Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily

[Ituyu]

Do I sense another maudlin tangent springing forth from this thread?

“Maudlin”? You mean as in the American Holocaust, the Jewish Holocaust, or the Passion?

“Giving America back to Hispanics” is rhetoric based on something that does not exist. Hispanics having a voice in America is about having a “voice” not about taking anything from America. Having a voice is how Hispanics can participate in the American tradition. The lack of that “voice” is historic in dimension.

If you think immigration law is unjust, are you so different from people who think the law is unjust that says babies born here should automatically receive citizenship?

Yes, there is a major difference! How can you compare the merits of two injustices? We contradicted natural market forces in an attempt to keep these people out. The decision was purely ARBITRARY. It did not serve the “Common Good”, theirs or ours. We didn’t apply the existing Immigration laws to these people we simply refused to consider them. We closed the door AND made it “illegal” for them to come. Yet, we KNEW that our interests would be best served if they came. That is why we looked the other way. We created a problem where there was none.

Why should we deprive American citizens their birthrights using an arbitrary law, a law with no basis, as the rationale? Why, should we punish an innocent baby for the actions of another?

Your opinion of what should be does not make it so, and it also does not necessarily spring from some great virtue or vice, but from your opinion and experience, which affects which “facts” you will trust.

The fact is that our decision to “criminalize” certain people was based on something other than our needs as a nation. We know that their individual merits were not considered in the decision. Shouldn’t laws have a purpose?

 

[Ituyu]

For example, when the Mexicans in my old apartment complex (not sure if they were legal or not, but they certainly weren’t assimilated or assimilating) stole my car right from my own assigned parking spot outside my apartment on CHRISTMAS EVE, trashed it, then laughed when the cops helped me get the decimated shell of a car back, I then began to form an opinion about Mexicans (particularly Mexican men) and Mexican culture.

First you say that you “don’t know” their “legal” status, so how can you justify blaming the “illegal”? How can you blame one person for the crime of another?
Why would one make judgments on a “whole” culture or group based on a negative experience to the exclusion of all other facts? Had an African American been guilty that does that prove that all African Americans are thieves? Or, if a White man was guilty does that prove the same thing?

Again, they are already criminalized by current law. And the rest of your sentence is a little hazy to me .
We know what the current law says but we also know that the decision was arbitrary just like your conclusions about innocent people, those that did not steal your car.

It seems you have gotten this wording from the US Bishops statements, which I find to be seriously flawed and here is why: …However, to say that I would not be making substantially more money if Mexicans and other Latinos were not grappling for my job is, to me, “not reflecting reality”. Those dollar double-cheeseburgers are incredibly cheap, aren’t they? Guess why?

We do know why. Do you know what would happen to the cost of living without their labor and without their consumption? Unemployment would increase not decrease, we wouldn’t need as many workers, inflation would increase and our standard of living would decline. That’s not only a poor trade-off, it’s not justifiable.

God placed the secular government in charge of the land. Like it or not, wars and such do determine who gets to make the laws. The indigenous Aztecs understood that long before the Spanish got here.

Did God vote for these people? Isn’t part of our current predicament that we have “free will”? How, does the fact that we make “bad” decisions mean that God approves of those decisions?

 

[Ituyu]

Perhaps you also picked this up from the US Bishops: in one breath they will say “of course the US has the right to enforce borders and immigration policy” and then they make no further indication that they actually believe this in anything else they say.

Yes, the Bishops do reflect Church teaching on the matter and it is line with immigration policies that allow legal entry based on meeting specific prerequisites. The decision that created this current group of “illegal” immigrants does not follow those guidelines. We said even though you may meet all the criteria for “legal” entry, YOU may not come in. Why? Just because. That is one reason why the Church advocates for these people. Do you find that to be inconsistent with Church Teaching?

I don’t know if the title of this thread is precisely true.

Actually we DO KNOW that the study offered on this thread IS unreliable. It uses a pre-determined conclusion and manipulates the information to support that conclusion. It’s hate mongering offered as science.

As others have already said, the government does not even keep track of the number and types of crimes illegal aliens commit. (WHY NOT???) But whether the number is 12 a day or 1 a day or whatever, I don’t find it unthinkable that it is indicative of a problematic reality.

Doesn’t a “problematic reality” need “real” information and not statistics pulled out of thin air? I don’t think that one can say that there is a cause and effect relationship to homicides. So of what value do you think such a study might be?

From the study offered in this thread, we already know that the statistics used against the “illegal” are essentially MANUFACTURED and if taken at face value those rates are lower than that for “native” criminals.

The information that you seek is simply not available and it takes time and money to collect the data, compile it and then interpret it through an in depth study which would be extremely expensive. It can be done but is it justifiable?

 

[urban-hermit]

“Maudlin”? You mean as in the American Holocaust, the Jewish Holocaust, or the Passion?

I meant avoiding any unwarranted frenzies of emotion, and trying to stay on topic. I can see this is close to your heart, and I respect that. Maybe you are right and I am wrong. But my personal experiences don’t seem to line up with that. As you pointed out, a lot of the factors in this debate are difficult to quantify. People tend to go more with what they see from their own vantage point in life, rather than, as you also mentioned, looking to studies and statistics and such. Most people know that statistics are useful but can also be mis-represented, so they are not going to replace peoples’ opinions formed from their direct day-to-day experience anyway. So I guess we have to respect one anothers’ opinions and accept that no amount of argumentation is likely to change somebody else’s mind, even as we do try to win others over to our view, because that’s part of why this forum exists.

My basic position on this issue is that laws need to be followed. Murder is, of course, illegal and pretty much unconditionally wrong. Coming into the country illegally is also illegal (sorry for the goofy phrasing). If somebody is starving in their home country, then I would say that it is warranted for them to break the law and come here illegally. For the people with whom I am acquainted from Mexico who have confided to me without shame that they are here illegally (I never ask but a very few have told me anyway) this is not the case. They are here because they want more money and that is it. So for them - and they are the only ones I know about for sure but i feel it is reasonable to believe they are not the only ones doing this - but for them, I feel this is wrong: they should stay in Mexico until they get the proper papers fair and square, like most other aliens do. We already let a large number of legal aliens in. But if the law as it is now was followed, and the situation is really as you say (that more foreigners are sorely needed here for economic reasons) then it might not be long before the US raised the limits further and ended up asking them to come here and work. Then they could have the dignity of knowing that they are following the law, and not have to put on a lot of bravado to mask the fact that they are not following the law but actually their own idea of what they feel is fair.

 

[Ituyu]

I meant avoiding any unwarranted frenzies of emotion, and trying to stay on topic. I can see this is close to your heart, and I respect that. Maybe you are right and I am wrong. But my personal experiences don’t seem to line up with that. As you pointed out, a lot of the factors in this debate are difficult to quantify. People tend to go more with what they see from their own vantage point in life, rather than, as you also mentioned, looking to studies and statistics and such. Most people know that statistics are useful but can also be mis-represented, so they are not going to replace peoples’ opinions formed from their direct day-to-day experience anyway. So I guess we have to respect one anothers’ opinions and accept that no amount of argumentation is likely to change somebody else’s mind, even as we do try to win others over to our view, because that’s part of why this forum exists.

My basic position on this issue is that laws need to be followed. Murder is, of course, illegal and pretty much unconditionally wrong. Coming into the country illegally is also illegal (sorry for the goofy phrasing). If somebody is starving in their home country, then I would say that it is warranted for them to break the law and come here illegally. For the people with whom I am acquainted from Mexico who have confided to me without shame that they are here illegally (I never ask but a very few have told me anyway) this is not the case. They are here because they want more money and that is it. So for them - and they are the only ones I know about for sure but i feel it is reasonable to believe they are not the only ones doing this - but for them, I feel this is wrong: they should stay in Mexico until they get the proper papers fair and square, like most other aliens do. We already let a large number of legal aliens in. But if the law as it is now was followed, and the situation is really as you say (that more foreigners are sorely needed here for economic reasons) then it might not be long before the US raised the limits further and ended up asking them to come here and work. Then they could have the dignity of knowing that they are following the law, and not have to put on a lot of bravado to mask the fact that they are not following the law but actually their own idea of what they feel is fair.

I feel that you’re a sufficiently intelligent person to conduct a straightforward and civil discussion. I answered all of the questions posed by you but you did not address most of mine. Would you do me the honor?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

… They know the injustice and discrimination they suffer originated from others who entered the SW not the indigenous people of the SW and that is what their signs contain. For thousands of years indigenous people moved around this region whether for drought, illness, hostile people/tribes, etc. the movement has always been here. Now people from outside the region are coming in and drawing lines. They claim their new lines have great meaning, the people who hold the signs know better. They know better because an imaginary line does not cause discrimination of the indigenous people born on BOTH SIDES which is what they see in their everyday life. Whether they spend Monday on one side of the new line and Tuesday on the other side of the new line means nothing to them. Other people are trying to impose this change on the indigenous people. The indigenous people feel no need to justify SW customs to those who move in to the SW. Second they are not “Pro-Mexican” in your logic, as their ancestors have been all over the SW even before the border existed they do not feel unwelcome, or unequal to their family which happens to be born on the other side of the new line. Thus the Mexican flag is not an unwelcome or inferior flag to them.

That is such nonsense. These aren’t nomadic tribes in Africa, these are people who disregard the laws at there convenience. Those slogans on those signs are the evidence that they are grasping for straws. These ‘indeginous’ people haven’t been seasonally migrating across the border for the last 1000 yrs to hang vinyl siding or do landscaping work; they come here for tax free income w/ free health benfits provided by your county hospital. This whole idea about indeginous peoples continueing to do what they have done for thousands of years is just a load of horse hockey.

Thank you Mr South Carolina for telling me how it must be in Texas!

 

[Texas_Roofer]

That is such nonsense. These aren’t nomadic tribes in Africa, these are people who disregard the laws at there convenience. Those slogans on those signs are the evidence that they are grasping for straws. These ‘indeginous’ people haven’t been seasonally migrating across the border for the last 1000 yrs to hang vinyl siding or do landscaping work; they come here for tax free income w/ free health benfits provided by your county hospital. This whole idea about indeginous peoples continueing to do what they have done for thousands of years is just a load of horse hockey.

nomadic tribes in Africa
hang vinyl siding
do landscaping work
horse hockey
your county hospital

I wonder why employers hire them as opposed to …

 

[wabrams]

nomadic tribes in Africa
hang vinyl siding
do landscaping work
horse hockey
your county hospital

I wonder why employers hire them as opposed to …

You’re an intelligent enough person to understand what I was getting at, and we both now it wasn’t some uneducated, rascist diatribe. So don’t try and spin it that way.

 

[urban-hermit]

Ituyu said: I feel that you’re a sufficiently intelligent person to conduct a straightforward and civil discussion.
Thanks. I see it not as being a matter of intelligence, but whether or not a person is really listening to the other person, and really open to seeing things another way. Not in terms of changing your opinion, but of understanding why the other person has the opinion they do. If a person doesn’t have ears of attentive openness, dialog is a waste of time.

I answered all of the questions posed by you but you did not address most of mine. Would you do me the honor?
You want me to answer ALL your questions? It’s just I don’t have too much time to spend on these forums. But since I’ve chimed in so vociferously with my opinions I guess I do owe you some response time. I will try to make it brief.

“Giving America back to Hispanics” is rhetoric based on something that does not exist. Hispanics having a voice in America is about having a “voice” not about taking anything from America. Having a voice is how Hispanics can participate in the American tradition. The lack of that “voice” is historic in dimension.
I think this is another thread. I would just fall back on what I said in my previous post: barring any direct threat to life or some other essential human right, laws need to be followed whether you personally think they are just or not. Non-citizens do not have a direct, deciding, voting voice in US policy.

Yes, there is a major difference! How can you compare the merits of two injustices? [immigration law and at-birth auto-citizenship] We contradicted natural market forces in an attempt to keep these people out. The decision was purely ARBITRARY. It did not serve the “Common Good”, theirs or ours. We didn’t apply the existing Immigration laws to these people we simply refused to consider them. We closed the door AND made it “illegal” for them to come. Yet, we KNEW that our interests would be best served if they came. That is why we looked the other way. We created a problem where there was none.

Why should we deprive American citizens their birthrights using an arbitrary law, a law with no basis, as the rationale? Why, should we punish an innocent baby for the actions of another?
I think this is another thread again. But again I would fall back on my position that laws need to be followed. I don’t think our laws are arbitrary or unjust. That’s where we simply don’t see the same reality. If the laws are truly unjust, and you can convince a majority of voting US citizens that they are unjust, then the laws can and should be changed by an established legal process.

The fact is that our decision to “criminalize” certain people was based on something other than our needs as a nation. We know that their individual merits were not considered in the decision. Shouldn’t laws have a purpose?
I see the laws having a purpose. I don’t see us “criminalizing” people: I see people “criminalizing” themselves when they break the law. Maybe they don’t even know what the laws are. But they broke them if they’re here illegally. That doesn’t mean they’re intrinsically bad people. But they are outside the law, that is an important point to me.

 

[urban-hermit]

First you say that you “don’t know” their “legal” status [the men who stole my car], so how can you justify blaming the “illegal”? How can you blame one person for the crime of another?
Why would one make judgments on a “whole” culture or group based on a negative experience to the exclusion of all other facts? Had an African American been guilty that does that prove that all African Americans are thieves? Or, if a White man was guilty does that prove the same thing?
This incident reinforced a perception I have that observing the law diligently is something that is simply not done by Mexicans to the extent it is done by assimilated US citizens. That is an opinion of mine that I do not think you will be able to change whatever you say to me over the internet here. It involves my direct experiences, and it is more than just that one incident (although that was the worst one). Whether they were legal or illegal is irrelevant to the assertion I was making: Mexicans, in general, have less respect for the law than Americans do. I am not saying ALL Mexicans - I know many very law-abiding Mexican people. These are the kind of Mexicans who go to Mass on Sunday, and they are even a smaller minority in Mexico than church-goers are here in the US. But my opinion is that, overall, for whatever cultural reasons - probably poverty has a lot to do with it - Mexicans do not have the same respect for the law that Americans do. I think you can see that if you look at their country. But I’m sure we will disagree on that and I’m not sure it’s worth arguing about. I have my opinion and you have yours.

urban-hermit said: Again, they are already criminalized by current law.
ituyu said: We know what the current law says but we also know that the decision was arbitrary just like your conclusions about innocent people, those that did not steal your car.
I don’t think the law is arbitrary, and I don’t think my conclusion that I will never again live in an apartment complex with a large, unassimilated Mexican population is, either. About that I think we are just going to continue to disagree.

Did God vote for these people? [the current US government] Isn’t part of our current predicament that we have “free will”? How, does the fact that we make “bad” decisions mean that God approves of those decisions?
I was referring to the separation of church and state that we have. I did not mean that God approves of every move the government makes. But the way society is set up right now, the Church’s role is to educate people, who change the government through elections and such.

Yes, the Bishops do reflect Church teaching on the matter and it is line with immigration policies that allow legal entry based on meeting specific prerequisites. The decision that created this current group of “illegal” immigrants does not follow those guidelines. We said even though you may meet all the criteria for “legal” entry, YOU may not come in. Why? Just because.
I don’t think it is “just because”. There are limits to the number of people who can migrate from Mexico to the US. When the limit is reached for that year, the rest of the people will have to stay in Mexico until the next group of people is allowed in the following year. That seems logical and reasonable to me.

 

[raggakitten]

The cafeteria “catholics” KKK…

Wow, what else? Please, post more hateful threads, I wanna get away from this forum RUNNING and without doubt…

The people who are with me and pray for PEACE and for a world that God created for EVERYBODY, will DEFINITELY agree that this type of topic are ridiculous to discuss in a place where everyone should be PRAYING for a better world!
Not just trying to make our differences more clear…

And just for your information… AMERICA is NOT only the people from U.S.A., is the ENTIRE America (north, central and south AMERICA), so even the title is wrong to begin with.

May God have mercy on our souls, because not even in a forum can one find peaceful topics…

 

[pnewton]

The cafeteria “catholics” KKK…

From the forum rules:

Messages posted to this board must be polite and free of personal attacks

and again

Speculation about the character and intentions of the players is generally a very bad idea

I think your name-calling is a little over the top, especially when you call your brothers and sister “Godless” as you did in your first post.

 

[tasso]

RESOURCES!!!! We do not have unlimited resources in this country. We have millions of Americans uninsured and that includes children. We
cannot…nor should we be expected to take care of everyone. That is not feasible. This is the United States and an American child should take precedence over an immigrant child…because we do not have the ability to care for them all.

Would we be so well taken care of if we went to Mexico and needed free health care? Hmmm…somehow I doubt it. We surely would be incarcerated if we went there illegally…

:heart:Blyss

Did Jesus send the crowd away because there were only five fishes and bread? No he didn’t but he told the discibles to hand them out, and voila, there was enough for everybody. This is the power of love. Once we start giving we suddenly start to realise, that there always will be enough for everybody. Ok. you might not have all the luxuries you used to have before, but hey, who needs them really?

I walk through the streets in my city, and i’m surprised, how much food is thrown away in each corner every day. We westerners are so wasteful and than we talk about not having enough to share with others. Come on, get real. It’s not about scarcity, it’s about greed. The West builds it’s prosperity on the back of the poor and wants to protect it from them. Children are dying everyday because of hunger and we hardly shed a tear but are worried, that we might have to sell one of our two cars because of these “illegal” immigrants. Get some perspective on life. Borders don’t stop outsiders from being your neighbour. We are still responsible for each other. When a child dies from hunger it is also my fault and yours. Why, because we do too little to stop it from happening because we are too busy trying to protect our little selfs. That is what our current Immigration-rules are really all about.

And yes, coming back to your earlier post, because of current Immigration policies there is the danger of criminal elements coming into the country. In fact more so because of these strict rules, as criminals come mixed amongst all the desperate people who try to cross the border “illegally”. If immigration rules were more relaxed and fairer, criminals would have a much harder time to hide amongst the many that currently have to cross “illegally”. So, if you want criminals to stop coming into your country and murder your fellow citizens, work towards fairer immigration rules.

And by the way, Mexicans are Americans, too. Or is it only the US that has the right to be “American”?

 

[tasso]

There are limits to the number of people who can migrate from Mexico to the US. When the limit is reached for that year, the rest of the people will have to stay in Mexico until the next group of people is allowed in the following year. That seems logical and reasonable to me.

That would be fine if no preferences will be made for people better off. But in my experience unfortunately here in Britain, it is money that is doing all the talking. I have a slight inkling that this is not so much different in the US. Or do you have a first come first go policy irrespective of background, colour, education and financial status (except a criminal past)?

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

That would be fine if no preferences will be made for people better off. But in my experience unfortunately here in Britain, it is money that is doing all the talking. I have a slight inkling that this is not so much different in the US. Or do you have a first come first go policy irrespective of background, colour, education and financial status (except a criminal past)?

FYI…I believe your inkling is wrong. In my city we have immigrants from the middle east who do not have higher educations. They are poor and Catholic Social Services help provide for them and their needs. Same for immigrants from eastern Europe…and…the far east. Many come with little more than the clothes on their backs. BUT…because they come here LEGALLY…they are welcomed. I do NOT welcome ANYONE (and it doesn’t matter what nationality) that sneaks into this country AGAINST the laws of this country. We are a nation of laws and that is what keeps us from anarchy. I don’t know about your situation in Britain…but it seems to me that your lax immigration policies over time have helped exacerbate the problems with terror and those who would do you harm. Maybe Britain should look to the USA for guidance.

:heart:Blyss

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

Several years ago there were several boys/young men who came to my city from the Sudan. They were what is called “The Lost Boys.” Part of the rituals of their lives in the Sudan were to have there front teeth pulled. They came to this country with nothing. Through the kindness of our community and several religious organizations they were given aid. Thanks to the local dental college they were also given dental implants. The reason for this is because they were “out of place” in the community having gaps in their teeth. This was at a cost of several thousand dollars that was waived. They got new teeth, a new lease on life and it never cost them one red cent. So, tell me about how we in this country only accept the rich…LOL

:heart:Blyss

 

[Jeffrey]

Not the illegals… they aren’t United States Americans.

And by the way, Mexicans are Americans, too.