Ignorance?

[Karin]

While reading different threads on this forum I come across many Catholics that totally go against Church teaching and still feel that they are not doing anything wrong?

Some things I have come across…

IVF is ok, nothing wrong with it.
Male/Female sterilaztion is ok…nothing wrong with it.

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I mean the Church teaching on all of these things is pretty simple…it is not allowed!

So where are these people going wrong? Do they not know (hard to believe in this day and age) or do they just not care? Why is the Church not doing anything about it?

 

[Catherine_Grant]

As your question deals with a defense of the faith, it was moved to the Apologetics forum. You should get the answers you are looking for here.

 

[Ianjo99]

People tend to think that because a procedure is commonplace in their society, it is licit in the Church. Because they don’t see it as harming another (although IVF does kill human beings (the embryos not used)) they think that it isn’t a sin. Instead of believing in true Catholicism, they revert to a more modernistic approach with a belief that resembles karma. As long as no other person is harmed, they’re fine.

The Church, I believe anyway, needs to tighten up on their teachings as a whole. We need to stop playing around and trying to be PC and tell the world honestly what we believe. If they don’t like it, it would only increase my faith.

 

[FightingFat]

What about conscience?

Some people prefer to use their brains and think about issues themselves rather than just follow a set of rules. You may think this is a bad thing, but it is a truth none the less. If someone is devout in their belief and has truly thought and prayed about an issue, but come to a conclusion in opposition, as I understand it, they are still wrong, but it is not necessarily a sin.

 

[mlchance]

Karin:

So where are these people going wrong? Do they not know (hard to believe in this day and age) or do they just not care? Why is the Church not doing anything about it?

1. They are going wrong by placing their own will above the will of God.
2. Can’t really say. I’d hazard the guess they’re either not honest about not knowing or they don’t care to know. It is almost inconceivable that anyone living within the Information Age doesn’t know the Church’s teaching on IVF and sterilization.
3. What can the Church do about it? Slap restraining orders on willfully ignorant Catholics considering such sinful procedures? Sure, catechesis could be better in many places, but let’s not fool ourselves. We’re talking about adults who are responsible for seeking out and implementing Church teaching. No one can rightfully sit back and say, “Well, the Church never told me; therefore, I’m off the hook.”

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[mlchance]

FightingFat:

What about conscience?

Conscience does not change or override the truth. Failing to properly conform one’s own conscience to the truth is itself sinful. The Church says IVF and sterilization are wrong. If one’s conscience says otherwise, then one’s conscience is also wrong.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[FightingFat]

Absolutely, doesn’t change the fact that people will make up their own minds about issues with guidance from the Church.
To be honest, I think your attitude is a rather one dimensional one.

 

[asquared]

conscience is our guide to right behavior but our conscience must be informed, that means it is our duty to seek out proper teaching on God’s commands about our behavior, and to educate our children properly in the moral life. For a Catholic to fail to learn what the Church teaches about moral issues is a grave offense against the first 3 commandments, and even more so for a parent who fails to see their child is educated in the faith. The most grievous punishment, however, in Christ’s own words is reserved for those in the Church who have been charged with teaching the truth, yet fail in their duty or worse actually teach falsehood.

 

[mlchance]

FightingFat:

Absolutely, doesn’t change the fact that people will make up their own minds about issues with guidance from the Church.

That is exactly how people are to make up their mind about issues. And when the Church has authoritatively spoken time and time again about an issue (such as IVF or sterilization), there is only one correct way to make up one’s mind: in accordance with Church teaching.

Anyone who does otherwise is wrong, regardless of their rationalizations to the contrary.

FightingFat:

To be honest, I think your attitude is a rather one dimensional one.

http://home.houston.rr.com/mchance3/rolleyes.gif

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Karin]

mlchance:

That is exactly how people are to make up their mind about issues. And when the Church has authoritatively spoken time and time again about an issue (such as IVF or sterilization), there is only one correct way to make up one’s mind: in accordance with Church teaching.
– Mark L. Chance.

For the people that keep going against church teaching, when does the church say enough!? When do other Catholics say enough, you are going against the Church?!?! OR is there really nothing that can be done?

Example:On another thread about IVF a poster said that a family had 4 kids via IVF and since they give time and money to the church and they love their kids that it is all ok.

 

[FightingFat]

Karin:

For the people that keep going against church teaching, when does the church say enough!? When do other Catholics say enough, you are going against the Church?!?! OR is there really nothing that can be done?

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Ultimately, isn’t it between them and God??

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Karin:

Example:On another thread about IVF a poster said that a family had 4 kids via IVF and since they give time and money to the church and they love their kids that it is all ok

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Sounds OK to me. Life is complicated.

 

[Karin]

FightingFat:

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Ultimately, isn’t it between them and God??.

Yes, but does the Church not have a job of making sure that people follow her rules?

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FightingFat:

Sounds OK to me. Life is complicated.

Good Lord…does anybody not listen or read…IVF IS NOT OK!!!

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Or is it just that people DO NOT CARE? DO THEY THINK THEY ARE GOD?!?!

 

[FightingFat]

Sorry Karin.

I’m not saying people should disobey Church teaching, just that they do, for lots of different reasons. Some of them are quite intelligent too! I try and keep my own nose clean and I have a fair job doing just that!

Yes, but does the Church not have a job of making sure that people follow her rules?

Do you think the Church should (or even could) police such things?

Why does what other people do worry you so much??

 

[Karin]

FightingFat:

Sorry Karin.

I’m not saying people should disobey Church teaching, just that they do, for lots of different reasons. Some of them are quite intelligent too! I try and keep my own nose clean and I have a fair job doing just that!

I understamd that Catholics try to keep their noses clean (so to speak) but as part of a LARGER family do you and other Catholics not have a responsibilty to others? Meaning teach and show where they have gone wrong etc.?
Or does everyone feel that it is not their problem and let God figure it out?

 

[FightingFat]

I think most people here would say that they do have a responsibility to teach and show where they go wrong. Personally, I think there are lots of other ways I could show my responsibility towards others before I lecture them about how they live their lives. As a Church Catechist, I am engaged in teaching the catechism, but I try and teach the tools people need to engage their own powers of discernment and right judgement in the hope they conclude that the Churches direction is the best way.

Please understand, I have reached a personal conclusion that the Churches rules are best and I try my hardest to walk the path the Church asks me to walk, in a spirit of love and charity. I try to lead by example and always extol the virtues of Catholic life.

I do not feel that I am good enough to tell anyone that they are doing something wrong.

 

[Karin]

FightingFat:

I think most people here would say that they do have a responsibility to teach and show where they go wrong. Personally, I think there are lots of other ways I could show my responsibility towards others before I lecture them about how they live their lives. As a Church Catechist, I am engaged in teaching the catechism, but I try and teach the tools people need to engage their own powers of discernment and right judgement in the hope they conclude that the Churches direction is the best way.

Please understand, I have reached a personal conclusion that the Churches rules are best and I try my hardest to walk the path the Church asks me to walk, in a spirit of love and charity. I try to lead by example and always extol the virtues of Catholic life.

I do not feel that I am good enough to tell anyone that they are doing something wrong.

What a shame.
As a Catholic and one that knows the Church’s teachings etc. you still will not say something?
No wonder there are so many confused Catholics out there!

 

[FightingFat]

Karin:

What a shame.
As a Catholic and one that knows the Church’s teachings etc. you still will not say something?
No wonder there are so many confused Catholics out there!

If someone asked me, I would answer. I don’t go around looking for people to chastise though!

Look, I’m a bad example of most of the people here, I really don’t fit in very well at all, I’m sure that you’ll find lots of people with a nice comfortable right wing enough attitude for you!

God bless!

 

[Karin]

FightingFat:

If someone asked me, I would answer. I don’t go around looking for people to chastise though!!

And based on your earlier post it looks like you would tell them IVF was OK. Which is totally the wrong answer to give people, if they asked IMHO!

FightingFat:

Look, I’m a bad example of most of the people here, I really don’t fit in very well at all, I’m sure that you’ll find lots of people with a nice comfortable right wing enough attitude for you!

God bless!

How bad of an example can you be? You teach the catechism (is that not a good thing?)
What I am trying to figure out is when do other Catholics say enough abuse, enough of indivuals playing God , enough of people making their own rules etc.?
Is their not a higher calling when you become or are a Catholic- a higher calling in regards to the WHOLE CHURCH or is everyone still stuck in their ME MODE? Is not everyone supposed to help their brothers and sisters in their faith to grow in it and PRACTICE it correctly?

 

[FightingFat]

Karin:

And based on your earlier post it looks like you would tell them IVF was OK. Which is totally the wrong answer to give people, if they asked IMHO!

Yes I understand. To be honest that’s not really the idea I was trying to get across. If I were confronted with this situation, I would pass on what I have learned. I would try and do it is an atmosphere of discussion- of learning, and try to demonstrate the reasons why.
People who have been through this sort of nightmare don’t need to be condemned, they need love and support (just my opinion). If I knew that someone was going through this I would not try and foister my opinions on them, but I might well attempt to engage them in discussion and gently introduce the Churches position. Make any sense?

Karin:

How bad of an example can you be? You teach the catechism (is that not a good thing?)

I think it is important to live that example more than profess it. If you are living well and understand life a little, this is (in my experience) obvious to others and they approach you to benefit from your wisdom (which is a form of compliment and carries responsibility on its own)
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Karin:

What I am trying to figure out is when do other Catholics say enough abuse, enough of indivuals playing God , enough of people making their own rules etc.?

For me, when it starts to effect others. If you are part of a Church community then we are all brothers and sisters and this sort of transaction takes place in a very natural way.
I don’t find that people make up their own rules. I find that I often misjudge people based on my own short-sightedness, and that is something I try to avoid.

Karin:

Is their not a higher calling when you become or are a Catholic- a higher calling in regards to the WHOLE CHURCH or is everyone still stuck in their ME MODE? Is not everyone supposed to help their brothers and sisters in their faith to grow in it and PRACTICE it correctly?

Absolutely, but you lead a horse to water- doesn’t necessarily mean it will drink. Tend the garden and allow the holy spirit to work the magic. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

 

[Karin]

FightingFat:

Yes I understand. To be honest that’s not really the idea I was trying to get across. If I were confronted with this situation, I would pass on what I have learned. I would try and do it is an atmosphere of discussion- of learning, and try to demonstrate the reasons why.

**OK that makes sense and I am happy to hear it! **

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FightingFat:

People who have been through this sort of nightmare don’t need to be condemned, they need love and support (just my opinion). If I knew that someone was going through this I would not try and foister my opinions on them, but I might well attempt to engage them in discussion and gently introduce the Churches position. Make any sense?

Makes total sense. Love the sinner hate the sin!

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FightingFat:

I think it is important to live that example more than profess it. If you are living well and understand life a little, this is (in my experience) obvious to others and they approach you to benefit from your wisdom (which is a form of compliment and carries responsibility on its own)

.
OK. But l do not agree that lead by example rather than profess it is always a good thing. IF it was the solution than you would not have all these Catholics doing IVF and ABC and other things!
There are times you need to PROFESS! Words at time speak louder than actions!

FightingFat:

For me, when it starts to effect others. If you are part of a Church community then we are all brothers and sisters and this sort of transaction takes place in a very natural way.
I don’t find that people make up their own rules. I find that I often misjudge people based on my own short-sightedness, and that is something I try to avoid.

Absolutely, but you lead a horse to water- doesn’t necessarily mean it will drink. Tend the garden and allow the holy spirit to work the magic. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Ok that makes sense!