If you're looking for a debate

[Vinko]

Edwin has failed in understanding WHAT the Catholic Church teaches.

Again… he and the likes of him view it as an “either/or” thing… not an “and/both” thing.

Edwin, a Catholic DOES trust in the Holy Spirt. A Catholic DOES walk in the Spirit. A Catholic Does listen to the Holy Spirit.

However, we have a Church that was left by Christ to guide us. How will we know???

What you blame us for… you do yourself!

You walk “in the Spirit” according to YOUR magesterium… which is either YOU… or some pastor… or a group that you belong to… which has a “leader as well.”

You will probably also say… “well… I just go with Scripture alone.”

Well… Scripture DOES need a teacher. An interpreter.

And Protestants do NOT agree on the “essentials.” I can show you a nice little handy chart that illustrates ALL the difference (big ones) within nonCatholics.

Be careful what you criticize us for.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vinko:

Edwin has failed in understanding WHAT the Catholic Church teaches.

Again… he and the likes of him view it as an “either/or” thing… not an “and/both” thing.

Edwin, a Catholic DOES trust in the Holy Spirt. A Catholic DOES walk in the Spirit. A Catholic Does listen to the Holy Spirit.

However, we have a Church that was left by Christ to guide us. How will we know???

What you blame us for… you do yourself!

You walk “in the Spirit” according to YOUR magesterium… which is either YOU… or some pastor… or a group that you belong to… which has a “leader as well.”

You will probably also say… “well… I just go with Scripture alone.”

Well… Scripture DOES need a teacher. An interpreter.

And Protestants do NOT agree on the “essentials.” I can show you a nice little handy chart that illustrates ALL the difference (big ones) within nonCatholics.

Be careful what you criticize us for.

Here’s a challenge for those who claim to be able to intrepret the Bible for themselves, with no guidance from the Magisterium. Take this verse from John (19,25):

25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. Tell us how many women were standing by the cross. Justify you answer.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[edwinG]

john doran:

fair enough, i guess.

can you explain to us how, in trusting your understanding of scripture, you are not “trusting in man”?

could you also explain how you know you’re walking in the spirit when countless others believe just as strongly that they’re walking in the spirit even though they disagree with you about many passages of scripture? how do you know?

thanks.

Hi john doran,
Thank you for you kind post.Being led by the Holy Spirit comes by asking and it is a process so for me at least I started off slowly and since I have been growing in confidence and understanding. It is easier if I give you an example. I live my life in a very simple routine and when anything happens to change that I know that He has some work for me to do. Last Sunday, I was at the usual bus stop and my bus drove straight past me as I failed to see it coming. Then another bus that was going my way drove past and then I knew from experience that God had work for me to do. He always helps me in everything, even down to catching a bus so if I miss two buses there is no doubt He is wanting me for some reason. Now there was an old very dirty man there who had one watery eye and a socket. He could not catch a bus maybe because he could not read or because his eyesight was too poor. He did not wear shoes and he probably hadnt washed in years. A man he approached wouldnt talk to him. I caught his eye and said the name of the place I was going to but he couldnt understand and when he spoke to me I couldnt understand him. Then I prayed and almost instantly a young man came and spoke to me in English. He had seen me handing out Christian literature on the side of the street. I asked him to help the old man catch a bus. In 15 seconds that old man’s bus came and in another 20 seconds our bus came because that young man was going to the same place. He wants to come to church with his girlfriend. Also at that time I was feeling a little unloved so now I felt high, knowing I had done some small thing for Him. How He loves all people, even dirty old half blind heathens.
To scripture, well, as Paul says, we all know in part and yes we are wrong some times but when we are wrong we are corrected. Now if our pride is not rearing its ugly head we will humbly submit to correction, otherwise, we have fallen like the poor Jews, from blessings to pride to being humbled. If we wont humble ourselves God will help us publicly as He wants to save us even at the cost of our pride.
You may not know until a deeper truth is revealed. But the heart recognises it and rejoices. The Holy Spirit is always helping us to worship Him as well. Songs and words of worship just well up in our heart and in the middle of some thing we find ourselves in the midst of worship. How beautiful He is to us. I used to find worship distastefull when I was a child in Christ but now it is joyfull to me and lifts me up. I have come a long way, but my journey is still no where near complete.
If you have further questions please ask.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Vinko:

Edwin has failed in understanding WHAT the Catholic Church teaches.

Again… he and the likes of him view it as an “either/or” thing… not an “and/both” thing.

Edwin, a Catholic DOES trust in the Holy Spirt. A Catholic DOES walk in the Spirit. A Catholic Does listen to the Holy Spirit.

However, we have a Church that was left by Christ to guide us. How will we know???

What you blame us for… you do yourself!

You walk “in the Spirit” according to YOUR magesterium… which is either YOU… or some pastor… or a group that you belong to… which has a “leader as well.”

You will probably also say… “well… I just go with Scripture alone.”

Well… Scripture DOES need a teacher. An interpreter.

And Protestants do NOT agree on the “essentials.” I can show you a nice little handy chart that illustrates ALL the difference (big ones) within nonCatholics.

Be careful what you criticize us for.

Hi Vinko,
I have read what you say and yes your words confirm you dont yet have the Holy Spirit guiding you. Please try, as He wants you to have the Holy Spirit come alive to you. Ask forgiveness and call on Him and tell Him you will submit to Him alone, to God and to give you the Holy Spirit.
Unfortunately, and I am not sure, but if you have Mary mixed up with your worship then God cant use you because you will give the glory to her and not to Him. He doesnt want you to lead people away from Him but to Him directly.
I am sorry if this offends, but it does need to be said. Please remember your church is not against your praying and worshiping only Him so if you want to advance and feel the comfort and security of the Holy Spirit leave Mary out of the equation. With Mary you have probably had many years, but have not advanced. Now give Him alone, God alone, without Mary, a chance in your life for 4 months and see what happens. I am not asking you to move from the catholic church.
Please try
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

vern humphrey:

Here’s a challenge for those who claim to be able to intrepret the Bible for themselves, with no guidance from the Magisterium. Take this verse from John (19,25):

25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. Tell us how many women were standing by the cross. Justify you answer.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Hi vern humphrey,
If you are sincere then you should realise that no one knows all of the bible. As Paul says , we know in part, the part being that which pertains to our work for Him. Only a fool would think he knew the answer to every question in the bible. I dont pretend to understand all of the bible.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[adstrinity]

Sure, I’ll join. BUT, look at DocDoom. He opposes ALL Christianity, it seems.

…Oh, SUUUUUUREEE, I say I’ll join and POOF it dissapears.

 

[Darrel]

Protestants are so stuck in scripture that they almost assume that Jesus is not around now. If God reveals some truth to the Catholic Church they say… “oh how can you support that in scripture?”. I would ask them what has God revealed to the protestant Church over the years?

-D

 

[adstrinity]

ACTUALLY, did you see how NON-CHRISTIAN they are over in that folder?!! It’s kinda sad. Checking out other posts & all… We’ll see, my membership is pending…

 

[Mijoy2]

vern humphrey:

But they want to TELL us what we believe – then attack us for supposedly believing it.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

.

This struck me as funny. Just this morning, on a local Boston talk-radio program ( a purely secular program) the topic was something of the sort “Do evangelicals and thier preaching nature trouble you”?

A well spoken evangelical, Born again Chritian called in. One of the hosts of the show, who happens to be Catholic, asked the caller if Roman Catholics fell into the catagory of born again, Christ centered Christians? The caller said (and I paraphrase):

Not really no. They have to go through hoops in Catholicism. I think there are something like 7-steps (i assumed he was refering to the sacrements) they have to go through for salvation.

So the sacrememts are a 7-step program to salvation. We “have to” tolerate receiving the body and blood and of our savior. Hmmmm, talk about a misunderstanding!!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Mijoy2:

This struck me as funny. Just this morning, on a local Boston talk-radio program ( a purely secular program) the topic was something of the sort “Do evangelicals and thier preaching nature trouble you”?

A well spoken evangelical, Born again Chritian called in. One of the hosts of the show, who happens to be Catholic, asked the caller if Roman Catholics fell into the catagory of born again, Christ centered Christians? The caller said (and I paraphrase):

Not really no. They have to go through hoops in Catholicism. I think there are something like 7-steps (i assumed he was refering to the sacrements) they have to go through for salvation.

So the sacrememts are a 7-step program to salvation. We “have to” tolerate receiving the body and blood and of our savior. Hmmmm, talk about a misunderstanding!!

Typical – yet he wouldn’t hesitate to tell us we’re wrong in what we believe (whatever it may be.)http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

 

[jax8686]

edwinG:

but if you have Mary mixed up with your worship then God cant use you because you will give the glory to her and not to Him.

Edwin, i would like to clarify, for one, that NO Catholics, who calls themselves Catholic “worship” Mary as almost all protestants seem to missunderstand. As Catholics, we try to love, and live like Jesus, and did not Jesus follow the commandment that said “Honor thy father and mother” ? so in HONORING mary, not worshiping her, we are living more like our Savior…

Christ established a church, which if you follow history, is the Catholic church, to be an earthly representative of Himself. He gave the church the authority to properly interpret scripture with the guidance of the holy spirit. If every man was to be his own theologean, as the protestant Sola Scriptura depicts, then EVERY man, woman and child would need to 1 be able to read, 2 have access to their own personal copy of the bible(which contrary to *Sola Scripturas *rule that nothign can be added or taken out, was changed by the very inventor of Sola Scriptura), 3 have access to reference materials and commentaries, 4 have adequate leisure time to study, 5 have sufficient critical thinking(barely found in average college students), and that does not account for the lack of printing press, or cash based economy, or ability to travel over long distances easily in the earlier centuries after Christs death. thus, the people of the world NEED an authority to guide and teach them the true meanings of the bible, history, and tradition, which would also support your statement:

edwinG:

Only a fool would think he knew the answer to every question in the bible. I dont pretend to understand all of the bible.

and by mentioning worship, it clearly shows your missunderstanding of the greatest worship the Lord our God gave us, The Catholic Church, in the Eucharist, the re-presentation of the Great Sacrafice on Calvary… worship is not always about the feelings of the Spirit moving! and the comment from the Catholic saying Mother Theresa must have been mistaken saying she was “dry”, is not completely wrong. She did not feel the presence of God, or the Spirit through her entire religious life, that does not mean God, and the Spirit (seperate, or as one), were not with her. the Spirit does not always make us “feel” things. And i am proud to say, as a brother Catholic to Mother Theresa, that She had a faith that would put most sola fide christians to shame!

God Bless You and Grant You Understanding of HIS Truth

 

[vern_humphrey]

edwinG:

Hi vern humphrey,
If you are sincere then you should realise that no one knows all of the bible. As Paul says , we know in part, the part being that which pertains to our work for Him. Only a fool would think he knew the answer to every question in the bible. I dont pretend to understand all of the bible.
walk in love
edwinG

I didn’t ask you to tell us EVERYTHING about the Bible – all I asked was a simple question.

Take this single verse, (John 19,25):

25 Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.

Tell us how many women were standing by the cross, and justify your answer. That should be easy. Why not take a stab at it?

 

[edwinG]

Darrel:

Protestants are so stuck in scripture that they almost assume that Jesus is not around now. If God reveals some truth to the Catholic Church they say… “oh how can you support that in scripture?”. I would ask them what has God revealed to the protestant Church over the years?

-D

Hi Darrel,
May I suggest to you that you experiment a little. Try not to think of two camps, the Roman Catholic camp and the protestant camp. Now God does not reveal anything to the Church. Christ is the Church, and He already knows most things. Christ is our teacher and through the Holy Spirit He teaches individuals. Christ has a tailor made yoke just for you if you will accept it. And He is lowly and humble and wont cause you to suffer as He did. Please accept Him into your life.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[vern_humphrey]

edwinG:

Hi Darrel,
May I suggest to you that you experiment a little. Try not to think of two camps, the Roman Catholic camp and the protestant camp. Now God does not reveal anything to the Church. Christ is the Church, and He already knows most things. Christ is our teacher and through the Holy Spirit He teaches individuals. Christ has a tailor made yoke just for you if you will accept it. And He is lowly and humble and wont cause you to suffer as He did. Please accept Him into your life.
walk in love
edwinG

Okay, Edwin, show us how it works.

How many women were standing near the cross, according to John 19,25?

 

[Ignatius]

Hospitaller:

If you’re interested in sharpening your debating skills, then you should check out this site. There’s a bloke there by the name of Doctor Doom who fancies himself a past master at debating Catholics. If you want have a go at debating him though, be warned: He’s a terminal case basically, who’ll attempt to dismiss any point you make out of hand.

Good apologetics workout though.

Don’t cast your perls before the swine.

 

[edwinG]

jax8686:

Edwin, i would like to clarify, for one, that NO Catholics, who calls themselves Catholic “worship” Mary as almost all protestants seem to missunderstand. As Catholics, we try to love, and live like Jesus, and did not Jesus follow the commandment that said “Honor thy father and mother” ? so in HONORING mary, not worshiping her, we are living more like our Savior…

Hi jax8686
I have read here on this very list people praising Mary for her leading, saving and healing them. Can you honestly say you have not read about these gifts from Mary. Christ can not help you if you accept His help and then praise Mary. Surely you can see this.

Christ established a church, which if you follow history, is the Catholic church, to be an earthly representative of Himself. He gave the church the authority to properly interpret scripture with the guidance of the holy spirit. If every man was to be his own theologean, as the protestant Sola Scriptura depicts, then EVERY man, woman and child would need to 1 be able to read, 2 have access to their own personal copy of the bible(which contrary to *Sola Scripturas *rule that nothign can be added or taken out, was changed by the very inventor of Sola Scriptura), 3 have access to reference materials and commentaries, 4 have adequate leisure time to study, 5 have sufficient critical thinking(barely found in average college students), and that does not account for the lack of printing press, or cash based economy, or ability to travel over long distances easily in the earlier centuries after Christs death. thus, the people of the world NEED an authority to guide and teach them the true meanings of the bible, history, and tradition, which would also support your statement:

Your thoughts are tied to earth. All of those problems that confront you are part of the continuous work of the Holy Spirit. Do you think that the Holy Spirit can only lead Christians. Was the donkey that spoke a Christian. I can testify that God loves heathens as I live in Thailand and the Holy Spirit leads people to me. All that you say indicates your lack of experience. This is not a put down as the same could be said of me 6 years ago and at that age I was 52, so I am a very late blossom. I wont be throwing any stones.
Do you really think the Roman Catholic church is a better teacher than Christ and the Holy Spirit? Let go of earthly thinking and think about the Spirit and how He moves and how He can reach everyone. Our work is to go and preach so people will believe. He will teach us individually as we ask.
How I wish you could understand.
walk in love
edwinG

and by mentioning worship, it clearly shows your missunderstanding of the greatest worship the Lord our God gave us, The Catholic Church, in the Eucharist, the re-presentation of the Great Sacrafice on Calvary… worship is not always about the feelings of the Spirit moving! and the comment from the Catholic saying Mother Theresa must have been mistaken saying she was “dry”, is not completely wrong. She did not feel the presence of God, or the Spirit through her entire religious life, that does not mean God, and the Spirit (seperate, or as one), were not with her. the Spirit does not always make us “feel” things. And i am proud to say, as a brother Catholic to Mother Theresa, that She had a faith that would put most sola fide christians to shame!

God Bless You and Grant You Understanding of HIS Truth

I am pleased that you worship Him in your Eucharist. I also do that in a regulation fashion. I know you judge and in doing so favour the catholic Eucharist as being better, but does the Holy Spirit cause you to worship spontaneously at any time of the day or night. When this happens it is so joyful.
Now Mother Theresa says, and I am using your words, she did not feel the presence of God or the Spirit through her entire religious life. Why should you disagree with her?
If I were to write a book, it would be full of praise for the work of the Holy Spirit. Without Him, I am nothing. Looking back on my life before I was called, I now see many many instances where He has lifted me up and many occasions where He has protected me from myself. But you choose not to believe me. Try this
Job 7:17 What is man, that You should exalt him, That You should set Your heart on him,
7:18 That You should visit him every morning, and test him every moment?
You should be asking yourself why Mother Theresa never experienced the presence of God or the Holy Spirit. David always spoke of His presence. Paul obviously did. Do you have a list of saints who never experienced the presence of God or the Holy Spirit. Maybe such a list could help p(name removed by moderator)oint common ground.
walk in love,
edwinG

 

[vern_humphrey]

edwinG:

Do you really think the Roman Catholic church is a better teacher than Christ and the Holy Spirit? Let go of earthly thinking and think about the Spirit and how He moves and how He can reach everyone. Our work is to go and preach so people will believe. He will teach us individually as we ask.
How I wish you could understand.
walk in love

If the Holy Spirit is in you, you should at least be able to answer my simple question.

How many women were standing near the cross, according to John 19,25?

If you can’t answer this question – in fact, if you’re afraid to even try, then how can you expect us to have any respect for your interptetation of what Christianity really is?

 

[edwinG]

vern humphrey:

Okay, Edwin, show us how it works.

How many women were standing near the cross, according to John 19,25?

Hi vern humphrey,
vern it is a process and you will be tested and attacked. I will give you my email address if you ask for it so you can talk to me in private if you have the need for it.
1st Ask for forgiveness and ask God to help you to forgive others. ( By forgiving others you are helping to heal them, as Christ lives in you and He said your sins are forgiven equates to healing)
2nd Pray only to God, in Christ’s Holy name and honor the beautiful Holy Spirit.
3 rd Submit yourself by telling God, I submit to your will, which has wisdom. Please take mine from me as it is foolish. ( Please there is no need to verbatim but whatever your heart leads you to say. Just start speaking and it will come out)
4th Ask for guidance by the Holy Spirit in Jesus’s Holy name.
persevere with patience. He will come to you and teach you how to listen to Him. Just relax in Him. Christ Himself will come and teach you and as you progress you will find yourself on a great and exciting voyage. IT is not for the timid, but He will always protect you.
Re The number of women standing at the cross. I do not know but I suppose if I wanted to know the answer, I could look it up in your bible with notes which is on the web.
Surely my knowledge of some scripture passage is not the fulcrum of belief. And what if I asked Christ and He told me and then I told you and your answer is wrong.You would not believe. Your belief is centered on your being right. I see no wisdom in this approach.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[wcknight]

edwinG:

Hi jax8686
I have read here on this very list people praising Mary for her leading, saving and healing them. Can you honestly say you have not read about these gifts from Mary. Christ can not help you if you accept His help and then praise Mary. Surely you can see this.

Yes, Mary has helped many folks, so what what are you trying to say here ???

Your thoughts are tied to earth. All of those problems that confront you are part of the continuous work of the Holy Spirit. Do you think that the Holy Spirit can only lead Christians. Was the donkey that spoke a Christian. I can testify that God loves heathens as I live in Thailand and the Holy Spirit leads people to me. All that you say indicates your lack of experience. This is not a put down as the same could be said of me 6 years ago and at that age I was 52, so I am a very late blossom. I wont be throwing any stones.
Do you really think the Roman Catholic church is a better teacher than Christ and the Holy Spirit?

The Church is led by the Holy Spirit and it is the visible presence of Jesus in the world today. He left His Church in charge to interpret and teach in His place.

DO you really think you alone or your minister alone can correctly interpret scriptures on your own ??? Do YOU or your miniister have the historical and training in theology to compete with the Church’s army of theologians and historians ???

It is really foolhardy to think and anyone else can just sit down with their handy dandy KJV Bible and get the proper interpretation of ALL scriptures each and every time. (AND Yes, we know all about your claim that the Holy Spirit correctly guides everyone to interpret scriptures properly… IF this were true, each and every interpretation of scriptures would be identical… they are not !!!) This is why there are so many Protestant denominations. They all disagree with one point or another.

You know the truth, how many times has one minister or another disagreed and walked down the street to start his own church. It happens everyday. You have so many denominations, no one even has an accurate count of them. That’s pretty sad !!!

Let go of earthly thinking and think about the Spirit and how He moves and how He can reach everyone. Our work is to go and preach so people will believe. He will teach us individually as we ask.
How I wish you could understand.
walk in love
edwinG

How we wish YOU could understand. The Catholic Church is the one and only Church as established by Jesus Christ.

I am pleased that you worship Him in your Eucharist. I also do that in a regulation fashion. I know you judge and in doing so favour the catholic Eucharist as being better, but does the Holy Spirit cause you to worship spontaneously at any time of the day or night. When this happens it is so joyful.
Now Mother Theresa says, and I am using your words, she did not feel the presence of God or the Spirit through her entire religious life. Why should you disagree with her?
If I were to write a book, it would be full of praise for the work of the Holy Spirit. Without Him, I am nothing. Looking back on my life before I was called, I now see many many instances where He has lifted me up and many occasions where He has protected me from myself. But you choose not to believe me. Try this
Job 7:17 What is man, that You should exalt him, That You should set Your heart on him,
7:18 That You should visit him every morning, and test him every moment?
You should be asking yourself why Mother Theresa never experienced the presence of God or the Holy Spirit. David always spoke of His presence. Paul obviously did. Do you have a list of saints who never experienced the presence of God or the Holy Spirit. Maybe such a list could help p(name removed by moderator)oint common ground.
walk in love,
edwinG

IS that correct ??? Mother Theresa NEVER experienced the presence of God ??? How do you know this, did she write that, can you read her mind ? or are you just making a supposition ?

Let me state categorically that EVERY Saint of the Catholic Church HAS indeed experienced the presence of God. OTHERWISE THEY WOULD NOT BE SAINTS… where do you get this rubbish ???

wc

 

[wcknight]

edwinG:

Hi vern humphrey,
vern it is a process and you will be tested and attacked. I will give you my email address if you ask for it so you can talk to me in private if you have the need for it.
1st Ask for forgiveness and ask God to help you to forgive others. ( By forgiving others you are helping to heal them, as Christ lives in you and He said your sins are forgiven equates to healing)
2nd Pray only to God, in Christ’s Holy name and honor the beautiful Holy Spirit.
3 rd Submit yourself by telling God, I submit to your will, which has wisdom. Please take mine from me as it is foolish. ( Please there is no need to verbatim but whatever your heart leads you to say. Just start speaking and it will come out)
4th Ask for guidance by the Holy Spirit in Jesus’s Holy name.
persevere with patience. He will come to you and teach you how to listen to Him. Just relax in Him. Christ Himself will come and teach you and as you progress you will find yourself on a great and exciting voyage. IT is not for the timid, but He will always protect you.
Re The number of women standing at the cross. I do not know but I suppose if I wanted to know the answer, I could look it up in your bible with notes which is on the web.
Surely my knowledge of some scripture passage is not the fulcrum of belief. And what if I asked Christ and He told me and then I told you and your answer is wrong.You would not believe. Your belief is centered on your being right. I see no wisdom in this approach.
walk in love
edwinG

You didn’t answer the question Edwin. In your reading it, the Holy Spirit should have immediately enlightened you to correctly interpret scriptures… Isn’t that how it is supposed to work ???

wc