Ill. judge throws out rule on contraception

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Rence said:
That’s all according to Church teachings. However, if a SANE nurse is in the ER and happens to be Catholic, and the patient is not Catholic, I don’t see how these rules put forth by the US Bishops will be enforced. In a hospital situation, there are too many people around to just refuse the woman the care she requires. If the SANE nurse won’t administer the plan B, someone else just will. I guess, then, the best bet for a Catholic nurse who wants to be a SANE nurse, is to just work in the ER of Catholic hospitals.
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If a SANE Catholic happens to be a nurse…
 
Joseph_L_Varga said:
Predictably, I disagree, especially with the point that the patient’s perceived “rights” trump my own right, and more than that, my own duty to act in accord with the ethical norms of my profession. Obviously, I’m going to be upfront with the patient - “sorry, I can’t participate in abortion, assisted suicide, or euthanasia”, and we just leave it at that. I mean, if the patient is unhappy that I’m not going to give her a drug to abort her baby, or a drug to kill him/herself, the patient is certainly free to walk out of my pharmacy and seek those things elsewhere.
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Kudos to you for your perseverance. Unfortunately, some people have trouble with the notion that morality trumps legality. There are some that try to completely separate the two, and justify immoral and illicit activity as somehow acceptable because it is legal. This point of view seems to be especially prevalent among the liberal lawyers on this board.

For my part, I was done arguing. I saw that the conversation was leading in circles and I had made my points. Any lurkers would have gleaned from the conversation any points I would have made. Mission accomplished–points made.
 
Rence said:
Because unlike you and I, or at least I, who are fascinated by ultrasounds, xrays, MRI’s, etc., many people are afraid of them. You and I would rather know exactly what was done in the case of triple bypass, aortic abdominal aneurysm, internal fixation of broken bones, hip and knee replacements, etc. But many other people are incredibly put off by this “too much information”. Though I do agree, there should be a requirement to offer the ultrasound.
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Wow!!!

Scared of an ultrasound but fine with an abortion? Would such a person be considered sane and legal to give consent?
 
Suudy said:
Kudos to you for your perseverance. Unfortunately, some people have trouble with the notion that morality trumps legality. There are some that try to completely separate the two, and justify immoral and illicit activity as somehow acceptable because it is legal. This point of view seems to be especially prevalent among the liberal lawyers on this board.

For my part, I was done arguing. I saw that the conversation was leading in circles and I had made my points. Any lurkers would have gleaned from the conversation any points I would have made. Mission accomplished–points made.
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It would appear that many are more wedded to their profession than they are their faith
 
SamH said:
Wow!!!

Scared of an ultrasound but fine with an abortion? Would such a person be considered sane and legal to give consent?
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Any competent abortionists( I know that term is in itself an oxymoron) is going to do an ultrasound regardless rather than going into the womb willy-nilly chopping the child to bits with no idea where the child is.
 
LemonAndLime said:
Hello kimmielittle, I’m training to be a nurse. I’d also like to think I’m sane. Could you please elaborate as to why the two cannot exist together?
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Rence seems to believe that a Sane Nurse would not be bothered by prescibing abortion pills.
 
LemonAndLime said:
Hello kimmielittle, I’m training to be a nurse. I’d also like to think I’m sane. Could you please elaborate as to why the two cannot exist together?
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Hiyas 🙂

I can not …that’s my point.

I was referring to Rence’s post which seems to point that a SANE nurse would be in conflict with the Catholic Church.
 
kimmielittle said:
Hiyas 🙂

I can not …that’s my point.

I was referring to Rence’s post which seems to point that a SANE nurse would be in conflict with the Catholic Church.
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Oh okay, apologies. I read that post and I thought you were agreeing. For a British person I’m not very good at sarcasm. I’ve always thought that Catholicism/Christianity goes very well with the true essence of nursing.
 
LemonAndLime said:
Oh okay, apologies. I read that post and I thought you were agreeing. For a British person I’m not very good at sarcasm. I’ve always thought that Catholicism/Christianity goes very well with the true essence of nursing.
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:)🙂
 
SamH said:
Wow!!!

Scared of an ultrasound but fine with an abortion? Would such a person be considered sane and legal to give consent?
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Not any less sane that the person who gives consent to hip or knee replacement, or triple bypass even, but doesn’t want to know or see all the details about his or her procedure.
 
kimmielittle said:
If a SANE Catholic happens to be a nurse…
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If a SANE Catholic happens to be a nurse, they’d keep themselves out of areas that risk conflicts with their faith, rather than try to impose their religious beliefs on non-Catholics and risk their jobs by refusing to do their jobs, or risk their license due to patient abandonment. There are plenty of areas a nurse can work in, and plenty of Catholic hospitals, nursing homes, doctor’s offices, etc. to work in, so that a Catholic doesn’t have to violate the legal rights of a patient. It’s beyond me why a nurse would work in a place that performs abortions and sterilizations, or routinely gives out birth control or plan B, and then whine about being assigned a patient who is getting an abortion, or who is getting a sterilization, or who seeks birth control or plan B. Why a nurse would purposely creating that trouble for onesself, as well as antagonize patient, is just beyond me. Some people like stirring up trouble, and they thrive on drama. There are so many opportunities for nurses doing things they actually love to do, in places that don’t conflict with their religious values. You can really tell when someone wants to stir the pot, or when they truly like their jobs and enjoy what they do.
 
Rence said:
If a SANE Catholic happens to be a nurse, they’d keep themselves out of areas that risk conflicts with their faith, rather than try to impose their religious beliefs on non-Catholics and risk their jobs by refusing to do their jobs, or risk their license due to patient abandonment. There are plenty of areas a nurse can work in, and plenty of Catholic hospitals, nursing homes, doctor’s offices, etc. to work in, so that a Catholic doesn’t have to violate the legal rights of a patient. It’s beyond me why a nurse would work in a place that performs abortions and sterilizations, or routinely gives out birth control or plan B, and then whine about being assigned a patient who is getting an abortion, or who is getting a sterilization, or who seeks birth control or plan B. Why a nurse would purposely creating that trouble for onesself, as well as antagonize patient, is just beyond me. Some people like stirring up trouble, and they thrive on drama. There are so many opportunities for nurses doing things they actually love to do, in places that don’t conflict with their religious values. You can really tell when someone wants to stir the pot, or when they truly like their jobs and enjoy what they do.
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So Catholic should be excluded from working in obstetrics, emergency rooms or anyplace else where the culture deems it is permissible for women to kill their children?
 
estesbob said:
So Catholic should be excluded from working in obstetrics, emergency rooms or anyplace else where the culture deems it is permissible for women to kill their children?
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No, they should work either in 1) catholic institutions (and there are still plenty of them) or 2) be sure when they are interviewing for the job that they can find reassignments if an assigment conflicts with their religious views. One thing they should not do is lie to their interviewer.
 
Rence said:
No, they should work either in 1) catholic institutions (and there are still plenty of them) or 2) be sure when they are interviewing for the job that they can find reassignments if an assigment conflicts with their religious views. One thing they should not do is lie to their interviewer.
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I think this is common sense advice. You would have very little sympathy as a nurse if you voluntarily decided to take a job somewhere where you knew you would be unable to assist with some of the procedures due to religious/moral beliefs, and then refused to fulfill your job description.

I’m sorry estebob but I disagree with you. The Catholic nurse’s right to practice her faith and her beliefs (assuming it’s a she) is not greater than the right of the patient to recieve “treatment” that is their legal right if they ask for it. We are required as Catholics to ensure we do not put ourselves into such a position that could lead us to sin therefore I believe a boycott of nurses to not work in certain areas is entirely reasonable.

Just to add - abortion clinics and labour wards tend to be different areas with different staff, so a Catholic nurse could still work at a maternity ward. Also I do not think they perform abortions at the emergency room/accident and emergency wards, unless it is a life-or-death issue and the mother’s life is in danger, and the treatment the mother requires has to be carried out immediately. What scenario did you imagine where it would be impossible for a Catholic nurse to work at an emergency ward?
 
Rence said:
If a SANE Catholic happens to be a nurse, they’d keep themselves out of areas that risk conflicts with their faith, rather than try to impose their religious beliefs on non-Catholics and risk their jobs by refusing to do their jobs, or risk their license due to patient abandonment.
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You have a habit of bringing this up " Patient abandonment", Can you provide us with evidence that invoking a conscious clause
has caused a case of patient abandonment?

The LAW says and these Judges agree, that a Nurse / Doctor / Pharmacist have protection of conscious.

NO one is imposing their beliefs upon another Another feeble argument you seem fond of IMO] The conscious clause also works so that a non-Catholic can’t impose their beliefs on Catholics OR ANYONE - You do know it’s just not Catholics? I know pro-life Atheists who work in health ] who don’t believe murdering babies is an answer.
Some people like stirring up trouble, and they thrive on drama. There are so many opportunities for nurses doing things they actually love to do, in places that don’t conflict with their religious values. You can really tell when someone wants to stir the pot, or when they truly like their jobs and enjoy what they do.
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Yeppers!!! I’ve read a number of posts like that.

Frankly, they turn my stomach.😦
 
As someone said in a previous post, you can’t trump morality with legality. Just because another person may not believe in the Catholic morality doesn’t mean that God doesn’t expect them to live by a set of moral standards – say, the ten commandments?

There are many things that are legal in the U.S.A. that are immoral. Aiding people who do NOT believe them to be immoral is not something we should do. Sure, they may have the LEGAL right to do something, but they do not have the MORAL right to do it and the latter part is what should concern us.

Sadly, it seems to me that some people have been saying that if you don’t want to do that stuff, then don’t become such-and-such. Nonsense! Catholics have every right to be in the medical profession, but if they’re forced to give contraceptives, etc., because of the “rights” of other people, pretty soon there won’t be any [real] Catholics left in those areas.
 
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