If you were European

[rlg94086]

EDB:

Gee, you’re awfully touchy when someone says something negative about Europe

Reminds me of the old schoolyard saying…“you can dish it out, but you can’t take it!” I especially like the point about our “ethnicity problems” . Of course, we are the only country that has this problem…right!

A VP for the German company I used to work for is black, originally grew up in Oakland, CA and has lived over 20 years in Germany. When I asked him about race relations in Europe, he said they are much better…unless you are East Indian, Muslim, etc., etc. Just because the problems are different, doesn’t mean they aren’t universal.

Oh, and on the EU, I vote “no”. That is, of course, if I was a european. I think the EU is just as much a problem for an individual country’s governance as the UN would be if it had more power. Just my :twocents: .

God Bless,

Robert.

 

[jlw]

Michael C:

I disagree with Frances on many things and see them as a country that stands for nothing. I would not vote to be in alliance with them on anything.

As Patton said: " I’d rather have a german division in fornt of me than a french one behind me".

:clapping:

 

[jlw]

TPJCatholic:

The Holy See’ and the Pope also begged the EU to include Christianity in their constitution…the EU refused to listen to the Holy See’ or the Pope.

Very very good point!!

 

[jlw]

Norwich,

What are the pros and cons for the UK by joining the EU?? It seems to me that you are giving up more than you are gaining. Am I wrong??

 

[INRI]

Norwich,
Please try to understand. Many Americans, especially those of the conservative stripe, approach government with a note of suspicion. You see it in our humor, for example the following phrases are considered humorous:
“Pro is to progress as Con is to …”
“I’m from the government, and I’m here to help”
It is a cultural thinking born out of our history as a frontier society. It doesn’t matter that most people live in the decidedly un-frontier suburbs now. Making a generalization, we are much more likely to promote private initiatives for the solution of societal problems than government initiatives. With the recent tsunami, much of the money from Europe came straight from the governments whereas a significant percentage of US aid came from private sources. The way I see it, providing for the poor via private charity enables growth of virtue, whereas doing it via government is merely rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s. In talking to my Spanish sister-in-law living in Barcelona, I often find she is much more likely to advocate a government intevention to a problem. It’s just a cultural difference, accept it.

Making another generalization, Americans, especially of the conservative stripe, are more skeptical of centralized efforts to remake society and we loathe taxation. Our American Revolution, however else you may choose to characterize it, was essentially a giant tax revolt. Aside from tossing off a monarch, there was no major upheaval in our social structure. In this, we are closer to the intellectual tradition of Edmund Burke, although he was generally skeptical of the American “experiment”. The French Revolution, by contrast, sought to remake society from top to bottom, starting with killing off the King and destroying the Church, root and branch. In this, they were acting in the intellectual tradition of Rousseau and Helvetius.
I remain suspicious that the EU constitution lies more in the latter strain of intellectual thought, which, ultimately, led to all the totalitarian impulses of communism and fascism.

 

[Fitz]

If I were European I think I might worry about what I would have to give up. On the other hand, I would also feel more protected to be part of it. There are probably good and bad results. If abortions were forced upon all members, then I think that would be one of the bad outcomes. If each member country maintains some autonomy, then I think it may have some very good outcomes.

I have not read their constitution or agreement.

 

[Emmy]

INRI:

Norwich,
With the recent tsunami, much of the money from Europe came straight from the governments whereas a significant percentage of US aid came from private sources.

I don´t know about the other countries but here was donated way more by private sources then from the government.

Emmy

 

[Maccabees]

Michael C:

I disagree with Frances on many things and see them as a country that stands for nothing. I would not vote to be in alliance with them on anything.

As Patton said: " I’d rather have a german division in fornt of me than a french one behind me".

French gave up to Germany in one day. They ceased being a world power when they refused to fight that day. If not for the U.S. they would be speaking German right now.
Heck they haven’t had a warrior since Napolean and he wasn’t even French he was Corsican.

 

[Franze]

Like an european and not british, I am going to vote No to the european constitution, for many reasons, not recongnition of christian roots, lost of power of my country, is a large constitution and very theorical and many other reasons, respect USA and Europe well, in all places there are problems, but I would like to say that I prefer a lot more Bush than Zapatero, because this president that I have is a lazy president, a bad person and hates the church, he think that we are slavized for the christianity and the equality between women and men didn´t produce before for this, but in my country an islamic man was imprisoned by writing a book where explains how to beat a woman without marks, and he says, this is in Koran, and in addition 3/11, but Zapatero are going to let islamic classes in the schools and putting more problems to catholics. Greetings

 

[Norwich]

INRI:

With the recent tsunami, much of the money from Europe came straight from the governments

As a general comment this is wrong. I don’t have the figures for other European countries but in the UK private donations have topped £200,000,000 sterling. At present exchange rates thats approximately $350,000,000 dollars US. I suspect that you will find the same applies to other European countries.

As for your sceticism regarding politics and politicians you are not, as a nation, exclusive in this regard. As far as respect goes most European politicians rank well below journalists and estate agents (real estate agents in the US). Having said this it would be stupid not to acknowledge that government has by far the best tools for ensuring equality and care of the less fortunate, the problem lies not with the tools but the tool user. In that way WE, the great unwashed as they say, are the controllers of the tool users, they do as we bid. Now if the WE are from an organisation with a voice more powerful than our WE their voice will be heard not ours. So it is with Europe, one small countries voice will be lost in the audio verbage of the European Parliament but, a united mass voice would be heard.

It is for this reason I give my allegience to the Catholic Church and don’t slavishly follow any one political party. I am convinced that if ALL Catholics followed the teaching of the Church the world would be a far better place. One of the ongoing comments that we often get when we promote dialogue with the Moslems is “Hitler wouldn’t have been stopped by tallking”. Actually that statement is wrong. Hitler would have been stopped if the right people had talked, i.e. all the German Catholics and Christians. If they had had the courage of their beliefs Hitler could never have carried out his progrom or even have gone to war.

Its the same argument that is used in the present day against the Moslems. You here the call “the Moderate Moslems must speak out against terrorism”, I agree, but we must also speak out, in one voice, in the way the Holy Father has asked. At present Europe and the Catholic Church have a great deal in common, neither is a cohesive unity with a single goal, both are fractionated and pulling in different directions. In Europe we have small cliques acting in a vacuum within the umbrella of Europe for their own ends, in the Church we have the same. For example, Abortion is wrong. I totally agree, but, if the killing of unborn children is wrong so is the killing of born children, or teenagers, or young adults, or old adults, or women or etc. etc. etc. You cannot decry one wrong but ignore or condone others.

I hear comments when I point out the commandment “Thou shalt not kill”. Oh no, the proper translation is “Thou shalt not murder”, therefore the implication is killing is acceptable, murder is not. But who makes the judgement between murder and killing? if its made by us and we apply it to the Church we are effectively reading the mind of God. Now, I don’t know about you but I am certainly not capable of reading the mind of God. Therefore as a Catholic I cannot differentiate between murder and killing in Gods mind, ergo, I must assume both are the same, ergo, abortion, war, famine, pestilance, old age are all killing. Some I have no control over, old age, pestilance etc, some I can affect, famine, abortion, others I can control personally, war, I wouldn’t fight it. and before anyone accuses me of being a cowardly pacifist, I have been there, worn the “T” shirt and seen the video as they say. I have seen war from the inside, it’s niether pretty, heroic or nice, believe me.

Now if you read into this a hint of criticism, you are right. I criticise those whose slavish devotion to a single political ideal or party or country blinds them to the world around them. If you insist on slavish devotion, make it to our Lord Jesus Christ, because unlike political parties or countries, you are not betting or hoping on improvements, you have no need to pray that they make the decision you want, a love of God and devotion to his Son along with a love of his Church and ALL his people, irrespective of race colour or creed and a willingness to speak out when your Church asks will raise such a voice in the world it will be heard in the heavens, then and only then will the world be a better place.

Yours in Christ.

 

[Michael_C]

Franze:

Like an european and not british, I am going to vote No to the european constitution, for many reasons, not recongnition of christian roots, lost of power of my country, is a large constitution and very theorical and many other reasons, respect USA and Europe well, in all places there are problems, but I would like to say that I prefer a lot more Bush than Zapatero, because this president that I have is a lazy president, a bad person and hates the church, he think that we are slavized for the christianity and the equality between women and men didn´t produce before for this, but in my country an islamic man was imprisoned by writing a book where explains how to beat a woman without marks, and he says, this is in Koran, and in addition 3/11, but Zapatero are going to let islamic classes in the schools and putting more problems to catholics. Greetings

This seems to be the policy of governments worldwide (At least in the USA). Weaken Christianity and allow any other religion to flourish.

 

[INRI]

Norwich:

It is for this reason I give my allegience to the Catholic Church and don’t slavishly follow any one political party. I am convinced that if ALL Catholics followed the teaching of the Church the world would be a far better place.

Why are you accusing us of slavishly following the beliefs of any one political party? I find a lot to criticize in both parties. I, for one, do not support the death penalty, which is supported by members of both major parties but especially the Republican party. And I do think that the Rep’s could be more solicitous of the plight of the poor. I agree with you that if ALL Catholics followed the teaching of the Church the world would be a better place. However, since seldom does any one political party embody a truly Catholic worldview, we must choose that one that is the closest. When one party supports a position in support of abortion (causes 1.5 million deaths in the US alone), is supportive of gay marriage, is in support of forcing Catholic hospitals to perform abortion, and is pro-euthanasia, then active support of that party becomes unthinkable, no matter how much I would like any of their other policies. And neither the war in Iraq nor support of the death penalty rise to the same level as abortion. About both, there can be legitimate disagreement. Abortion is non-negotiable.

Norwich:

One of the ongoing comments that we often get when we promote dialogue with the Moslems is “Hitler wouldn’t have been stopped by tallking”. Actually that statement is wrong. Hitler would have been stopped if the right people had talked, i.e. all the German Catholics and Christians. If they had had the courage of their beliefs Hitler could never have carried out his progrom or even have gone to war.

The problem is, human nature doesn’t change. Before Hitler came to power, plenty of people spoke against him. Once he came to power, it was dangerous to do so. Most people don’t have the soul of a martyr. And the world is full of governments run along the same lines of fear and intimidation. One of them used to be Iraq.

Norwich:

For example, Abortion is wrong. I totally agree, but, if the killing of unborn children is wrong so is the killing of born children, or teenagers, or young adults, or old adults, or women or etc. etc. etc. You cannot decry one wrong but ignore or condone others.

OK, we’re against all killing. Fair enough. But who is FOR the killing of born children, teenagers, young and old adults, and women etc. etc. etc. It is a straw man argument. That people get killed in warfare is a fact of life and regrettable. Are there any instances where war is justifiable, in your view?

Norwich:

Now, I don’t know about you but I am certainly not capable of reading the mind of God.

I notice that in the next sentence you proceed to try to read the mind of God.

Norwich:

Therefore as a Catholic I cannot differentiate between murder and killing in Gods mind, ergo, I must assume both are the same, ergo, abortion, war, famine, pestilance, old age are all killing. Some I have no control over, old age, pestilance etc, some I can affect, famine, abortion, others I can control personally, war, I wouldn’t fight it. and before anyone accuses me of being a cowardly pacifist, I have been there, worn the “T” shirt and seen the video as they say. I have seen war from the inside, it’s niether pretty, heroic or nice, believe me.

I am glad that you have the perspective of fighting in war. None of us actually WANTS war. The difference is that we see instances where it is justifiable and you don’t. I’m not going to accuse you of being cowardly, but you are a pacifist. Pure pacifism, while seemingly admirable, is unworkable as long as there is fallen human nature. The world is full of nasty, dangerous, evil men with way more ordinance than decency. If we leave them alone, they most certainly won’t return the favor. By leaving these evil men to their own devices, you encourage even worse things to happen. Haven’t you learned? Appeasement of dictators never works. Dishonest men do not negotiate honorably. Peaceful passive resistance only works if your opponent has a conscience. And evil governments always find a way around sanctions. It is a good thing your government was made of sterner stuff than you when the Kaiser invaded France, when Hitler invaded France, when the Soviet Union took over half of Europe, when Saddam invaded Kuwait…etc. etc. etc.

 

[Brad]

Norwich:

As a general comment this is wrong. I don’t have the figures for other European countries but in the UK private donations have topped £200,000,000 sterling. At present exchange rates thats approximately $350,000,000 dollars US. I suspect that you will find the same applies to other European countries.

As for your sceticism regarding politics and politicians you are not, as a nation, exclusive in this regard. As far as respect goes most European politicians rank well below journalists and estate agents (real estate agents in the US). Having said this it would be stupid not to acknowledge that government has by far the best tools for ensuring equality and care of the less fortunate, the problem lies not with the tools but the tool user. In that way WE, the great unwashed as they say, are the controllers of the tool users, they do as we bid. Now if the WE are from an organisation with a voice more powerful than our WE their voice will be heard not ours. So it is with Europe, one small countries voice will be lost in the audio verbage of the European Parliament but, a united mass voice would be heard.

It is for this reason I give my allegience to the Catholic Church and don’t slavishly follow any one political party. I am convinced that if ALL Catholics followed the teaching of the Church the world would be a far better place. One of the ongoing comments that we often get when we promote dialogue with the Moslems is “Hitler wouldn’t have been stopped by tallking”. Actually that statement is wrong. Hitler would have been stopped if the right people had talked, i.e. all the German Catholics and Christians. If they had had the courage of their beliefs Hitler could never have carried out his progrom or even have gone to war.

Its the same argument that is used in the present day against the Moslems. You here the call “the Moderate Moslems must speak out against terrorism”, I agree, but we must also speak out, in one voice, in the way the Holy Father has asked. At present Europe and the Catholic Church have a great deal in common, neither is a cohesive unity with a single goal, both are fractionated and pulling in different directions. In Europe we have small cliques acting in a vacuum within the umbrella of Europe for their own ends, in the Church we have the same. For example, Abortion is wrong. I totally agree, but, if the killing of unborn children is wrong so is the killing of born children, or teenagers, or young adults, or old adults, or women or etc. etc. etc. You cannot decry one wrong but ignore or condone others.

I hear comments when I point out the commandment “Thou shalt not kill”. Oh no, the proper translation is “Thou shalt not murder”, therefore the implication is killing is acceptable, murder is not. But who makes the judgement between murder and killing? if its made by us and we apply it to the Church we are effectively reading the mind of God. Now, I don’t know about you but I am certainly not capable of reading the mind of God. Therefore as a Catholic I cannot differentiate between murder and killing in Gods mind, ergo, I must assume both are the same, ergo, abortion, war, famine, pestilance, old age are all killing. Some I have no control over, old age, pestilance etc, some I can affect, famine, abortion, others I can control personally, war, I wouldn’t fight it. and before anyone accuses me of being a cowardly pacifist, I have been there, worn the “T” shirt and seen the video as they say. I have seen war from the inside, it’s niether pretty, heroic or nice, believe me.

Now if you read into this a hint of criticism, you are right. I criticise those whose slavish devotion to a single political ideal or party or country blinds them to the world around them. If you insist on slavish devotion, make it to our Lord Jesus Christ, because unlike political parties or countries, you are not betting or hoping on improvements, you have no need to pray that they make the decision you want, a love of God and devotion to his Son along with a love of his Church and ALL his people, irrespective of race colour or creed and a willingness to speak out when your Church asks will raise such a voice in the world it will be heard in the heavens, then and only then will the world be a better place.

Yours in Christ.

I regret your notion that your particular views are in line with the Catholic Church and the views of people like myself are only in line with the Republican party.

Just war is a Catholic tradition. Your notion that any war (because any war involves killing) is wrong is completely contradictory to just war tradition - so you cannot say your view is a monopoly on Church teaching. You can have your viewpoint on a particular war. I can have mine. We can both be good Catholics.

continued…

 

[Brad]

Regarding dialogue, I would like to know what you plan for dialogue with Islamic extremists would be. You frequently speak of this dialogue but you have to go deeper. How would you implement this plan? Who would dialogue with who? For how long? What result steps would we expect and what would be contingency plans for failed dialogue?

Saying that it is “stupid” to not acknowledge government has the best methodology to solve social issues is to fail to acknowledge the failures of government on social issues. Welfare has been a failure. Government home building projects have been a failure. Social legislation on protection of life and social institutions have been failures. Government health care has been a failure. Througout all of history, private, faith-based institutions have a phenomenal success record. It was private Christians that created our schools, hospitals, and churches in America. It was private Christians that helped the sick, clothed the naked, and fed the poor. The reason for this is very simple. The Gospel of Jesus Christ implores the followers of Him to do these good works. As you said, if all Catholics lived as “true” Catholics, the world would be much better. So, those Catholics that do pursue the good works have no other motivation except to do good for the Lord and their neighbor. Government workers, on the other hand, have a primary motivation of keeping their job and supporting their own families. Their processes are mechanical and often tied up in red tape. There may be may government workers that truly do care, but they are restricted by those around them.

It is interesting that the same people in the Catholic Church that say it isn’t right to legislate morality on abortion are also the people that seem to want the government to be a Catholic Church and do all the things the Church is supposed to be doing.

The issue here is evangelization - both within the Catholic Church so that the Gospel is spread and the good works are done from the inside (heart) out; and outside the Church so that we show Muslims and other faiths the light that is Jesus Christ - for it is only in Him that anyone will ultimately succeed inside of himself/herself.

Only once that personal success of a personal relationship with Christ will someone’s heart be changed to do the good works that will change the world.

Mother Teresa changed the world, not by changing the government, but by being the Church to the world.

I agree, the Catholics in Germany should have spoken up to help stop Hitler. So too the Catholics of the world today must speak up to stop terrorism. Today, we do too much apologizing for our faith. If our faith is true and Jesus is God and He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life - we only do damage to our mandate to evanglize and damage to those we refuse to show the truth to - if we hide the Light under a basket.

 

[Norwich]

Brad,

You always hold to the so called “Just War” theory but you are never able to explain the difference between murder and killing. When you can differentiate between those two and justify it within Catholicism and the teachings of our Lord you can justly claim to read the mind of God. I can’t.

As far as the government goes I did not say methodology, I said TOOLS. that means the recources, the communications and the people to carry out the tasks WE set for them.

Communication. I repeat (I’m fed up of repeating) we talk to the moderate Moslem, thats the one who is no different to you, I or anyone, he is the one who believes all that he is told by those he sees to be in authority, exactly the same as we do with Pope John Paul and all his predecessors.We demonstrate to him our belief in his life, our understanding of his ways and our desire to help him develop AS HE SEES FIT, not as we think he should.

You talk about evengelisation, yes we should but, evangelisation takes many forms and the old days of beating someone over the head with the bible are long gone. Your right, Sr. Theresa evangelised in her own way, she did it by treating ALL Indians, she didn’t ask are you Moslem, are you Sikh, are you Hindu, she simply asked are you a person.

I also did not say that you cannot legislate against abortion, what I said was for the Church, thats the WHOLE Church to rise up and cry against ALL forms of killing, that strangly enough includes abortion.

Its interesting that you agree about the German Catholics, but what would be your reaction if you were asked to speak out about injustice in all the world, wars involving your (and my) country and to condemn any form of state sponsored oppression perpetrated by ALL nations on others? I wonder if you would look very carefully at your own country and be willing to condemn their behaviour? In other words would you be prepared to put your religion before your patriotism?

 

[Brad]

Norwich:

Brad,

You always hold to the so called “Just War” theory but you are never able to explain the difference between murder and killing. When you can differentiate between those two and justify it within Catholicism and the teachings of our Lord you can justly claim to read the mind of God. I can’t.

Why speak so absolutely when you never asked me?

Murder is intentionally killing someone. Killing is accidentally killing someone or killing someone in self-defense. The question in both is “who is responsible”. You seem to think that any nation that engages in war and utilizes weapons that result in death is guilty of murder. Defining responsibility is much more complex than that. Would you be guilty of murder if you killed someone that was lethally attacking a family member?

Norwich:

As far as the government goes I did not say methodology, I said TOOLS. that means the recources, the communications and the people to carry out the tasks WE set for them.

In a democracy, all people have different ideas as to how to use thoes resources and tools. That is why it is better for a person to be taxed minimally so that he/she can choose of his/her free will (that God gave to them) what to do with these resources. This is better than forcing someone else outside of his/her free will to do something he/she doesn’t want to do.

Norwich:

Communication. I repeat (I’m fed up of repeating) we talk to the moderate Moslem, thats the one who is no different to you, I or anyone, he is the one who believes all that he is told by those he sees to be in authority, exactly the same as we do with Pope John Paul and all his predecessors.We demonstrate to him our belief in his life, our understanding of his ways and our desire to help him develop AS HE SEES FIT, not as we think he should.

A) This doesn’t work - ask the peaceful Christians that were beheaded

B) Why would you have a desire to believe and help develop his ways as he sees fit in following his leader if those ways involve committing sin (killing). That is contrary to the Gospel. You are to help your brother out of sin.

Norwich:

You talk about evengelisation, yes we should but, evangelisation takes many forms and the old days of beating someone over the head with the bible are long gone. Your right, Sr. Theresa evangelised in her own way, she did it by treating ALL Indians, she didn’t ask are you Moslem, are you Sikh, are you Hindu, she simply asked are you a person.

She sure did - the Catholic Church has always done this well. You are asking the government to do it when their track record is doing it poorly.

Norwich:

Its interesting that you agree about the German Catholics, but what would be your reaction if you were asked to speak out about injustice in all the world, wars involving your (and my) country and to condemn any form of state sponsored oppression perpetrated by ALL nations on others? I wonder if you would look very carefully at your own country and be willing to condemn their behaviour? In other words would you be prepared to put your religion before your patriotism?

I do put my religion before my patriotism. There are many things I do not like about what goes on in my country as a result of my religion. But I do not believe that the U.S. sponsors oppression - quite the opposite. That’s the lingo of terrorists and it comes from the evil one himself - a liar from the beginning.