If you stopped being catholic....

[Mickey]

How do you explain people talking about this doctrine in a pre-schism world?

Context my friend, context.

 

[Mickey]

Jesus was talking to just Peter here, following his confession of faith. Only Peter is given the keys to heaven. Keys signifed authority. And yes, they were all given the power to bind and loose, but Peter was especially singled out as receiving the keys to heaven.

All received the keys as is evident by Matthew 18:18.

St Peter was the leader of the Apostles. But he was not a supreme infallible entity. They were all equals.

 

[steve_b]

What about verse 23?
“But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.”

If all things regarding Peter and Jesus stopped there, all the polemics by non and anti Catholics would have traction.
Lutheran:

I complete agree with your statement about interpreting in context. And that is the reason I cannot accept the “authority” of the Bishop of Rome from this part of Matthew. And since no other part of Scripture even comes close to justifying it, I have to reject the notion as unbiblical.

short answer

the only one to receive the keys was Peter. Others later received the power to bind and loose, but nowhere does it say they got the keys. Those come from Jesus through Peter to the Church.

In Jn 21:16
After the resurrection but before His ascension, Jesus said to Peter the second time, Simon, son of John, do you love me? Peter said to Jesus , Yes Lord; you know that I love you. Jesus said to Peter, feed (poimaino in the Greek) my sheep.

This word poimaino means to rule. Jesus in this exchange, has singled Peter out again from all the apostles, and in front of the apostles Jesus confirms again to all of them, just as He did at Ceserea Philippi, that it is Peter who the Father has chosen to lead/rule the Church.

 

[steve_b]

All received the keys as is evident by Matthew 18:18.

Do you see keys mentioned in that exchange? No. The only mention of keys is with Peter ALONE. Therefore the keys come through Peter.

Mickey:

St Peter was the leader of the Apostles. But he was not a supreme infallible entity. They were all equals.

1. 
   *]If ONE is THE leader, then all are not the leader.
   *]If they were all equal, then God would not single out Peter for unique and primary roles, not given to the others.

 

[Mickey]

Others later received the power to bind and loose, but nowhere does it say they got the keys.

The power to bind and loose are synonymous with the keys. Do you think that the Apostles have this glorious grace from Jesus Christ to bind and loose, but he refuses them the keys to the kingdom?

Those come through Peter to the Church.

No. They come to the Church through Jesus Christ and all the Apostles. Why do you think it is called Apostolic Succession?

In Jn 21:16
After the resurrection but before His ascension, Jesus said to Peter the second time, Simon, son of John, do you love me? Peter said to Jesus , Yes Lord; you know that I love you. Jesus said to Peter, feed (poimaino in the Greek) my sheep.

And do you know why St Peter was asked three times?

To make amends for his triple denial of Christ.

Jesus in this exchange, has singled Peter out again from all the apostles

All the Apostles were sent forth to teach, preach, and evangelize.

 

[Mickey]

Therefore the keys come through Peter.

St Peter was the leader of the Apostles–a primacy of honor but equal in all respects–just as the Church always believed before Rome broke away and then invented supremacy and papal infallibility through the ultra montanists

All the Apostles had the power to bind and loose.

All held the keys.

And if you confess Jesus Christ to be Messiah, the Son of the living God, you are like St Peter!

If they were all equal, then God would not single out Peter for unique and primary roles, not given to the others.

St John is often referred to as the one whom Jesus Christ loved. Did Christ love him more than St Peter? Perhaps he loved him more than St James?

Of course not. He loved them all equally.

 

[b_justb]

If you were to convert to another religion, which one would it be?

Probably a Quaker.

 

[Brother_John]

Probably a Quaker.

Feelin’ your oats?

 

[steve_b]

The power to bind and loose are synonymous with the keys. Do you think that the Apostles have this glorious grace from Jesus Christ to bind and loose, but he refuses them the keys to the kingdom?

When Jesus gave Peter the keys Jesus was speaking to Peter directly. Jesus said to Peter (singular not plural), I give YOU the keys, whatever YOU bind and whatever YOU loose.

In Mt 18:18 Jesus made some qualifications with the others. Do you know what that was? Go back and read it.

Mickey:

No. They come to the Church through Jesus Christ and all the Apostles. Why do you think it is called Apostolic Succession?

The keys come from Jesus through Peter. That’s scriptural

Apostolic succession is a different point.

Mickey:

And do you know why St Peter was asked three times?

To make amends for his triple denial of Christ.

That too.

Mickey:

All the Apostles were sent forth to teach, preach, and evangelize.

True. But only ONE was selected by God to be THE leader of all.

 

[b_justb]

Feelin’ your oats?

good one

 

[steve_b]

St Peter was the leader of the Apostles–a primacy of honor but equal in all respects–just as the Church always believed before Rome broke away and then invented supremacy and papal infallibility through the ultra montanists

Primacy of honor was never used by Jesus when HE gave Peter the keys. When you look at all the history of God leading His people from Abraham, Moses, David, Solemon, etc etc etc they didn’t hold a primacy of honor, they were the leaders. It didn’t mean there weren’t ministers under the leader who had power. But God always had ONE prime leader to lead His people.

Mickey:

All the Apostles had the power to bind and loose.

Re: Mt 18:18… (start reading in v 15) what were the qualifications for them that wasn’t in Mt 16:15…?

Mickey:

All held the keys.

Scripture shows that only Peter received the keys. Therefore, the keys came from Jesus through Peter to… the others

Mickey:

And if you confess Jesus Christ to be Messiah, the Son of the living God, you are like St Peter!

One might be like Peter but that doesn’t make them Peter.

Mickey:

St John is often referred to as the one whom Jesus Christ loved. Did Christ love him more than St Peter? Perhaps he loved him more than St James?

Of course not. He loved them all equally.

Yet God singled out Peter for a specific role, and that role was to continue becuse Our Lord’s Church was meant to continue after all the apostles died.

 

[ChristianRoots]

Context my friend, context.

Excuse me for my ignorance, but I don’t know what you mean.

Do you think I am reading too much into these documents?

 

[Mickey]

True. But only ONE was selected by God to be THE leader of all.

All were leaders. All were evangelists. All were teachers. No one denies St Peter’s primacy. But he most certainly was not a supreme infallible Apostle.

 

[jmcrae]

The church in Rome did not have a bishop until sometime after 140 AD

What is your definition of a “Bishop”?

 

[gigageek]

I guess I understood this thread to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

A simple question. If you stopped being Catholic, what would you be. We don’t have to defend our Catholicism here. The OP made that clear.

Take a deep breath and enjoy. Nobody said you HAD to stop being Catholic.

I can appreciate your point and the tongue-in-cheek nature of the question, but for me to answer such a question even in jest would be like me trying to answer the question…“If you stopped being human what would you be?” How could I answer either question even tongue-in-cheek?

There is no other option. The only point to a question like this (in my opinion) is to test the faith of the faithful. If it is not right to test our Father then how can if be any better to test his faithful, except to undermine them and their faith.

I like having a good sense of humor, but in my opinion no good can come from a question like this. I also don’t visit these forums to have fun, but to better understand and educate my self and others on the Truth that is the Catholic Church.

 

[ChristianRoots]

The power to bind and loose are synonymous with the keys. Do you think that the Apostles have this glorious grace from Jesus Christ to bind and loose, but he refuses them the keys to the kingdom?

No. They come to the Church through Jesus Christ and all

 

[Mickey]

Scripture shows that only Peter received the keys. Therefore, the keys came from Jesus through Peter to… the others

Bingo! All held the keys!

One might be like Peter but that doesn’t make them Peter.

The Pope of Rome is like St Peter.

Yet God singled out Peter for a specific role, and that role was to continue becuse Our Lord’s Church was meant to continue after all the apostles died.

All the Apostles started Churches. Rome was not the only Church. There were five Patriarchates. In fact, St Peter was in Antioch first. Perhaps Antioch is the true see of St Peter?

 

[Mickey]

Yes, but Peter was the leader of the Apostles.

No one disputes this. But he surely was not a supreme infallible entity.

Also, why did the risen Christ first appear to Peter?

He appeared to two women first.

announced the first dogmatic decision (Acts15:7-11).

That was St James.

Peter was clearly the leader of the Apostles.

Yes.

Why is that

It certainly was not so that Rome could invent the doctrine of supremacy/infallibilty 1800 years later.

 

[jmcrae]

It certainly was not so that Rome could invent the doctrine of supremacy/infallibilty 1800 years later.

People have been having trouble with this dogma of the Church for a lot longer than that - pretty strange, if it didn’t begin to exist until then?

 

[Mickey]

Re: Mt 18:18… (start reading in v 15) what were the qualifications for them that wasn’t in Mt 16:15…

Take it to the Church.
And what is the Church?
Jesus Christ is the head–the foundation–the cornerstone–strengthened on the confession of St Peter, the leader of the Apostles, through which all the Apostles hold the keys to the kingdom and the power to bind and loose.

This is plain and easy to understand from Scripture and Tradition.

There is no supreme pontiff–all bishops were/are equal.

There is no papal infallibility.

There is no submission of the entire Church to universal bishop of Rome.

"I am Tradition!" (quote by Pius IX during Vatican Council I)
The council that declared papal infallibility.