If you're looking for a debate

[edwinG]

wcknight:

Yes, Mary has helped many folks, so what what are you trying to say here ???

The Church is led by the Holy Spirit and it is the visible presence of Jesus in the world today. He left His Church in charge to interpret and teach in His place.

DO you really think you alone or your minister alone can correctly interpret scriptures on your own ??? Do YOU or your miniister have the historical and training in theology to compete with the Church’s army of theologians and historians ???

It is really foolhardy to think and anyone else can just sit down with their handy dandy KJV Bible and get the proper interpretation of ALL scriptures each and every time. (AND Yes, we know all about your claim that the Holy Spirit correctly guides everyone to interpret scriptures properly… IF this were true, each and every interpretation of scriptures would be identical… they are not !!!) This is why there are so many Protestant denominations. They all disagree with one point or another.

You know the truth, how many times has one minister or another disagreed and walked down the street to start his own church. It happens everyday. You have so many denominations, no one even has an accurate count of them. That’s pretty sad !!!

How we wish YOU could understand. The Catholic Church is the one and only Church as established by Jesus Christ.

IS that correct ??? Mother Theresa NEVER experienced the presence of God ??? How do you know this, did she write that, can you read her mind ? or are you just making a supposition ?

Let me state categorically that EVERY Saint of the Catholic Church HAS indeed experienced the presence of God. OTHERWISE THEY WOULD NOT BE SAINTS… where do you get this rubbish ???

wc

Hi wcknight,
Obviously you have not been reading the thread. I get this rubbish from catholic members on this list. I was just quoting from them.

Walk in love
edwinG

 

[vern_humphrey]

edwinG:

Hi vern humphrey,
vern it is a process and you will be tested and attacked.

Standing by the cross was a** process**?

edwinG:

I will give you my email address if you ask for it so you can talk to me in private if you have the need for it.

Why would I need that? Can’t you answer the question in an open forum?

It’s a simple challenge – according to John 19,25, how many women were standing near the cross?

edwinG:

Re The number of women standing at the cross. I do not know but I suppose if I wanted to know the answer, I could look it up in your bible with notes which is on the web.
Surely my knowledge of some scripture passage is not the fulcrum of belief. And what if I asked Christ and He told me and then I told you and your answer is wrong.You would not believe. Your belief is centered on your being right. I see no wisdom in this approach.
walk in love
edwinG

You’d have to look at notes in a ***Catholic ***bible to get the answer? So you admit the Church IS a correct and valid teacher?

 

[vern_humphrey]

wcknight:

You didn’t answer the question Edwin. In your reading it, the Holy Spirit should have immediately enlightened you to correctly interpret scriptures… Isn’t that how it is supposed to work ???

wc

You’ve hit it, exactly.

Here’s someone who presumes to teach, and exaults himself, denigrates the Church, and can’t rise to such a simple challenge.

Now, I’m sure a few people are wondering what the answer is. So here goes.

People in ancient times wrote in a form called “scripta continuosa” – withnospacesbetweenwordslike this. They also had no punctuation marks, and often did not use simple devivces like articles and so on.

The ancient manuscripts therefore read something like this:

StandingbycrossofJesuswerehismotherandhismother’ssisterMary ofClopasMaryofMagdala

Now, we could parse and punctuate it like this:

Standing by cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary of Clopas**,** Mary of Magdala

That’s four women – The Virgin Mary, her sister and two other women named Mary.

Or we could parse it as:

Standing by cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister Mary of Clopas, **Mary **of Magdala

Three women.

Or it could be:

Standing by cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister Mary of Clopas (Maryof Magdala)

Two women.

Is this adequate to show that the Holy Spirit AND a lot of study is necessary to interpret the Bible? The idea that Joe the Plumber and Sam the Butcher can do it for themselves as well as the Church is simply nonsense.

And his unwillingness to take the challenge proves that.

 

[RattleSnake]

To EDWIN,

How do you make yourself capable of judging me?
How do you make yourself capable of stating I do NOT have the Holy Spirit in me?

Be careful Edwin. You are not God.

I have a wonderful relationship with God: The Father, Son, and HOLY SPIRIT.

Why are you bringing Mary into this? When have I brought up Mary? Why do you think I worship Mary?

My question to you was simple. IF you state you are led by the Holy Spirit… but, someone who interprets something DIFFERENT than you claims THEY are led by the Spirit? Who is right? HOW do we determine this?

Very simple, Edwin. Can you answer these without telling me I have NO spirit in me?

 

[wcknight]

edwinG:

Hi wcknight,
Obviously you have not been reading the thread. I get this rubbish from catholic members on this list. I was just quoting from them.

Walk in love
edwinG

Well, I just did read all the posts and YOU misquoted the Catholic who posted. He said Mother Theresa may not have ALWAYS felt the spirit of God. Very few pew people ALWAYS feel the spirit of God (unless you now want to make that claim for yourself or someone you know)

AND anyone who claims Mother Theresa never felt the Spirit of God would be outright lying because no one other than Mother Theresa herself and God Himself, could ever make that claim.

Besides, why would Christ not help someone who praises His mother ? DId Jesus not perform the first miracle for His mother, “before His time” ? Do you think Jesus has no respect for His mother’s wishes ? What kind of ingrate do you take Him to be ???

IF we who are sinful would do anything for our own mothers would not Jesus who is all Good not do likewise for His mother. SO, Jesus decided to make Mary Queen of the Universe, so what ? do you begrudge Him the right to do such a thing ? SO God made her the spouse of the Holy Spirit, the dispenser of all graces, born without original sin, He made her to be the most perfect woman of all creation, made her Queen of the Angels, gave her the power to crush the head of the serpent.

Is not the mother who bore the eternal Word into the world not worthy of such honor and praise ???

Before the world was made God decided that the most perfect woman in creation would have the honor to bear His Son into the world. Is it not fittiing that God should bestow special graces and gifts on His future mother ???

Why in all creation would God punish anyone for honoring the mother who He Himself created to carry Him into the world. Such contempt for the most Holy Mother of God is unfanthomable !!!

You know, IF I were King of the Universe and someone, anyone, least of all one of my subjects dared to denigrate my Mother to the world, their punishment would be the most terrible thing that I could think of.

Who are we to dictate to God Almighty what honors or graces God can or can not give to Mary ???

But go right ahead, blast Mary all you want, I pray God has pity on your soul. I pray for your conversion and soon. Christ’s Peace.

 

[adstrinity]

So, I’m on that site now & have engaged in that thread; the anti-Catholics are former Catholics.

 

[Tabitha773]

edwinG:

Unfortunately, and I am not sure, but if you have Mary mixed up with your worship then God cant use you because you will give the glory to her and not to Him. He doesnt want you to lead people away from Him but to Him directly.
… leave Mary out of the equation.

Thanks be to God for all He has blessed and graced His people, the sheep of His flock with. Thanks be to God for the gift His family is and who do not need to despise either Mary. Hear the words written of King David, who was held in honor by God and man:
2 Samuel 22: 24: I was blameless before him, and I kept myself from guilt.
25: Therefore the LORD has recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to my cleanness in his sight.

If King David, inspired also by God, by the Holy Spirit, is held in such esteem by God and man, how much more so shall the woman who was not only overshadowed by the Holy Spirit be praised. Moving right along in the same book and chapter:
30: Yea, by thee I can crush a troop, and by my God I can leap over a wall.
34: He made my feet like hinds’ feet, and set me secure on the heights.
35: He trains my hands for war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze.
36: Thou hast given me the shield of thy salvation, and thy help made me great.

I place the above in this post because the weapons of Mary’s warfare are not carnal in the least. She is one chosen by God (the Trinity, as far as I can see). If you have removed Mary from the equation, in all sincerity, I pity you. You aren’t the first to be in this predicament, and I know you won’t be the last. However, glory be to God, you will change your mind just as many others. I’ve seen that happen many a time already.

Of course, once that happens one does end up declaring for Catholicism. Come. You will get yet “another” new song. There are many witnesses to the truth of that.

 

[edwinG]

wcknight:

You didn’t answer the question Edwin. In your reading it, the Holy Spirit should have immediately enlightened you to correctly interpret scriptures… Isn’t that how it is supposed to work ???

wc

Hi wcknight,
No the Holy Spirit does not work like that. If you would allow Him into your life instead of locking Him out you would know and not have to ask questions like that. Do you really think you can bully God into playing your immature game “of can you do this or that and if you can’t we wont believe you”. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Please seek Him with an earnest heart.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

vern humphrey:

Standing by the cross was a** process**?

Why would I need that? Can’t you answer the question in an open forum?

It’s a simple challenge – according to John 19,25, how many women were standing near the cross?

You’d have to look at notes in a ***Catholic ***bible to get the answer? So you admit the Church IS a correct and valid teacher?

Hi vern humphrey,
Standing by the cross is not a process. Learning to follow His leading is.
To answer your question. As I have stated, I do not know. You have repeatedly asked this same question. As I stated, I could easily go to the catholic bible and obtain the answer which would satisfy you. I do not know if that answer is correct, but it is the only answer you would accept as correct.
Yes the church is Christ and He alone is our teacher, not some man made church be it catholic or otherwise. Your lack of desire to understand is disheartening.
You also show a complete lack of Him. Your very words portray your unfamiliarity. Hopefully you will be blessed because of your ignorance and not guilty of speaking against Him.
Please seek Him, the Holy Spirit so Jesus can teach you. It is in scripture. Surely you believe Christ is your teacher and that the Holy Spirit is available to you. Why do you insist on locking Him out. Your words are very plain and demonstrate you do not live by His leading. Please try.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[jeffreedy789]

Similarly, if Protestants accepted the Magisterium, they’d ahve no show – they’d have to become Catholics.

good metaphor, vern. i’ll have to remember that one.

 

[edwinG]

You’ve hit it, exactly.

Here’s someone who presumes to teach, and exaults himself, denigrates the Church, and can’t rise to such a simple challenge.

Now, I’m sure a few people are wondering what the answer is. So here goes.

"People in ancient times wrote in a form called "scripta continuosa – withnospacesbetweenwordslike this. They also had no punctuation marks, and often did not use simple devivces like articles and so on.

The ancient manuscripts therefore read something like this:

StandingbycrossofJesuswerehismotherandhismother’ssisterMary ofClopasMaryofMagdala

Now, we could parse and punctuate it like this:

Standing by cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary of Clopas**,** Mary of Magdala

That’s four women – The Virgin Mary, her sister and two other women named Mary.

Or we could parse it as:

Standing by cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister Mary of Clopas, **Mary **of Magdala

Three women.

Or it could be:

Standing by cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother’s sister Mary of Clopas (Maryof Magdala)

Two women.

Is this adequate to show that the Holy Spirit AND a lot of study is necessary to interpret the Bible? The idea that Joe the Plumber and Sam the Butcher can do it for themselves as well as the Church is simply nonsense.

And his unwillingness to take the challenge proves that.

Hi vern humprey,
To answer " You’ve hit it exactly" shows your complete lack of understanding of Him. Obviously you are keeping Him locked out of your life. What I can’t understand is why you are keeping Him (God) locked out of your heart.
To answer your “people in ancient times” Here is some information for you. People today do this as well. An example is in Thailand where I am living at the moment.
Your “in ancient times” is misleading as well.
Here is my favourite punctuation lesson from primary school, some 46 or more years ago.
The spaces between fish and and and and and chips are too wide.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

RattleSnake:

To EDWIN,

How do you make yourself capable of judging me?
How do you make yourself capable of stating I do NOT have the Holy Spirit in me?

Be careful Edwin. You are not God.

I have a wonderful relationship with God: The Father, Son, and HOLY SPIRIT.

Why are you bringing Mary into this? When have I brought up Mary? Why do you think I worship Mary?

My question to you was simple. IF you state you are led by the Holy Spirit… but, someone who interprets something DIFFERENT than you claims THEY are led by the Spirit? Who is right? HOW do we determine this?

Very simple, Edwin. Can you answer these without telling me I have NO spirit in me?

Hi RattleSnake,
I went back over all of the posts and I could not find your post where I judged you or stated you do not have the Holy Spirit.
Please direct me to the number of the post so I can reply.
Why am I bringing Mary into this. Simple. If Christ works through you using the Holy Spirit and then you claim it was Mary who did this then His work has been in vain. So Mary is a stumbling stone to His using you. John 9:24 So they again called the man who was blind, and said to him, " Give God the glory! We know that this Man is a sinner." Here the Pharisees want to take the glory from Christ. Do you really think God wants Mary to have the glory instead of Christ? Yet on this very list and even on this thread you will find Roman Catholics who credit Mary with works. This should go to Christ , not Mary or some “dead” saint. This may be why the Holy Spirit isn’t using you for greater works.
As I could not find your previous thread I am at a loss to know its outcome. Please direct me to it.
To answer how do you determine who is right. Christ has given each one of us work to do for Him so as Paul says we only know in part. If we go away from that which is directly related to us we can easily be in error. We dont sit down and ask the Holy Spirit a bunch of questions and receive answers. Many answers come in practical lessons, some as tribulations for deeper understanding, but where we disagree, and we do, it is still a teaching. If our pride is strong we cling to our own answer, but we are convicted and know it. So sometimes we are tested to see if we will submit and humbly accept correction. This is good for us. Your earnest heart is a good guide. The Holy Spirit can and does intercede for us as well. Yes people have fallen, just look at the jews who went from blessing to estrangement to blessing to estrangement. This can happen to use also if we become prideful. Always look to the fruit for by their fruit you will know them. This is a good test to find out if people have left His path, seduced by the abundance He brings into our lives as we obey.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[jax8686]

edwinG:

Hi RattleSnake,
If our pride is strong we cling to our own answer, but we are convicted and know it.

hmm… pride being strong… sounds familiar… Edwin, do you possibly have Anticatbot on your computer? i see all of the typical symptoms… including the same reply over and over with slightly different wording… please do not think you can judge the presence of the spirit within other people… and in Mother Theresas autobiography, she did say, herself, that she has not felt the presence of the Spirit since she began her religious life… i feel that her devotion without proof is a GREAT example for our faith lives…

DOWNLOAD ANTICATBOT TODAY!!! forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=44042&highlight=anticatbot

 

[edwinG]

wcknight:

Well, I just did read all the posts and YOU misquoted the Catholic who posted. He said Mother Theresa may not have ALWAYS felt the spirit of God. Very few pew people ALWAYS feel the spirit of God (unless you now want to make that claim for yourself or someone you know)

Hi wcknight,
Verbatim, from post 31 the post I was responding to. " She did not feel the presence of God or the Spirit through her entire religious life"
Now there is no “always” in this.
Could you please direct me to the place you found “always”.
So, I have not misquoted and I hope you are not being careless with the truth.
As for me, sometimes I feel His presence many times in a day and sometimes I may not feel Him working in my life for 3 or 4 days. But if I were to write a book it would be " and the Holy Spirit did this and Jesus taught me this and I was led there and Jesus fixed this and organised this. My life would only be praise to Him.

But go right ahead, blast Mary all you want, I pray God has pity on your soul. I pray for your conversion and soon. Christ’s Peace.

Mary the mother of Jesus was a very beautiful women blessed and always blessed. Christ has given me faith enough to know that Mary is safe in Him. I also know that the beautiful humble Mary would not interfere in His work or promote her name.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

jax8686:

hmm… pride being strong… sounds familiar… Edwin, do you possibly have Anticatbot on your computer? i see all of the typical symptoms… including the same reply over and over with slightly different wording… please do not think you can judge the presence of the spirit within other people… and in Mother Theresas autobiography, she did say, herself, that she has not felt the presence of the Spirit since she began her religious life… i feel that her devotion without proof is a GREAT example for our faith lives…

DOWNLOAD ANTICATBOT TODAY!!! forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=44042&highlight=anticatbot

Hi jax8686,
I am not familar with the word ‘anticatbot’ and thus do not feel inclined to download. I am very careful about wandering around the internet. Maybe you could explain to me why the members here keep repeating the same question even though it has been answered in full. Ie please answer this question. after I did. Can you tell me how many times this question was asked? And now you wonder why my answers are similar. To me it seems simple. Are you diverting the subject?
walk in love
edwinG

 

[Vinko]

Hey Edwin,

(sorry this is confusing… I am also RattleSnake)

You are totally offensive with your claims that we here on this site do NOT have the Holy Spirit. We DO ask the Lord into our hearts.

Everything you keep bellowing… we do.

The only thing different… .we do not go by sola scriptura. We believe the Catholic Church is to be the one Christ started. If we believe that… we are following Chirst to the fullest by remaining in His Church.

You assume and judge too much. Edwin? How do you know I do not accept the Lord into my heart? How do you know that I do not have the spirit?

Can you discern this? What makes you capable? That is my question.

 

[edwinG]

Vinko:

Hey Edwin,

(sorry this is confusing… I am also RattleSnake)

You are totally offensive with your claims that we here on this site do NOT have the Holy Spirit. We DO ask the Lord into our hearts.

Everything you keep bellowing… we do.

The only thing different… .we do not go by sola scriptura. We believe the Catholic Church is to be the one Christ started. If we believe that… we are following Chirst to the fullest by remaining in His Church.

You assume and judge too much. Edwin? How do you know I do not accept the Lord into my heart? How do you know that I do not have the spirit?

Can you discern this? What makes you capable? That is my question.

Hi Vinko/ RattleSnake,
LOL this makes it so much easier.
I discern this by your words. Your words do not reflect your being led by the Holy Spirit. If you would speak the words which showed that you were led by the Holy Spirit my heart would sing with joy. I am sad that you do not have Him because in Him life becomes meaningful and abundant. This list would be full of witnessing if members were being led. Every day people would be telling amazing stories, so full of joy they could not keep it to themselves, sharing it and making all others want Him in their life as well. This list would swell with joy. Here is an example. Christ told me to stop smoking and when He did, I gave my weight to Him, knowing I would have a battle with my weight. Since that day I have never looked at a set of scales. Now it is very common to eat out here in Thailand as it is often cheaper to eat at a road side food stall then it is to eat at home. I try always to say grace. Lately when I have eaten out, I come home and forget to say grace before I eat at home. This is against my normal practice. I can have food on a plate and say to myself, now dont forget to say grace when you sit down and 3 seconds later something happens and later on I realise that in my distraction, I forget to say grace. I know He is working in my life. Now in answer to His prompting, when I eat out, I dont eat or even drink black tea without sugar at home, just plain water. I catch the bus He wants me to catch when He wants me to catch it because sometimes He has work for me to do before I move on. My whole day is geared around His wants, and He is truly beautiful to me. I only wish you would choose to be the same.
Now, if you have been baptised and believe in Christ, I am sure you have the Holy Spirit in you, but from your words, you and members on this list are not listening to Him. He wont ever leave you and His love is always poured out on you but you have to accept it and pick it up.
Tell me Vinko, which site now, today, has witnessing to His leading. Can you give me the heading and the post number so I can go there and read of Him in your life.
Do this and give joy to me.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[jimmy]

edwinG:

Hi Vinko/ RattleSnake,
LOL this makes it so much easier.
I discern this by your words. Your words do not reflect your being led by the Holy Spirit. If you would speak the words which showed that you were led by the Holy Spirit my heart would sing with joy. I am sad that you do not have Him because in Him life becomes meaningful and abundant. This list would be full of witnessing if members were being led. Every day people would be telling amazing stories, so full of joy they could not keep it to themselves, sharing it and making all others want Him in their life as well. This list would swell with joy. Here is an example. Christ told me to stop smoking and when He did, I gave my weight to Him, knowing I would have a battle with my weight. Since that day I have never looked at a set of scales. Now it is very common to eat out here in Thailand as it is often cheaper to eat at a road side food stall then it is to eat at home. I try always to say grace. Lately when I have eaten out, I come home and forget to say grace before I eat at home. This is against my normal practice. I can have food on a plate and say to myself, now dont forget to say grace when you sit down and 3 seconds later something happens and later on I realise that in my distraction, I forget to say grace. I know He is working in my life. Now in answer to His prompting, when I eat out, I dont eat or even drink black tea without sugar at home, just plain water. I catch the bus He wants me to catch when He wants me to catch it because sometimes He has work for me to do before I move on. My whole day is geared around His wants, and He is truly beautiful to me. I only wish you would choose to be the same.
Now, if you have been baptised and believe in Christ, I am sure you have the Holy Spirit in you, but from your words, you and members on this list are not listening to Him. He wont ever leave you and His love is always poured out on you but you have to accept it and pick it up.
Tell me Vinko, which site now, today, has witnessing to His leading. Can you give me the heading and the post number so I can go there and read of Him in your life.
Do this and give joy to me.
walk in love
edwinG

You sound pretty arrogant Edwin. It is not for you to decide who has the Spirit and who does not.

 

[Darrel]

edwinG:

Hi Darrel,
May I suggest to you that you experiment a little. Try not to think of two camps, the Roman Catholic camp and the protestant camp. Now God does not reveal anything to the Church. Christ is the Church, and He already knows most things. Christ is our teacher and through the Holy Spirit He teaches individuals. Christ has a tailor made yoke just for you if you will accept it. And He is lowly and humble and wont cause you to suffer as He did. Please accept Him into your life.
walk in love
edwinG

Hi Edwin,

Thank you for the kind and caring words. I actualy accepted Christ into my heart well over 20 years ago as a protestant. I recently began my conversion into the Catholic Church. This took place after our Lord and savior Jesus Christ who I already knew revealed himself to me in the Eucharist at an Adoration Chapel.

-D

 

[wcknight]

edwinG:

Hi wcknight,
Verbatim, from post 31 the post I was responding to. " She did not feel the presence of God or the Spirit through her entire religious life"
Now there is no “always” in this.
Could you please direct me to the place you found “always”.
So, I have not misquoted and I hope you are not being careless with the truth.
As for me, sometimes I feel His presence many times in a day and sometimes I may not feel Him working in my life for 3 or 4 days. But if I were to write a book it would be " and the Holy Spirit did this and Jesus taught me this and I was led there and Jesus fixed this and organised this. My life would only be praise to Him.

Mary the mother of Jesus was a very beautiful women blessed and always blessed. Christ has given me faith enough to know that Mary is safe in Him. I also know that the beautiful humble Mary would not interfere in His work or promote her name.
walk in love
edwinG

This is where I felt you were misquoting:

BTW, I don’t really care what some un-named Catholic friend of yours is supposed to have said about Mother Theresa.

IF as you claim she wrote that in her book, then just maybe you are a far better saint than she is. I seriously doubt it but hey I don’t really know you. Good for you, St, EdwinG !

From JAxx866 posted yesterday at 11:40

and by mentioning worship, it clearly shows your missunderstanding of the greatest worship the Lord our God gave us, The Catholic Church, in the Eucharist, the re-presentation of the Great Sacrafice on Calvary… worship is not always about the feelings of the Spirit moving! and the comment from the Catholic saying Mother Theresa must have been mistaken saying she was “dry”, is not completely wrong. She did not feel the presence of God, or the Spirit through her entire religious life, that does not mean God, and the Spirit (seperate, or as one), were not with her. the Spirit does not always make us “feel” things. And i am proud to say, as a brother Catholic to Mother Theresa, that She had a faith that would put most sola fide christians to shame!

IF as you say you often feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, why don’t you answer some of the questions posed to you ?

For one filled the Holy Spirit as you claim, I find your posts somewhat arrogant and deceptive. You come here trying to lure Catholics from what you perceive to be a false faith, yet you can not even prove that what you have is any closer to the Truth.

For example, why is it that IF your KJV Bible is God’s unalterable Truth, how Protestants can remove several books from it and still claim it is unimpeachable.

And IF the Holy Spirit automatically guides everyone who reads the Bible to make the correct interpretation of scriptures each and every time, how can 10,000 ministers come up with 10,000 different interpretations for their congregations ? Should they not agree with each and every interpretation for each and every passage ?

We have one interpretation, the Churches, as truly guided by the Holy Spirit, not 10,000 or more. We are guided by the successor to St. Peter as directed and authorized by Jesus Himself, as written in scriptures. We don’t run off and go create our own church each time we disagree with a ministers view about one passage or another.

Please tell us again, what is it, that is so attractive about your faith ???

wc