If you were European

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FightingFat:
Would you vote to be a member of the EU? The Euro? The whole shebang?

What do you see as the pros and cons?
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Probably yes.

Unfortunately the world is getting smaller and to survive in any way requires strength in depth. I accept some of the arguments against the EU constitution but, like all documents you have to look at all aspects of it. My gut feeling at the present says that Europe can only survive and prosper in a united form, the days of single countries with the limitations this places on industry and investment are sadly numbered.

As far as the Euro is concerned I have never been one of the “Save the Pound” brigade. It almost makes me want to counter with “Bring back the Groat”. Sterling is simply a method of exchanging goods and services, it doesn’t matter if it’s called a Pound, a Franc, A Pesos or (God forbid) even a Dollar. What is important is it’s function in the markets and whether it is capable of supporting the country or countries that it serves.

I suspect that a lot of my thinking stems from the fact I have spent many years living and working overseas and I have come to realise there is very little difference between people. They all basically want the same things, live, eat, have children, have someone to love and someone to love them and hopefully to survive into a comfortable old age.

I suppose I also have an inbuilt fear of Nationalism in all its forms. Probably why I argue so much with many of our American friends. Nationalism in many of its forms is inward looking and ultimately self destructive. Giving oneself a pat on the back is one thing, doing so to such a degree that you fail to look at the rest of the world, or in this case Europe, simply blinds you to reality.

So do I think we would be better of in Europe? Yes, do I think we would lose our national identity? No, I have yet to meet a German, Spaniard, Frenchman or whatever who aren’t still German, Spanish, French etc. Do I fear a takeover of Europe by the Germans or French etc.? Thats a little more difficult, but Yes, having said that if they need to be stopped, they could only be stopped from the inside and as a country, we couldn’t do that from the outside. So for that reason, better in than out.
 
I disagree with Frances on many things and see them as a country that stands for nothing. I would not vote to be in alliance with them on anything.

As Patton said: " I’d rather have a german division in fornt of me than a french one behind me".
 
its not a topic I know much about. the Holy See has been a big proponent of European unity, so I’ll stand with the pope.
 
The Holy See’ and the Pope also begged the EU to include Christianity in their constitution…the EU refused to listen to the Holy See’ or the Pope.
 
I don’t know much about the EU, and since I am not European am not that interested in it. We have enough going on on our side of the pond. I do wish the Europeans would take the same stand with regard to America. You know, mind your own business.

I do think the EU should listen to the Pope and take his suggestions very, very seriously. Other than that I say it is up to each country if they wish to join or not. It is also the EU’s decision whether or not to allow a country to join. If they want to let Turkey in that is their business, just as NAFTA was ours.

Because of the above reasons I did not vote.
 
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TPJCatholic:
The Holy See’ and the Pope also begged the EU to include Christianity in their constitution…the EU refused to listen to the Holy See’ or the Pope.
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Yes - the way it is currently being developed is setting the foundation for big problems down the road.
 
Brad,

I agree. Europe is in incredible moral decline and it is a dying continent…the birth is far less then the death rate…the only thing keep-up the population there is immigration. Europe can no longer be considered a Christian place, Cathedrals are empty and young people are not even taught what they were used for. It is all very sad and the EU is just making it all much worse. It is ironic that Europe has found a way to have peace among its nations, while collectively damaging their eternal souls.
 
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TPJCatholic:
Brad,

I agree. Europe is in incredible moral decline and it is a dying continent…the birth is far less then the death rate…the only thing keep-up the population there is immigration. Europe can no longer be considered a Christian place, Cathedrals are empty and young people are not even taught what they were used for. It is all very sad and the EU is just making it all much worse. It is ironic that Europe has found a way to have peace among its nations, while collectively damaging their eternal souls.
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It is a tragedy. There is so much phenomenal Christian legacy in Europe - to throw it out is to do no less than to spit at God - for surely we would not ignore anything else so significant and prevalent.
 
Brad,

I agree–it is a modern day tragedy that has no equal.
 
Brad,

I agree–it is a modern day tragedy that has no equal.
 
Brad,

I agree–it is a modern day tragedy that has no equal (with the possible exceptions of abortion).
 
Brad,

I was so impressed with what I had to say, that I decided to say it three times…🙂

Sorry for the multi-post.
 
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TPJCatholic:
Brad,

I was so impressed with what I had to say, that I decided to say it three times…🙂

Sorry for the multi-post.
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No problem. I think we’ve all experienced “limbo post disease”.
 
I am European (Polish/German) and I’m ashamed that both contries are in the EU. Damn one world government **** filled with socialists…
 
As a non-European, I did not vote. I would approach the whole EU thing with a note of caution. The economic integration will be a great boon to the countries there. However, it is not hard to see that there is also a creeping movement towards a loss of sovereignty by the member nations. France and Germany, in particular, seem to envision a “United States of Europe” approach and espouse political unity along with economic integration. When this happens, the rights of individual nation states to dissent from this or that aspect of the law as befits their individual circumstances will be crushed. For example, pressure has been brought to bear on Ireland and Poland to abandon their prohibition on abortion. The recent blackballing of Rocco Buttiglione, a strong Catholic, from a position in the cabinet tells you exactly what sort of union is forming. I already consider it ominous that the contribution of the Church to the history of Europe is not even acknowledged in the new constitution. It’s as though the Church never existed. As long as the EU maintains itself as more of federation, it should generally be a positive. However, don’t be under any illusions that the EU bureaucrats in Brussels don’t have designs to centralise power even more.
 
I’ve come to the conclusion that the gulf between the States and Europe is far greater than that little bit of water in between.

I really don’t know where you get your information from about Europe in the States but if I was you I would be very very frightened, not of Europe but your own sources.

Yes, we have some problems with politicians and whether to include references to God in the European constitution but that is no greater than America’s problems with abortion or ethnicity.

Somebody made a comment about the Cathedrals being empty, here’s an invitation come to St Johns Norwich (it’s a Cathedral and we can seat 1400) on Saturday Night Mass, or any one of the three Sunday Masses, you’ll find it difficult to get a seat.

Oh, and before you write of Europe and Catholicism, remember where John Paul comes from. Pity you didn’t see the news on the box this evening, it was showing packed churches ALL OVER EUROPE with old, young and kids all praying for the safe recovery of our Pope. (And that included churches like the Russian Orthodox).
 
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Norwich:
I’ve come to the conclusion that the gulf between the States and Europe is far greater than that little bit of water in between.

I really don’t know where you get your information from about Europe in the States but if I was you I would be very very frightened, not of Europe but your own sources.

Yes, we have some problems with politicians and whether to include references to God in the European constitution but that is no greater than America’s problems with abortion or ethnicity.

Somebody made a comment about the Cathedrals being empty, here’s an invitation come to St Johns Norwich (it’s a Cathedral and we can seat 1400) on Saturday Night Mass, or any one of the three Sunday Masses, you’ll find it difficult to get a seat.

Oh, and before you write of Europe and Catholicism, remember where John Paul comes from. Pity you didn’t see the news on the box this evening, it was showing packed churches ALL OVER EUROPE with old, young and kids all praying for the safe recovery of our Pope. (And that included churches like the Russian Orthodox).
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Gee, you’re awfully touchy when someone says something negative about Europe😉
 
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Norwich:
I’ve come to the conclusion that the gulf between the States and Europe is far greater than that little bit of water in between.

I really don’t know where you get your information from about Europe in the States but if I was you I would be very very frightened, not of Europe but your own sources.

Yes, we have some problems with politicians and whether to include references to God in the European constitution but that is no greater than America’s problems with abortion or ethnicity.

Somebody made a comment about the Cathedrals being empty, here’s an invitation come to St Johns Norwich (it’s a Cathedral and we can seat 1400) on Saturday Night Mass, or any one of the three Sunday Masses, you’ll find it difficult to get a seat.

Oh, and before you write of Europe and Catholicism, remember where John Paul comes from. Pity you didn’t see the news on the box this evening, it was showing packed churches ALL OVER EUROPE with old, young and kids all praying for the safe recovery of our Pope. (And that included churches like the Russian Orthodox).
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I agree with you. America is not in much better shape than Europe - but that’s not saying a whole lot. We need a serious revival. Listen to what the Pope said:

To nourish ourselves with the word in order to be “servants of the word” in the work of evangelization: this is surely a priority for the Church at the dawn of the new millennium. Even in countries evangelized many centuries ago, the reality of a “Christian society” which, amid all the frailties which have always marked human life, measured itself explicitly on Gospel values, is now gone.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20010106_novo-millennio-ineunte_en.html

I would presume that “many centuries ago” would refer more to Europe in this case.

Further, Cardinal Ratzinger, whom I presume is more of an authority on this matter than any of us, seems to see a problem in Europe:

**Cardinal Ratzinger saw this tendency as a sign the “self-hatred of the West,” which he described as “something pathological.” Europe today, he said, is intent on gaining an understanding of the principles on which other civilizations are based, while ignoring its own. He said that “multiculturalism, which is so constantly and passionately encouraged and supported, sometimes amounts to an abandonment and disavowal of what is our own.”

The rise of Islam in recent years, the cardinal said, is partly the result of the new wealth of the Arabic world, but also partly due to the fact that Islam offers “a valid spiritual basis for people’s lives.” In that respect the vigor of the Islamic faith contrasts with the decline of Christian culture in Europe. Similarly, he said, the interest in Asian religious traditions reflects a failure of Europeans to grasp their own spiritual heritage. **

cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=29573
 
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Norwich:
I’ve come to the conclusion that the gulf between the States and Europe is far greater than that little bit of water in between.

I really don’t know where you get your information from about Europe in the States but if I was you I would be very very frightened, not of Europe but your own sources.

Yes, we have some problems with politicians and whether to include references to God in the European constitution but that is no greater than America’s problems with abortion or ethnicity.

Somebody made a comment about the Cathedrals being empty, here’s an invitation come to St Johns Norwich (it’s a Cathedral and we can seat 1400) on Saturday Night Mass, or any one of the three Sunday Masses, you’ll find it difficult to get a seat.

Oh, and before you write of Europe and Catholicism, remember where John Paul comes from. Pity you didn’t see the news on the box this evening, it was showing packed churches ALL OVER EUROPE with old, young and kids all praying for the safe recovery of our Pope. (And that included churches like the Russian Orthodox).
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Although I’m an American, & may I add a patriotic one, I agree with you. I guess I have a different perspective than most of my countrymen because I come from an Italian family & I still have close relatives in Italy (I’m there at least once a year). It is a sad fact that both Americans and Europeans often misunderstand each other simply because of the biased information we get.

I don’t see much of a future for the EU for a few reasons. First of all, there’s historical precedent: all the empires that tried to unite the continent over the centuries eventually failed, so why would an artificial, mostly economic union engineered by France & Germany - the only countries that seem to be profiting over this deal - succeed where the world’s most powerful monarchies failed?

However, the main reason for my assertion is the fact that so many of the original member countries are suffering greatly as a direct result of the curreny conversion & the total economic imbalance of the whole thing. Many Italians saw their life savings wiped out overnight because the lira was so devalued against the euro at the time of conversion. Italy, like many of the other member countries, relies heavily on tourism and that’s been really hurt as a result - the real danger is that it resonates throughout the whole Italian economy. Take this example: one of my cousins has a little business in a part of Rome that is way off the tourist radar, but she’s still struggling because her patrons make a living off the tourist trade, either directly or indirectly. The last time I was in Rome, I was looking at a leather jacket & the shop owner was practically begging me to buy it (he even did the alteration for free), and he said, “When you go back home, please tell the Americans to come back! We miss them!” He wasn’t just talking about our money - despite all the reports we got about mass anti-war rallies in Italy, I have yet to hear an Italian utter the slightest insult at me because I’m an American.

I’ll get off my soapbox now… :o except to say that you’re also quite right about Catholicism in Europe. It’s the same as it is here, i.e. struggling against many evil social trends, but working on nonetheless. Another example: my friend in Milan reports that the pro-life movement there is not only gaining, but comprised mostly of young people. The youth of Europe dearly love John Paul II, and many of them really are heeding his call. Like that fellow in the shop, I tell all my countrymen to go to Europe (especially Italy; I’m biased!), and my Italian cousins that have visited us here are telling everyone to come here! That;s the only way we can really learn about each other.
 
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