Ignorance?

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kamz:
We must reach out but if you reach out .
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**That is what the Priest should be doing at every Mass…unfortunatly a majority of them do not!
**
 
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Karin:
Sarcasm yes, anger nope.

I am not condemning them I am trying to understand why repeatdly doing something that people know is against church teaching is ok.
An example a family that gives money to the church and their time goes back 4 times for IVF treatments that produce 4 children…totally against church teaching but everyone says it is ok…WHY???
In this day and age people now that IVF is not allowed!

I’m not condemning anyone either but…

My problem is when a Catholic allows their sin to lead others astray. Take for instance a teacher of RCIA that doesn’t clearly and unequivocally present the Church’s teachings on artificial birth control or IVF because they participate or have participated in the sin (come to think of it, this encompasses most priests I know - not the participation part; the weak to nonexistant teaching part). I’ve seen it on this forum many times where a catechumen(?) complains that the RCIA teacher says the church teaches against ABC BUT (here comes the other shoe) it really is a matter of ones personal conscience. This is clearly wrong and is of great concern to me especially as my children enter our local Catholic school.

In the example of the couple that used IVF four times (and apparently is very public about it), I would be very leary about them teaching my children or RCIA classes. Its not that they have sinned (past tense); it is really do they continue the effects of that sin through false teaching of those in the community - their own children, RCIA, CCD, friends, etc…has there been a true repetance; a true reconciliation with the community.

Please don’t read too many “what-if’s” into this. I communicate rather poorly and hope you can see my point.
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Breton:
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Karin:
Sarcasm yes, anger nope.
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I am not condemning them I am trying to understand why repeatdly doing something that people know is against church teaching is ok.
An example a family that gives money to the church and their time goes back 4 times for IVF treatments that produce 4 children…totally against church teaching but everyone says it is ok…WHY???
In this day and age people now that IVF is not allowed!

I’m not condemning anyone either but…

My problem is when a Catholic allows their sin to lead others astray. Take for instance a teacher of RCIA that doesn’t clearly and unequivocally present the Church’s teachings on artificial birth control or IVF because they participate or have participated in the sin (come to think of it, this encompasses most priests I know - not the participation part; the weak to nonexistant teaching part). I’ve seen it on this forum many times where a catechumen(?) complains that the RCIA teacher says the church teaches against ABC BUT (here comes the other shoe) it really is a matter of ones personal conscience. This is clearly wrong and is of great concern to me especially as my children enter our local Catholic school.

In the example of the couple that used IVF four times (and apparently is very public about it), I would be very leary about them teaching my children or RCIA classes. Its not that they have sinned (past tense); it is really do they continue the effects of that sin through false teaching of those in the community - their own children, RCIA, CCD, friends, etc…has there been a true repetance; a true reconciliation with the community.

Please don’t read too many “what-if’s” into this. I communicate rather poorly and hope you can see my point.
Understand completly!!! And totally agree!
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kamz:
But, are you going to get in a line at church and question each member and tell them, you, obey or get out? Since when did God make you judge? We must reach out but if you reach out with confrontation and bitterness you are not reaching anything, you must speak with truth and compassion and listen and pray, people are more apt to listen when your not freaking out on them, you need to speak with love and kindness and truth.
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I agree with what you are saying. Its not me that’s freaking out. Its the OP.
 
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thistle:
I agree with what you are saying. Its not me that’s freaking out. Its the OP.
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Umm…seeing as I am the OP:) …May I state I am not freaking out…I am bashing my head against the wall:banghead: because it seems there is sooo much contradicition going on in teaching the faith or perhaps in.lack of teaching the faith.
 
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thistle:
Actually that is not correct. It is a mortal sin if someone refuses to accept any truths of the Faith or any teachings of the Church. They cannot pick and choose the ones they like or dislike. ALL must be accepted.
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Sounds nuts to me! :whacky:
 
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FightingFat:
Sounds nuts to me! :whacky:
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What sounds nuts? That you must accept all the teachings of the Church or that its a sin not to, or both?
 
Well, that there is no debate, no discussion, no movement towards better understanding. Simply YOU MUST ACCEPT! I think this contradicts the human model, which is all about learning and growing. Some of us need to be told what to do and some of us thrive by challenging and questioning. That is to be encouraged and expected. My Catholic faith has always been about finding answers to questions that make sense, academically and spiritually. That is why I am proud to be a Catholic. I do not think it is reasonable to expect people to accept this huge chunk of information without question. Better that we grow to accept and better understand the living message of Christ in our lives.
 
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FightingFat:
Well, that there is no debate, no discussion, no movement towards better understanding. Simply YOU MUST ACCEPT! I think this contradicts the human model, which is all about learning and growing. Some of us need to be told what to do and some of us thrive by challenging and questioning. That is to be encouraged and expected. My Catholic faith has always been about finding answers to questions that make sense, academically and spiritually. That is why I am proud to be a Catholic. I do not think it is reasonable to expect people to accept this huge chunk of information without question. Better that we grow to accept and better understand the living message of Christ in our lives.
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Well I’m sorry you feel that way because a Catholic must accept all the Church’s teachings whether you fully understand them or not. Pope Benedict XVI has also made that clear more than once. You cannot pick and choose like in a supermarket.
 
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thistle:
Actually that is not correct. It is a mortal sin if someone refuses to accept any truths of the Faith
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It is grave matter, but grave matter, in itself, does not constitute a mortal sin.
 
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Pug:
It is grave matter, but grave matter, in itself, does not constitute a mortal sin.
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No its a mortal sin. Its stated in a book I have “How To Make A Good Confession” and carries both Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat which means it is free from doctrinal errors.
 
Karin, I have a couple of questions for you.

All quotes by Karin
…what I am tring to do is understand how they can get away with picking and choosing what they want out of the Church Teaching.
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Would you please clarify for me, what you mean by:
“…get away with…”

Do you mean:
-they still call themselves, and think of themselves,
as Catholic?
-they still go forward to receive communion?
I am not condemning them I am trying to understand why repeatdly doing something that people know is against church teaching is ok
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What does “…ok…” mean, in this context?

Thanks,

reen12
 
Additionally:

quote:LSK
Being a Catholic means that one has decided, of their own free will, to accept ALL the teachings of the Catholic Faith
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OK. I accept this definition.

Now, would you please give me your thought on the following:

-An infant is born into a family.
-That infant is baptized, and is accepted into the Church.
-As an adult, he/she is then told:
“You are a Catholic. You must follow all Church teachings.”

Where does the:
quote: LSK
…of their own free will…"
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part, come into play, here?

An infant is not in a postion to exercise free will.

Thanks, :tiphat:

reen12
 
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FightingFat:
Well, that there is no debate, no discussion, no movement towards better understanding. Simply YOU MUST ACCEPT! I think this contradicts the human model, which is all about learning and growing. Some of us need to be told what to do and some of us thrive by challenging and questioning. That is to be encouraged and expected. My Catholic faith has always been about finding answers to questions that make sense, academically and spiritually. That is why I am proud to be a Catholic. I do not think it is reasonable to expect people to accept this huge chunk of information without question. Better that we grow to accept and better understand the living message of Christ in our lives.
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I would certainly encourage anyone to learn all they can about what the Catholic Church teaches; I would maybe even characterized it as “question” your faith.

I would hope that any investigation of the Church would lead one to agreement and humble conformity with its teachings. If it does not, I would suggest the peron keep searching/praying (even debating) until it does.

As Catholics we are to believe the Church holds/protects/interprets/teaches the true “deposit of Faith” through the guidance of the Holy Spirit through many many intelligent and faithful people over the past 2000 years. I think it is reasonable to expect people to accept the teachings of a Church that is “known by its fruits” without testing everything. How many accept the canon of scripture without knowing every possible fact of its formation. On the other hand, how many fight the Church’s teachings on artificial birth control without ever really investigating the Church’s teachings.

When I think I know better than 2000 years of Apostolic Succession, Sacred Tradition, the Church Christ established and protects with His Holy Spirit, first order of business is to make sure my pride is turned off and my heart is open to the Truth.
 
Hi Karin (and all…),

I see Karin saying “Well how do these people who are in sin and opposition to the church ‘get away with’ going to communion?” My answer is that that is not the responsibility of the rest of us and since we are not there to help what good does it do to even bring that up? We, none of us, know what is going on behind the scenes, do we? That being the case, the discussion is sort of moot.

How do we handle the situation with those who have chosen not to follow Catholic teaching, either through ignorance or outright rebellion? My answer: Get you better trained backside into the teaching structure of your parish at whatever level you feel led by the Holy Spirit and get busy fixing the problem. It’s not rocket science brothers and sisters, it’s just simply the right thing to do.

Moreover, it is the command of Christ Himself, (Matthew 28:)
19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Pax tecum,
 
Church Militant:
Hi Karin (and all…),

My answer: Get you better trained backside into the teaching structure of your parish at whatever level you feel led by the Holy Spirit and get busy fixing the problem. It’s not rocket science brothers and sisters, it’s just simply the right thing to do.

Pax tecum,
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AMEN!
 
Church Militant:
Hi Karin (and all…),

I see Karin saying “Well how do these people who are in sin and opposition to the church ‘get away with’ going to communion?” My answer is that that is not the responsibility of the rest of us and since we are not there to help what good does it do to even bring that up? We, none of us, know what is going on behind the scenes, do we? That being the case, the discussion is sort of moot.

How do we handle the situation with those who have chosen not to follow Catholic teaching, either through ignorance or outright rebellion? My answer: Get you better trained backside into the teaching structure of your parish at whatever level you feel led by the Holy Spirit and get busy fixing the problem. It’s not rocket science brothers and sisters, it’s just simply the right thing to do.

Moreover, it is the command of Christ Himself, (Matthew 28:)
19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Pax tecum,
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AWESOME POST :clapping:
 
mlchance said:
1. They are going wrong by placing their own will above the will of God.
  1. Can’t really say. I’d hazard the guess they’re either not honest about not knowing or they don’t care to know. It is almost inconceivable that anyone living within the Information Age doesn’t know the Church’s teaching on IVF and sterilization.
  2. What can the Church do about it? Slap restraining orders on willfully ignorant Catholics considering such sinful procedures? Sure, catechesis could be better in many places, but let’s not fool ourselves. We’re talking about adults who are responsible for seeking out and implementing Church teaching. No one can rightfully sit back and say, “Well, the Church never told me; therefore, I’m off the hook.”
– Mark L. Chance.
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Mark,

I am one of those who underwent IVF, and did not know it was against Church teachings. No one ever told me that it may be wrong. This includes a parish priest, my MIL, mother, and grandmother (all who are well versed in their Catechism). I was a Sunday Catholic who thought I was a good person. I wanted a baby. It seemed okay to use my dh’s sperm and my egg. As stated in another thread, I felt “uncomfortable” with the procedure, but truly didn’t know enough to look into whether it was against Church teachings. Some of you are lucky enough to have been well educated in your faith from the get go. My journey was longer. Once I discovered that dh and I had sinned by undergoing such a procedure, I went to Confession and still to this day feel somewhat guilty. We conceived 2 babies this way—both miscarried. I know that they have souls and are in Heaven waiting for me.
When I asked my mother why she didn’t tell me IVF was wrong–she replied “it wasn’t any of my business”. I make it my business now to tell others who are considering IVF and other reproductive techniques. They may not like to hear it, but I think it is my responsibility to educate—due to my own mistakes.
 
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