyes: :rotfl:
 
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Liberalsaved:
Wow, you are a master of spin. See my above response to Carol marie. That’s the only response you’re getting until you can stop putting words in my mouth.
I see. So you’re “pro-what everyone else does that doesn;t affect me is none of my business.” yet it is “putting words in your mouth” to ask if you would call the police to report someone else being raped or beaten (which doesn’t affect you, and therefore is, according to your words, none of your business).
And you also refuse to give an explanation of this apparently contradictory position. I can only assume, then, that you have no explanation.
 
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