If your GF or BF wanted to save kissing for marriage

[DarkLight]

I’ve gone way the past point to care if the cost of not coming off as creepy means I have to respect boundaries that are non-existent. Neither is the label worth losing sleep over if the woman is one to talk about being ‘normal.’ Nobody thinks I’m creepy save for online CAFers.

My experience with manipulative boundary police is just as valid as your experience with lecherous men. You say I give a creepy vibe? I’m afraid it’s only fair to say that the reactionary defenses to boundaries on this thread remind far too closely of Christian alarmists in general.

Actually, the point I was making is that what you’re describing from women is exactly how many of us would behave towards a man that comes across as creepy. If a man impresses me as creepy, I set farther out boundaries with him than with other men and I don’t provide him with explanations. I almost certainly don’t tell him it’s because he’s creepy (because really that never ends well). So it’s worth considering if some of the “hypocrisy” you’re seeing is exactly how a woman might react to a man who impresses her as creepy or potentially troublesome.

If you don’t want a new thread feel free to PM me anything, btw - or if you just want help getting a clear title.

 

[Xantippe]

Alternate title, “If a woman kisses a man I know, she has to kiss me, too, or it’s not fair.”

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

“It’s unfair and hypocritical when women aren’t exactly as physical with me as they are with other men.”

I wrote a blog title that was just as long and sophisticated as that one.

Nobody still got it.

But if you insist, at least make it shorter: Relationship Boundaries: Who’s more accountable?

Actually, the point I was making is that what you’re describing from women is exactly how many of us would behave towards a man that comes across as creepy.

Here’s something you can carry to the new thread. There is one problem with your reaction: You think you’re not alone. She’s the one with the problem. (And for me, that’s not just one woman I’ve met! )

There are cases, much like mine, where the woman is the only one who finds me creepy. It’s she who’s acting out.

Everyone else around her just snickers at scoffs because the real truth is that I just walked through the same sham-of-a-boundary that every other guy just walked through. That’s the curse of being in denial and creating boundaries that you neither respect or believe: Nobody will do it for you.

 

[Mulligan2]

I would end the relationship, as our values would be incompatible.

However, as kissing usually occurs early in a relationship - how much of a “relationship” can one actually have before this topic comes up, both people realize they are incompatible, and politely go their separate ways???

 

[phil_at_dayboro]

Very strange that people would actually follow this practise ,

 

[BHL_20]

It would seem to me – if a kiss was enough for him to loose control of his passions – he would not be someone I’d recommend marrying.

It would seem to me, that if making out did not significantly arouse him, then either he’s done it too many times before or there’s something wrong with his hormone levels

We also see posts from men inquiring about the possibility of a marriage with no sex, since they don’t feel comfortable with sex.

How convenient, I was planning to start a thread to inquire about such a possibility myself. Can someone give me some links, so that I don’t duplicate existing threads?

I think that a seriously-dating couple should definitely kiss (with tongues) and even make out so that sex on the wedding night (or whenever after the wedding) is not a total shock. I can’t even imagine kissing my husband for the first time on my wedding night–I would be terrified of our physicality and our emotions.

Personally, I wouldn’t worry about social conventions. Who says one have to have sex on one’s wedding night? If they feel uncomfortable, why can’t they ease themselves into the physicality of the relationship at their own pace.
(if there is something seriously wrong/sinful about not doing it on the wedding night, I apologise and I take this back, but I’ve never heard of a reason compelling the couple to have sex first night)

Well, courting couples who follow the “Duggar rules” do not practice ANY kissing, not even a kiss on the cheek or “peck on the lips” type kissing. They also do not practice hand-holding, or “full frontal hugging”. According to Michelle Duggar’s own TLC blog, at one point there was even a family discussion whether a couple “high-fiving” was acceptable. Pretty much the only physical contact found acceptable is the “side hug” in which the woman hugs the man from the side. I think this is certainly much too restrictive.

Pecking, hand-holding and frontal hugging are alright but I find it ironic that everyone here is ok with making out before marriage. It was on these forums that I learned making out was a sin. It was because of answers from other forum members here that I ended up convincing myself that a relationship without kissing can work.

 

[Xantippe]

Pecking, hand-holding and frontal hugging are alright but I find it ironic that everyone here is ok with making out before marriage. It was on these forums that I learned making out was a sin. It was because of answers from other forum members here that I ended up convincing myself that a relationship without kissing can work.

I strongly suspect that people may be envisioning different things. When I say “Yay, kissing!” for serious boyfriends and girlfriends I mean passionate kissing with hands kept in appropriate locations, not passionate kissing while horizontal, in private, and simultaneously giving one’s sweetie a thorough rub down to the point of “losing control” and “accidentally” having sex or almost “accidentally” having sex. What I’m envisioning as appropriate for serious boyfriends and girlfriends is about a football field’s distance away from that second scenario.

In practice, I think this is reasonably clear. If I’m dating and suddenly overcome by the desire for sin, that means that whatever I’m doing is probably too much (although it might be OK at a different time).

 

[Walking_Home]

It would seem to me, that if making out did not significantly arouse him, then either he’s done it too many times before or there’s something wrong with his hormone levels

How convenient, I was planning to start a thread to inquire about such a possibility myself. Can someone give me some links, so that I don’t duplicate existing threads?

Personally, I wouldn’t worry about social conventions. Who says one have to have sex on one’s wedding night? If they feel uncomfortable, why can’t they ease themselves into the physicality of the relationship at their own pace.
(if there is something seriously wrong/sinful about not doing it on the wedding night, I apologise and I take this back, but I’ve never heard of a reason compelling the couple to have sex first night)

Pecking, hand-holding and frontal hugging are alright but I find it ironic that everyone here is ok with making out before marriage. It was on these forums that I learned making out was a sin. It was because of answers from other forum members here that I ended up convincing myself that a relationship without kissing can work.

 

[bmaj]

I voted “Other” and, like another poster, believe it depends on the reason. I dated a wonderful guy for quite awhile before he gave me more than a very slight peck on the lips. Had to initiate a bit longer kisses from him myself, which seemed strange to me. I broke off the relationship after almost a year, but many years later when we met again he told me he’s now gay and “married” to his partner. I was floored, but I often think his hesitation to give more than a tiny kiss was probably connected to his conflicted feelings about gender attraction. I never had a clue about that at the time (and don’t know if he did or not), but I’m very thankful we didn’t ever marry since I likely would have if I hadn’t met someone else I was attracted to. Just something to think about if a BF or GF wants to reserve kissing for marriage. There are other reasons which could be involved.

 

[Luvz2travel]

Good luck finding any adult who would date someone with no kissing.

 

[12345678]

Pecking, hand-holding and frontal hugging are alright but I find it ironic that everyone here is ok with making out before marriage. It was on these forums that I learned making out was a sin. It was because of answers from other forum members here that I ended up convincing myself that a relationship without kissing can work.

You are correct, it is wrong for people that are GF/BF to make out and it is a shame that you are getting the impression from people on this thread that it is ok. Also, regarding another post, just because someone wants to be chaste doesn’t mean they are gay (I know there are examples out there, but there are also examples of promiscuous people out there in heterosexual relationships that later say they “are gay”).

 

[ialsop]

Lost Wanderer, have you ever met a woman OR man who has rules for chastity but actually applies them to everybody?

Or have you met anybody with “true chastity”? You expressed concern over “false chastity”. Is ALL chastity false? What are your thoughts?

 

[Andre1000]

Actually, I would find this cool that my GF wants to be better than not sinning.

 

[MJJean]

Lost Wanderer, have you ever met a woman OR man who has rules for chastity but actually applies them to everybody?

Or have you met anybody with “true chastity”? You expressed concern over “false chastity”. Is ALL chastity false? What are your thoughts?

I’ve been wanting to chime in on this one if you all don’t mind…

I know a LOT of women who practice “false chastity”, otherwise known as playing hard to get. They don’t actually want to be chaste, but they don’t want a guy to think they are “easy”, even if they are! Some of them actually want the guy to be a bit pushy so they can say “Well, it wasn’t me who wanted to do XYZ! It was all him. I just went along with it because . By the way, it was great!”

Personally, I find those women extremely annoying. They make the rest of us look bad. I always want to scream “Woman up and own your sexuality and morals. Be honest about it with yourself and everyone else! You’re a grown woman long past the time when you should have realized A) game playing is total BS and B) Who do you think you’re fooling? I mean, really,how many times do we, your friends, have to hear about how you “aren’t that kind of woman!” when you keep behaving exactly like that kind of woman with pretty much every guy you date??”

That behavior confuses men and causes nothing but headaches for those who actually do want to remain chaste.

 

[Xantippe]

Actually, I would find this cool that my GF wants to be better than not sinning.

What if it turns out that you get married and a) she isn’t really that into you or b) isn’t interested in physical intimacy or c) isn’t interested in physical intimacy with persons of your sex?

That would be kind of a bummer.

It’s important to be able to differentiate between chastity and disinterest.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Well, the difference between the poll results and what people are willing to post, continues to be very interesting. At the time I’m typing this, the “continue the relationship and respect the person’s boundaries” option has 27 votes, while the “end the relationship” option has 26 votes. Pretty much a tie.

Yet, it seems the majority of posts are from those who lean towards ending the relationship, and there’s a fair number of people who think that a person who is against kissing pre-marriage must have something wrong with them; that they must be gay, asexual, controlled by their parents, etc.

And while I realize kissing is NOT ncessarily a sexual act. it does strike me as ironic that most of the accusations hurled at the hypothetical non-kissers, are almost exactly the same as the accusations many people who commit to no sex before marriage are subjected to. Essentially, that a person who holds a no-kissing stance isn’t just someone with a certain set of values that may or may not be valid, but is “abnormal” in some way.

As for the “should Catholics be making out” debate, I think that in order to have such a debate, we must clarify what “making out” means. Some just mean “passionate kissing”, some mean “kissing with tongue”, some mean “kissing with some caressing of non-intimate parts”, some mean “kissing with stimulation of breasts or genitals”, some interpret it as “everything except actual intercourse”.

I think many people would find the first three definitions to be acceptable behavior for “chaste” dating, while most would find the last two definitions to be unacceptable.

 

[Andre1000]

What if it turns out that you get married and a) she isn’t really that into you or b) isn’t interested in physical intimacy or c) isn’t interested in physical intimacy with persons of your sex?

That would be kind of a bummer.

It’s important to be able to differentiate between chastity and disinterest.

Why would she marry me if she was not interested? Sure when she doesn’t want sex than she is uninterested too, or what.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

What if it turns out that you get married and a) she isn’t really that into you or b) isn’t interested in physical intimacy or c) isn’t interested in physical intimacy with persons of your sex?

That would be kind of a bummer.

It’s important to be able to differentiate between chastity and disinterest.

Xantippe, I agree that there is a difference between chastity and disinterest. However, it seems that most of the pro-kissing posters here, are tending to really presume that a person who holds a no-kissing stance MUST be acting out of disinterest, not chastity. That’s the assumption that I find questionable.

(It just reminds me a similar topic in a non-Catholic Christian forum, which I won’t name as it certainly does not fit Catholic sexual morality standards. This was about a couple that DID kiss and hug and otherwise engage in non-sexual physical intimacy, but the woman was concerned that the man had never, to her knowledge, been physically aroused during those activities; many posters suggested she dump the man immediately because he surely must be either a closet homosexual or afflicted with an abnormally low sex drive, and that if they married, she was dooming herself to a sexless marriage at best.)

 

[ialsop]

I’ve been wanting to chime in on this one if you all don’t mind…

I know a LOT of women who practice “false chastity”, otherwise known as playing hard to get. They don’t actually want to be chaste, but they don’t want a guy to think they are “easy”, even if they are! Some of them actually want the guy to be a bit pushy so they can say “Well, it wasn’t me who wanted to do XYZ! It was all him. I just went along with it because . By the way, it was great!”

Personally, I find those women extremely annoying. They make the rest of us look bad. I always want to scream “Woman up and own your sexuality and morals. Be honest about it with yourself and everyone else! You’re a grown woman long past the time when you should have realized A) game playing is total BS and B) Who do you think you’re fooling? I mean, really,how many times do we, your friends, have to hear about how you “aren’t that kind of woman!” when you keep behaving exactly like that kind of woman with pretty much every guy you date??”

That behavior confuses men and causes nothing but headaches for those who actually do want to remain chaste.

Well, that makes a lot of sense I can understand that. Still, we shouldnt discount true chastity…

 

[ialsop]

Xantippe,** I agree that there is a difference between chastity and disinterest. However, it seems that most of the pro-kissing posters here, are tending to really presume that a person who holds a no-kissing stance MUST be acting out of disinterest, not chastity. That’s the assumption that I find questionable. **

(It just reminds me a similar topic in a non-Catholic Christian forum, which I won’t name as it certainly does not fit Catholic sexual morality standards. This was about a couple that DID kiss and hug and otherwise engage in non-sexual physical intimacy, but the woman was concerned that the man had never, to her knowledge, been physically aroused during those activities; many posters suggested she dump the man immediately because he surely must be either a closet homosexual or afflicted with an abnormally low sex drive, and that if they married, she was dooming herself to a sexless marriage at best.)

EXACTLY that is what i find so odd…