Illegal aliens murder 12 Americans daily

[Ituyu]

If any individual is indigenous to the US, then they are US citizens. Those not born here are foreign-born. I think the semantical difference is slight.

If if you do believe that the history of previous centuries has a bearing on today’s issues, then what would that be? I do not see it.

They’re descendants of the First Americans. That will never change with time. How can the indigenous be foreigners since they’re native to this land? Yes, we have the power to decide who is here but we also have a responsibility to remember that they too are Human citizens. Our past is cluttered with injustice to others like the Irish, Catholics, Jews, Chinese and Japanese but never before has our border been so closed to “legal” immigration. Why? I’m afraid it’s the same sort of ethnocentric rationale.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

And, your comment is based on…?

Ituyu…look at the mess Mexico is in today, after all, is that not the reason why they are wanting to come over here? Doesn’t it say something that a big source of revenue for Mexico is the money sent back TO Mexico from its citizens here? What would be the reason all these illegals would want to come to this country if Mexico was such a wonderful place? It also stands to reason that if the Mexicans couldn’t make anything of their country the same would be said for what would have happened to this country if left in their hands…just on a much larger scale.

It also makes sense that those illegals…coming FROM Mexico TO this country have done NOTHING to make this the great country it is. Maybe Ituyu…you could provide any facts or statements to the contrary. I will be waiting and watching…

:heart:Blyss

 

[pnewton]

They’re descendants of the First Americans. That will never change with time. How can the indigenous be foreigners since they’re native to this land? .

How this is defined has bearing. I was referring to the US, not Central America and Mexico. The Spanish were not indigenous to the US. The Mayans were not. I have more indigenous roots to the US (not all the Americas) than most hispanics. Yet, I have no greater claim to this area than the second generation Eastern European immigrant (or Mexican immigrant)

I might agree with you, though, that ethnocentrism drives much of the anti-immigration movement.

 

[SeekerJen]

Karin;1824907:

No…I feel if you are not an American by birth or naturalization your children should hold the nationality of your birth and yes, that even means if you are a “green card” holder. It also doesn’t matter if you are from Mexico or Sweden or anywhere else

?Blyss

Guess I’d better go tell my dad he shoudn’t be an American, then. His father was a naturalized citizen (from Mexico), but his mom was a green-card holder. If he’s shouldn’t an American, I guess I shouldn’t be either. At least I don’t have to feel guilty about not voting in the midterm election; I shouldn’t be allowed a vote anyway, right? Funny, we’ve never been to Mexico, don’t speak Spanish, and our family’s been here legally since the 1930’s. But I guess we’re still a bunch of Mexican citizens, huh?

Unbelievable. Blyss, I’ve read some of your other posts where you’ve stated that your grandparents were immigrants (unless I’m totally mistaken and your ancestors have all been here forever). You do realize that according to your own “rule” for citizenship, you probably shouldn’t be considered an American either?

 

[Jeffrey]

I am indigenous to this land… I was born here.

They’re descendants of the First Americans. That will never change with time. How can the indigenous be foreigners since they’re native to this land? Yes, we have the power to decide who is here but we also have a responsibility to remember that they too are Human citizens. Our past is cluttered with injustice to others like the Irish, Catholics, Jews, Chinese and Japanese but never before has our border been so closed to “legal” immigration. Why? I’m afraid it’s the same sort of ethnocentric rationale.

 

[Karin]

I am indigenous to this land… I was born here.

hey Jeff…so are my kids

 

[urban-hermit]

I might agree with you, though, that ethnocentrism drives much of the anti-immigration movement.

Usually “ethnocentrism” is a polite way of saying “racism” and blaming racism as the driving force is simply missing the boat. Some people are racists. Most are not.

“Anti-immigration” is a misnomoer. The “anti-immigration” movement is not really opposed to immigration as it is normally defined. The whole issue is not about immigration - it’s been painted in a false way. Immigration means people want to adopt a new homeland. But that is not what is happening. Almost all of the Latin Americans I know, whether here legally or illegally, are people who come here simply to earn money, that is all. I can’t blame them and I personally like them and admire their work ethic. But let’s use words accurately - a true immigrant would want to become a citizen and contributor, not just earn what money they can for several years then go back to their country and buy a house or start a business or whatever with the money. Many continue to maintain a disdain for citizens of the United States and do not wish to become part of our country because they prefer their own country.

On the one hand I can understand that people want more money. On the other hand I think US resentment in response to this situation is understandable and really not the sin some have said it is. Hearing that some illegals are also murderers just adds injury to insult, resulting in - guess what - anger. We could all do better with charity, but to say that those who see a problem with the current situation are mostly driven by racism or hatred is myopic. Surely some people are racist, or maybe they have just had some run-in’s with criminal foreigners. But the main problem is something most middle-class social liberals can just not grasp or even see. The problem is corruption and poverty in Central America, not a lack of openness by the US. And the Americans who most live with the effects of the problem are low-wage Americans.

 

[Jeffrey]

Seeings how those protesters are claiming Mexico… I have reason to believe at some of them are illegals.

I don’t understand why they are claiming Mexico? If they love Mexico so much… go ( or stay ) there and make that country better.

Something that happened hundreds of years ago… shouldn’t matter now. I wasn’t alive back then niether were they… and they have no proof that any of my kin did anything to thier ancestors.

As far as sins… that is about what they ‘percieve’ happened… so don’t punish me as I didn’t do it.

I’m sure some ppl with with dark complexion ( as you put it ) get discriminated against… bet there’s plenty of other ppl that get discriminated against regardless of thier skin color.

Reading some of the posters accounts that they have experienced in neighborhoods that are predominatly pro-illegal… I wouldn’t want to live there.

What is incorrect on the signs? What to ***you see ***in those pictures that leads you to believe these people are illegal?

Maybe what happen hundreds of years ago left a continuous trail of these problems?

Maybe but you an Blyss both claim to see evidence of illegals, so tell us what you see that justifies your knowledge of illegals.

What sins would that be? Do you believe no dark complexion person in the SW to day is discriminated against? Do you watch the jokes on TV about that? Do you read the posters on this form giving personal accounts?
Again what do you and Blyss see that tells you these people were not born in the USA

 

[urban-hermit]

It also makes sense that those illegals…coming FROM Mexico TO this country have done NOTHING to make this the great country it is. Maybe Ituyu…you could provide any facts or statements to the contrary. I will be waiting and watching…

:heart:Blyss

I agree with many of your positions but I do want to take exception to this comment. Maybe my perspective is limited but cheap labor has definitely benefitted American business, and probably directly benefitted you at some point in the form of lower prices.

 

[urban-hermit]

hey Jeff…so are my kids

Yes, we know.

 

[Ituyu]

Ituyu…look at the mess Mexico is in today, after all, is that not the reason why they are wanting to come *over here? *

Doesn’t it say something that a big source of revenue for Mexico is the money sent back TO Mexico from its citizens here? What would be the reason all these illegals would want to come to this country if Mexico was such a wonderful place? It also stands to reason that if the Mexicans couldn’t make anything of their country the same would be said for what would have happened to this country if left in their hands*…just on a much larger scale.*

Will Blyss your inappropriate comments are stressing my ability to be charitable. There can be no comparing the two economies. Mexico’s economic situation is another obfuscation. It is not the issue here. The issue is these people within our borders and our labor shortage. What happens in Mexico today is another issue and what could have been is an unknown. We will never know what would have been. But who cares? What does that have to do with the market forces of Supply and Demand? What does it have to do with why we arbitrarily closed the door?

It also makes sense that those illegals…coming FROM Mexico TO this country have done NOTHING to make this the great country it is. Maybe Ituyu…you could provide any facts or statements to the contrary. I will be waiting and watching…

 

[Ituyu]

Seeings how those protesters are claiming Mexico… I have reason to believe at some

of them are illegals.

I don’t understand why they are claiming Mexico? If they love Mexico so much… go ( or stay ) there and make that country better.

Ok, where do you find that they are claiming Mexico?

 

[Jeffrey]

Pretty sure thats the top of a Mexican flag behind the lady in green.

If you seen any of the protests on TV… you would have noticed FAR MORE Mexican flags than American. Thats where I get that from.

Ok, where do you find that they are claiming Mexico?

 

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Ituyu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

Will Blyss your inappropriate comments are stressing my ability to be charitable. There can be no comparing the two economies. Mexico’s economic situation is another obfuscation. It is not the issue here. The issue is these people within our borders and our labor shortage. What happens in Mexico today is another issue and what could have been is an unknown. We will never know what would have been. But who cares? What does that have to do with the market forces of Supply and Demand? What does it have to do with why we arbitrarily closed the door?

No… the issue is the Mexican government and there complete failure on thier economy… otherwise they wouldn’t feel the need to try to come here illegally.

That is a highly charged and ethnocentric view. How can you ignore all the economic benefits that this group has brought to us? How can you ignore that Hispanics are in proportion among the most highly decorated group this nations military has known? How can you discount how these people worked our fields when we were at war and kept our men and our nation feed? How can you discount the fact that they are the single most important reason we are not in decline as the rest of the Western world? How can we not recognize that our standard of living is higher because of them? Whatever you may think, whatever guides your heart, know this, we are better off for their presence and I hate to think what kind of nation we would have without the contributions all our immigrants have made throughout our history. But, today it is they who are answering the call to fill the jobs we need done and always have only now in greater numbers. Blyss, what have you done to make this nation great? I for one cannot take any credit.

I myself see no real economical benefit for illegals being here… even IF there was… thier drain on the educational, law enforcement, and medical facilities would more than wipe that out.

As for them “answering the call” for jobs… they just happen to work for far less than an American citizen would.

 

[pnewton]

Usually “ethnocentrism” is a polite way of saying “racism” and blaming racism as the driving force is simply missing the boat.

Thank you. I do try to be polite.

I did not say it was the basis for all anti-immigration or even most, so I have missed no boat. I will keep to my opinion until I go a month without hearing the word “wetback.” As further evidence that many are truly ethnocentristic and not just racist (there is a difference), I experience quite often people who complain about immigrant speaking Spanish in their presence. It is hard for me to believe that such an attitude has no bearing on these people’s opinion about immigrants, both legal and illegal.

 

[Ituyu]

Usually “ethnocentrism” is a polite way of saying “racism” and blaming racism as the driving force is simply missing the boat. Some people are racists. Most are not

For the record, I did NOT call anyone here a racist. Ethnocentric and Racism are not equilvalents. Though I do believe the ethoncentric views are prevalent in groups such as
WND, FAIR, the John Birch Society and Racism is prevalent in groups such as neo nazi groups and the KKK.

“Anti-immigration” is a misnomoer. The “anti-immigration” movement is not really opposed to immigration as it is normally defined. The whole issue is not about immigration - it’s been painted in a false way. Immigration means people want to adopt a new homeland. But that is not what is happening. Almost all of the Latin Americans I know, whether here legally or illegally, are people who come here simply to earn money, that is all. I can’t blame them and I personally like them and admire their work ethic. But let’s use words accurately - a true immigrant would want to become a citizen and contributor, not just earn what money they can for several years then go back to their country and buy a house or start a business or whatever with the money. Many continue to maintain a disdain for citizens of the United States and do not wish to become part of our country because they prefer their own country.

 

[Ituyu]

No… the issue is the Mexican government and there complete failure on thier economy… otherwise they wouldn’t feel the need to try to come here illegally

Yes the employment situation is bad in Mexico and that is why they come but they couldn’t come and find jobs if we in turn did not need of their labor.

I myself see no real economical benefit for illegals being here… even IF there was… thier drain on the educational, law enforcement, and medical facilities would more than wipe that out.

As for them “answering the call” for jobs… they just happen to work for far less than an American citizen would.

 

[Jeffrey]

We don’t need thier labor… can find plenty from the citizens and the legal immigrants.

They couldn’t find jobs here if they weren’t willing to work for a lot less than the average American citizen needs. And it is because they just happen to work for less.

Sorry Ituyu… I do not believe that thier is a net “benefit”. If that were true we wouldn’t have hospitals and schools closing. They are a net loss on our system IMO.

I still do not see where I as a tax payer have “benefitted” from illegal labor.

Yes the employment situation is bad in Mexico and that is why they come but they couldn’t come and find jobs if we in turn did not need of their labor.

Sorry Jeffrey, but most economists would say that the economic benefits when considering gains and costs leaves us with a “net” benefit. So, your argument only looks at costs without looking at benefits. Why look at only half the equation?

Yes they are a source of cheap labor but mostly because we arbitrarily decided that they couldn’t be legal. And no Jeffrey, it’s not that they “just” happen to work for less it’s that they fill the void in the shortage of labor. Without them many jobs would go undone and with their labor comes their purchasing power that creates still more jobs further up the ladder. Those jobs add more to tax revenues. You don’t benefit from any services paid for by taxes Jeffrey? Do you buy food? Do you eat? Well then chances are that you’ve benfited from their labor somewhere down the line.

 

[Ituyu]

We don’t need thier labor… can find plenty from the citizens and the legal immigrants.

They couldn’t find jobs here if they weren’t willing to work for a lot less than the average American citizen needs. And it is because they just happen to work for less.

 

[Jeffrey]

The drain from the schools, law enforcement, and hospitals would have saved the taxpayers lots of money. I know I know… you don’t see that.

Those quite a few reports I read back me up as for the money spent on illegals. Money that is wasted.

I don’t believe that we would be short millions of laborers… not buying it.

Did you know:

In California, the $2.2 billion spent on the education of the children of illegal immigrants for one year could:

Pay the salaries of 41, 764 teachers, or 14 percent of California’s teachers.

Pay for California’s class sizes to remain capped at 20 students for a year, with $300 million to spare.

Buy books, computers, and other instructional equipment for 346, 689 classrooms, 79 percent of all classrooms in California.

Fully fund California 's free lunch program for almost two years.

That would save the California taxpayers quite a lot… and something we should strive for… boot the illegals.

Hardly Jeffrey. If we employed every single unemployed person we would still be short millions of employees. I know, I know…you don’t see that.

At any rate, you’re out ranked by the majority of economists who say otherwise.

The “illegal” pay taxes. Part of the benefit from their labor is that they create more jobs that create tax revenues that we otherwise would not have, Social Security has billions of dollars paid by the “illegal” because they had no way to collect that money so it stays with SS. Tax revenues go for a myriad of public works and services that benefit us all. Do your local, state or federal governments operate in your area? Do they use tax dollars? Then you’ve benefited even if you don’t see it.