Ill. judge throws out rule on contraception

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Because it’s a collectivist idea that imposes the tyranny of a dictatorship on the individual, claiming the right to trample individual freedoms in the name of the “common good”. In the USSR and the Soviet bloc, it was the Communist Party who knew best what were the requirements of the “common good”, which justified forcing the individual whatever they wanted him to do, and they did actually collectivize private property. They could not force the individual to do what they wanted him to do on his own land, or in his own pharmacy. Thus, they confiscated lands, confiscated pharmacies, confiscated businesses, so that ultimately the state owned everything, and individuals became serfs to the state. It was the state’s pharmacy, you as an individual could not own your pharmacy, and you were expected to do what the state told you to do, or else you lost your job. There was no way for you as an individual to have your own pharmacy, and run it independently from the state.

Lemon and Lime’s idea is in the same mold. The only thing she didn’t advocate for is confiscating people’s pharmacies. But she advocates for the state trampling on my freedoms and forcing me out of my business, as long as I refuse to submit to a certain ruling clique’s idea of “common good”. And this ruling clique is made up of representatives of the Culture of Death, and feminists, “I know better than thou” types who are every bit as arrogant as Lenin and Stalin were. Just look at Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich, on the apropos of whose regulations this thread was started. Who the hell is Rod Blagojevich and what does he know about bioethics, to have the gall to impose his own tyranny on pharmacists in Illinois, and to expect them to give drugs to women that will kill their babies? Rod Blagojevich is a little Stalin, and Lemon and Lime presented an apology of this tyranny.
Okay so your logic is that any kind of law which says that a pharmacist does not have the right to refuse to give treatment based on moral/ethical beliefs is a Stalinist/communist teaching as it’s the state trying to impose a law onto you on how to operate your business.

So, tell me - are their any laws currently in place which regulate pharmacists? Why aren’t these other laws socialist? Surely laws like age-restricted medicines are just the state imposing on individual freedoms.

The reason I didn’t advocate state-ownership is because that’s an extreme socialist idea. There is nothing socialist about my post, but if you think there is I would like you to quote me.

I would also recommend you calm down. Can there ever be a thread on this forum without someone accusing someone else of being a socialist? :rolleyes:
 
I agree with you there is nothing about the occupation of a pharmacist that should require them to dispense the morning after pill, but I’m puzzled as to why you call the idea Leninist or Stalinist?
I should have added Mao and the genocide in China as well.

The state in China knows better than thou. If you are a mother, pregnant with your second child, the state will force you to abort.

I don’t know about pharmacists and doctors in China, but I imagine the state expects them as well to dispense contraceptive and abortive drugs, and carry out surgical abortions, “for the common good”.

It’s a collectivist idea, and a trampling of individual freedoms.

The idea that Rod Blagojevich can force pharmacists in Illinois to become baby killers, speaks of the same collectivist mindset to me. It’s the mindset that the state is the master, and pharmacists are serfs expected to do what the state tells them to do. The mindset of a tyrant who imposes his own ideas on others, forces them to become criminals, all in the name of his own idea of what “the common good” should be.
 
Yet I’ve never heard of such a situation.
Nor can I imagine it.

A pharmacist, opposed to anti-life care
working for a clinic that is anti-life?

Nope. Never heard of it.

Like Joseph said, pharmacies most familiar to me
are family-founded, family-owned and family-run.
So you are not going to respond to a hypothetical situation because it is hypothetical and something you have never encountered in your life?

I’m sorry, but I thought the point of hypothetical situations was just that. The point of them is to provide a scenario that may/may not have happened and ask people how they would respond to them.

But to humour you, I will embroider the hypothetical situation further - let’s say this pharmacist wants to work in this sexual health clinic which mainly deals with sexual diseases/UTIs and the treatment of them. Contraception is also given out but this pharmacist would never be working alone (so there may be someone else available to give it out instead). So they take the job, knowing that giving out contraception is part of the job description yet figuring that the situation may never arise. Turns out however that the other pharmacist rings in sick and someone asks the Catholic pharmacist to give out contraception. If they refuse, they are breaking the terms of their contract and denying the customer the right for legal treatment, but if they consent they are doing something they consider morally wrong.

Whose rights are more important? The employee who has deliberately put themselves into this situation or the customer? This is the dilemma I see happening and I think it is unfair to both.
 
I should have added Mao and the genocide in China as well.

The state in China knows better than thou. If you are a mother, pregnant with your second child, the state will force you to abort.

I don’t know about pharmacists and doctors in China, but I imagine the state expects them as well to dispense contraceptive and abortive drugs, and carry out surgical abortions, “for the common good”.

It’s a collectivist idea, and a trampling of individual freedoms.

The idea that Rod Blagojevich can force pharmacists in Illinois to become baby killers, speaks of the same collectivist mindset to me. It’s the mindset that the state is the master, and pharmacists are serfs expected to do what the state tells them to do. The mindset of a tyrant who imposes his own ideas on others, forces them to become criminals, all in the name of his own idea of what “the common good” should be.
So by your logic, any law imposed by the state on your free will is bad and socialist.

So what about the laws for murder, fraud, building permits, drugs, alcohol?
 
I know nurses and other professionals are not compelled to do so. But my point is, if you deliberately put yourself in a situation where you are unable to do the job you are expected to do then why should your right to choose a job be more important than the patient’s right to have legal medicine? A nurse working in an abortion clinic yet refusing to care for any of the patients, for example. Or a pharmacist working at a sexual health clinic. Or a Muslim man working at a non-halal pork butchers.

I would appreciate if it someone could respond to this point without going on a rant about socialism, terrorism, the evils of contraception or abortion. I had not realised I had entered a thread in which members ranted about their favourite hate-topics with very little excuse. I am here talking about a moral dilemma.
LemonAndLime, I highlighted part of your post in red. If I was a pharmacist who agreed to be employed at a private firm like Planned Parenthood, yes I would understand that my employer expected me to dispense Plan B (levonorgestrel), Mifeprest (mifepristone, RU-486), methotrexate and so on, all of which cause abortions. It’s a private employer, this is his core business, and these are his expectations.

But I’m talking about running my own pharmacy, and frankly, for the state or for any individual to expect me to do that which I find abhorrent, is ridiculous. More than ridiculous, it’s threatening, and it’s offensive.
 
I don’t know about pharmacists and doctors in China, but I imagine the state expects them as well to dispense contraceptive and abortive drugs, and carry out surgical abortions, “for the common good”.
It’s a collectivist idea, and a trampling of individual freedoms.
I’m not so sure it is. I don’t disagree with you about the idea, just the motives, to be clear. I think it’s more about taking the individual rights of some too far at the expense of those of others, comparable to the old southern defense of slavery; they were, in a sense, defending their freedoms, but some of those freedoms happened to engulf the freedoms of others. Today, it;s more like, anything that comes remotely close to limiting sexual activity, even if the reason has nothing to do with sex (though so many pro-choice people still think Christians are just trying to keep them from “having fun,” rather than about killing the unborn). I think in this case, the argument is that the customer’s sexual rights supercede the right of the pharmacist to act in accord with his conscience, which I of course don’t think is the case.
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LemonAndLime:
Good point, true the customer could go to a different pharmacy. But what about my scenario of the pharmacist who works at a sexual health clinic but doesn’t want to give out any contraception? What if you deliberately put yourself in a job in which you are going to frequently be in this situation or its in your job description?
True, the case of a sexual health clinic would be different. But I would think that would be a very outlandish for someone who objects to this going to work at a sexual health clinic. I imagine the clinic should (maybe they already do?) ask potential employees if they might object to doing anything in the job desscription, and I think the applicant should defnitely alert the clinic of a preference not to dispense the morning after pill. In which case, if this were thought to be essential to the job, the clinic could not hire them.

Of course, I don’t know the law well enough to know whether that could be construed as discrimination.
 
So you are not going to respond to a hypothetical situation because it is hypothetical and something you have never encountered in your life?

I’m sorry, but I thought the point of hypothetical situations was just that. The point of them is to provide a scenario that may/may not have happened and ask people how they would respond to them.

But to humour you, I will embroider the hypothetical situation further - let’s say this pharmacist wants to work in this sexual health clinic which mainly deals with sexual diseases/UTIs and the treatment of them. Contraception is also given out but this pharmacist would never be working alone (so there may be someone else available to give it out instead). So they take the job, knowing that giving out contraception is part of the job description yet figuring that the situation may never arise. Turns out however that the other pharmacist rings in sick and someone asks the Catholic pharmacist to give out contraception. If they refuse, they are breaking the terms of their contract and denying the customer the right for legal treatment, but if they consent they are doing something they consider morally wrong.

Whose rights are more important? The employee who has deliberately put themselves into this situation or the customer? This is the dilemma I see happening and I think it is unfair to both.
There can be no meaningful exchange about your hypothetical scene.
For Catholics, conscience leads the way. In the States, at least, there
are many Catholics in healthcare who would never take the “chance” that
an employer was involved in anti-life activites that MIGHT be demanded of
Catholic employees at some point. That is across the board: doctors,
nurses, aides, pharmacists - all in healthcare are very careful about who
might be willing to employ them and under what demands. This is
as true for Catholics in China who could be eliminated for refusing to do the
bidding of an anti-God, anti-life state; some will leave medicine before sinning
in such a way. No one is saying that is easy - simply that it is expected.
 
There can be no meaningful exchange about your hypothetical scene.
For Catholics, conscience leads the way. In the States, at least, there
are many Catholics in healthcare who would never take the “chance” that
an employer was involved in anti-life activites that MIGHT be demanded of
Catholic employees at some point. That is across the board: doctors,
nurses, aides, pharmacists - all in healthcare are very careful about who
might be willing to employ them and under what demands. This is
as true for Catholics in China who could be eliminated for refusing to do the
bidding of an anti-God, anti-life state; some will leave medicine before sinning
in such a way. No one is saying that is easy - simply that it is expected.
What is the point in responding to my posts if you are actually not responding to the content?
 
I know nurses and other professionals are not compelled to do so. But my point is, if you deliberately put yourself in a situation where you are unable to do the job you are expected to do then why should your right to choose a job be more important than the patient’s right to have legal medicine? A nurse working in an abortion clinic yet refusing to care for any of the patients, for example. Or a pharmacist working at a sexual health clinic. Or a Muslim man working at a non-halal pork butchers.

I would appreciate if it someone could respond to this point without going on a rant about socialism, terrorism, the evils of contraception or abortion. I had not realised I had entered a thread in which members ranted about their favourite hate-topics with very little excuse. I am here talking about a moral dilemma.
May I rant about St. Thomas More for a moment?

He said it best of all: “I am a loyal servant of the
King, but of GOD first.” We owe our allegiance to
GOD and His laws, not to other people or to the
State. First and foremost, we serve GOD. There
is no other choice allowed to us.
 
Your premise is at fault.
There are certain FORBIDDENS.
Do you grasp that fact?
So you are responding to say you are not going to respond to my question because you believe the question is wrong, because in your opinion it will never happen. Well, to be honest, you’re the only person. Everyone else who responded to me has tried to answer my question.
 
I hope that when euthanasia is legalized, pharmacists will have conscience rights to refuse to dispense the death pill. But you never know.
 
LemonAndLime, please forgive me, I got carried away. :o

Indeed, nowhere in your post can I see you advocating that my pharmacy should be confiscated if I refuse to dispense Plan B. 😃

But, to return to Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich, and his rule: this wasn’t about expecting pharmacists who work for Planned Parenthood, to dispense Plan B. They have already sold their souls to Satan, that’s why they agreed to work for Planned Parenthood in the first place. There’s no need for Rod Blagojevich to pass laws in order to force these sellouts to do what they have already agreed to do. Also, there’s no need to pass laws, forcing the lap dancers employed in a strip-tease bar, to give lap dances to customers.

The law Rod Blagojevich passed in Illinois was about forcing everybody, every single pharmacist in Illinois to sell Plan B. And the moral equivalent of that would be passing a law forcing every single restaurant to offer lap dances to the customers.

Just because there are some out there who willingly become lap dancers and prostitutes, Gov. Blagojevich shouldn’t expect everybody to do that. And just because there are some who willingly became baby killers, Gov. Blagojevich shouldn’t expect **all pharmacists in the state of Illinois **to become murderers, either.
 
So you are responding to say you are not going to respond to my question because you believe the question is wrong, because in your opinion it will never happen. Well, to be honest, you’re the only person. Everyone else who responded to me has tried to answer my question.
I am clearly responding to your hypothesis.
It has happened as fact and can happen again.
In such a situation we MUST turn to faith.
There is no other option. We obey GOD, not man.

Who deserves our allegiance?
Our employer? Our customer? Our conscience?

Clearly it is our conscience that calls us to GOD’S will.
It is that simple - and since I opened this thread, I will
continue to repond to your hypothesis that we owe more
to an employer or a customer than we do to GOD.

What you are suggesting (“serve the public”) is insufficient
in any circumstance such as this. You can pretend I am
not responding to you, but in fact, I am. You simply don’t
like my response. So be it.
 
I hope that when euthanasia is legalized, pharmacists will have conscience rights to refuse to dispense the death pill. But you never know.
Well, euthanasia/assisted suicide has been legalized in Washington and Oregon, and very recently on February 18, 2011, President Obama’s administration lifted the conscience rule passed previously by Pres. Bush in 2008. That means, if you are a pharmacist working at a Veterans Administration Hospital in WA or OR, and the patient wants to use his legal right to commit suicide and expects you to give him the poison, you are toast. Right now, there’s no law or regulation saying that you as a pharmacist have the right to refuse to do that.
 
I think I’m against this. Just because you give someone the pill, doesn’t mean that you’re responsible for their actions. Just like if you sell a gun to someone, you’re not responsible for that persons murder

Than again, day after pill…
 
I am clearly responding to your hypothesis.
It has happened as fact and can happen again.
In such a situation we MUST turn to faith.
There is no other option. We obey GOD, not man.

Who deserves our allegiance?
Our employer? Our customer? Our conscience?

Clearly it is our conscience that calls us to GOD’S will.
It is that simple - and since I opened this thread, I will
continue to repond to your hypothesis that we owe more
to an employer or a customer than we do to GOD.

What you are suggesting (“serve the public”) is insufficient
in any circumstance such as this. You can pretend I am
not responding to you, but in fact, I am. You simply don’t
like my response. So be it.
But you said a few posts back that it has not happened and never will? My scenario?
 
Yet in this nation, protection of rights for
one’s conscience have always been the norm,
not the exception. ObamaRule seems to consider
this right to be a “nothing.”
Geez, can’t there be one thread that doesn’t mention Obama?
 
But you said a few posts back that it has not happened and never will? My scenario?
In Post # 88, I said that such a situation will never
exist that demands deviance from Catholics and
others who know better. The situation can arise but
the Catholic must ALWAYS choose life.

What you present as a dilemma is, for me,
in the final analysis, no dilemma at all.

As Thomas More told Henry VIII:
“I am your faithful servant
but I am GOD’S first.”

The demands of others, even of governments,
can NOT force us to sin. Always, we must choose GOOD.
 
I think I’m against this. Just because you give someone the pill, doesn’t mean that you’re responsible for their actions. Just like if you sell a gun to someone, you’re not responsible for that persons murder

Than again, day after pill…
What if you sell a gun to someone who
intends to kill himself - or others - with
that gun … and you KNOW that fact?

Where is your culpability then?
Maybe as a co-conspirator???
 
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