Illegal immigrant rights

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Fremont said:
Our immigration laws are base on diversity of race, ethnicity and national origin. This is not a violation of any rights of anyone

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Except that it place “caps” on people by race.
You made a large number of references and all sound good to me.

Those postings can be interpreted in a variety of ways and none of them seem to give anyone the right to immigrate to the US, or anywhere else, illegally. None of those postings teach that the US rules for entry that requires identification (typically a passport) and permission (typically a visa) violate any human rights in any way.

Immigrate, yes, but within the laws, rules and regulations.
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There are a variety of ways for someone desiring to immigrate to the US to do this legally and within the laws, rules and regulations.

One example is that the person desiring to immigrate can obtain a tourist visa. He or she can then visit whatever city or town they wish. They can discuss employment with any company they wish.
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A “Poor” person from Mexico who would state that the purpose of his/her visit was to seek future employment in the United States would have their application denied.
If the services to be provided by the potential immigrant are as critical to the US economy as you keep insisting and if those services are not available to the employer from the local worker pool, upon agreement to hire the potential immigrant the employer can initiate a sponsorship of the potential immigrant…

No one’s rights have been violated, no teachings of the Church have been breached and the laws, rules and regulations have been honored.
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Fremont,.

Our current system could have supplied our economy with sufficient workers to meet market demands. We decided to arbitrarily allow fewer workers than were needed. This action not only violated their Rights but went contrary to the principle of the “Common Good” because both sides would have benefited through their “Legal” entry. Since there were far more jobs available than were allowed to be filled “legally”, Natural forces filled the void. They came for those jobs, as they always have, and our country is better off because they’re here.

I don’t know any way that the 12 million people already here could have settled here “LEGALLY” through the use of any available visas. I don’t know of any that would have qualified that many people. You seem to think that they could have. Specifically which visas do you say would have allowed them to be here “Legally” today.
 
Jeffrey said:
This is 100% true… I don’t understand why ppl can’t see that.
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Texas_Roofer said:
See post # 143
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Jeffrey said:
I see nothing racist about it… or are you just saying that ppl that don’t want ppl comming in illegally… are racist? Thats just ignorant in and of itsself.
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which part? see the post was "Illegal immigrants cause harm to and are a threat to the well being of the more vulnerable members of our community" ( post 197) but you switched to–" ppl that don’t want ppl comming in illegally… are racist?" Post # 205

Entering a country illegally does not make one “cause harm” or be a “threat” does it.
 
It most certainly does. As does the fact several hundred pounds if not thousands of pounds of drugs come over every year. Property damages and theft from the illegals etc.

Besides the fact its against Federal law.
Texas_Roofer said:
Entering a country illegally does not make one “cause harm” or be a “threat” does it.
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Jeffrey said:
It most certainly does. As does the fact several hundred pounds if not thousands of pounds of drugs come over every year. Property damages and theft from the illegals etc.

But the fact remains even if none of this were true, you still wouldn’t approve of “them”.
Besides the fact its against Federal law.
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Yes, but that law was manipulated to work against our own best interests as it was designed to permit qualified applicants into the country. Most of the 12 million already here should have been permitted entry. It was only because we decided to ignore our increased need for labor and arbitrarily kept our quotas unreasonabley low that created this situation. We also passed new laws that compounded the issue because those that may have left were essentially forced to stay. Our policies need to be changed to reflect the realities of our need for their labor and their contribution to our growth as a nation. If they hadn’t come we would have lost their contribution. They didn’t create their poverty, they didn’t create our economic problems that necessitates their labor and they had no say in the laws that arbitrarily makes them “illegal”. Fortunately, most of these people will make exactly the type of citizens we want and need. Meanwhile, they are law abiding, work, pay taxes, consume and grow as a population. All these things are good for us as a nation.
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What exactly do you mean by “them”? If you mean give amnesty to ppl who broke the law to get here… then you’d be right. Otherwise you’re dead wrong.

The illegals did not create thier poverty… it is up to THIER governments to fix it. Not ours… or us.

I’d rather our tax dollar help the ppl that are here legally.

ALL immigrants need to come over legal… or don’t come at all. Period.
Ituyu said:
But the fact remains even if none of this were true, you still wouldn’t approve of “them”.Yes, but that law was manipulated to work against our own best interests as it was designed to permit qualified applicants into the country. Most of the 12 million already here should have been permitted entry. It was only because we decided to ignore our increased need for labor and arbitrarily kept our quotas unreasonabley low that created this situation. We also passed new laws that compounded the issue because those that may have left were essentially forced to stay. Our policies need to be changed to reflect the realities of our need for their labor and their contribution to our growth as a nation. If they hadn’t come we would have lost their contribution. They didn’t create their poverty, they didn’t create our economic problems that necessitates their labor and they had no say in the laws that arbitrarily makes them “illegal”. Fortunately, most of these people will make exactly the type of citizens we want and need. Meanwhile, they are law abiding, work, pay taxes, consume and grow as a population. All these things are good for us as a nation.
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Jeffrey said:
I see nothing racist about it…

Then how can you make your next statement?
or are you just saying that ppl that don’t want ppl comming in illegally… are racist?
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Typical type of argument. Assert a premise on something not said and then base your argument on that.
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Thread is wandering off-topic and into sniping at each other instead of discussing things. Can’t you guys disagree without it degenerating into this?

Walt
 
Jeffrey said:
What exactly do you mean by “them”? If you mean give amnesty to ppl who broke the law to get here… then you’d be right. Otherwise you’re dead wrong.
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Where is this thinking consistent with:
  1. Wherefore, on this occasion, We publicly approve and commend every undertaking, founded on the principles of human solidarity and Christian charity, which aims at making migration of persons from one country to another less painful.
We can undo the harm with a simple stroke of a pen.
The illegals did not create thier poverty… it is up to THIER governments to fix it. Not ours… or us.
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Uh huh, where do you find that in Catholic Teaching?
I’d rather our tax dollar help the ppl that are here legally.
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But, you all too conveniently forget that we’re spending the tax dollars of “illegals” on “legals” too. And, the"illegal" under utilize services. They’re not taking anything that they haven’t contributed to.
ALL immigrants need to come over legal… or don’t come at all. Period.
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Again that is not consistent with the teachings of Christ. First of all the Church recognizes that All persons have “inviolable” Rights. Immigrants, even “illegal” immigrants, have those Rights and Obligations that come from God. To the extent that our laws violate those Rights, they are unjust. And, Unjust laws are no laws at all. Just like a person has a Right to defend themselves against a physical attack, these people have a Right to defend themselves against an “economic” attack. They come here to work, to survive and to support their families just as God expects of them.
 
Ituyu said:
Where is this thinking consistent with:
  1. Wherefore, on this occasion, We publicly approve and commend every undertaking, founded on the principles of human solidarity and Christian charity, which aims at making migration of persons from one country to another less painful.
We can undo the harm with a simple stroke of a pen.

Uh huh, where do you find that in Catholic Teaching?

But, you all too conveniently forget that we’re spending the tax dollars of “illegals” on “legals” too. And, the"illegal" under utilize services. They’re not taking anything that they haven’t contributed to.
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They take far more than they give… if that weren’t the case…we wouldn’t have hospitals closing. They are not US citizens… they are criminals who broke the law to get here. Deport them.
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Ituyu:
Again that is not consistent with the teachings of Christ. First of all the Church recognizes that All persons have “inviolable” Rights. Immigrants, even “illegal” immigrants, have those Rights and Obligations that come from God. To the extent that our laws violate those Rights, they are unjust. And, Unjust laws are no laws at all. Just like a person has a Right to defend themselves against a physical attack, these people have a Right to defend themselves against an “economic” attack. They come here to work, to survive and to support their families just as God expects of them.
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No… they have the right to fix thier countries… not break our laws to get here. Our laws are just and fair… thier home countries laws are not.
 
Jeffery
This thread has been in error from the inception, because it has self evident intents which the OP spends his time denying. People have rights, all people, some rights are granted by God, other by varies forms of Natural Law and some rights* via contractual agreements. The US Constitution is a contractual right. If the declaration independence is understand it both explains the natural rights are being upheld and the contractual rights to England are being dissolved. AND it the new (US) government violates these rights as England has done the people will again arise for the same purpose. So in the purest form it is a legal only agreement.

The OP then attempts to claim the purpose of this thread is to deny the Catholic Church has Jurisdiction over the U.S. Government. This claim is quite silly. Unfortunately the OP continually attempts to debate in to this poor condition of irrelevance.

The thread is really about the emotions many have about Mexican citizen walk across our borders to look for work and better living conditions.
 
Jeffrey said:
They take far more than they give… if that weren’t the case…we wouldn’t have hospitals closing. They are not US citizens… they are criminals who broke the law to get here. Deport them.
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There is ample professional and academic evidence which concludes quite the opposite. They are not “criminal” but Persons who deserve to be treated with respect and dignity because according to Church Teaching they are doing as God expects of them to work and support themselves and their dependents. Crossing our border, even by our standards is a regulatory violation which is punishable by deportation not jail for the first offense It’s not a felony and not even a misdemeanor but an infraction…

Improper Entry by alien-US Code. Sec. 1325
" Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a** civil**
penalty of -
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.

Under the law they are not CRIMINALS under Criminal Law. They are guilty of a Civil offense. People who are guilty of traffic violations are likewise guilty of Civil Offenses. I’ve had a couple of those in my life and I am not a criminal. I can venture to say that you know many people who are guilty of the same sorts of violations, maybe even you, but they aren’t criminals either. So, you can keep repeating your mantra but that won’t mean anything to those who know the truth.
No… they have the right to fix thier countries… not break our laws to get here. Our laws are just and fair… thier home countries laws are not.
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Stop dodging the issue. This thread is about Church Teaching on the topic of Human Rights. If you can’t reconcile you beliefs with Church Teaching please just admit it. Otherwise, answer the question pertaining to your rationale as to how you reconcile your beliefs with Church Teaching. Unless Pope John XXIII is wrong in his teachings on what basis does one support the extreme measures that would harm the less fortunate as well as our economic well being?

Have a wonderful Thanksgiving! I should be back on Friday.
 
There is more than enough evidence that supports the fact the the criminals who came here illegally are a drain on our hospitals and education systems.

It is breaking a federal law. Since 1929, illegal entry into the United States has been a federal crime, a misdemeanor.

Altho… it should be a felony.

I have violated no Church Teaching.

I think we should just agree to disagree… and let it go at that… you won’t change my mind… I won’t change your mind.
 
Stop dodging the issue and twisting Church Teaching… they are criminals… illegal immigrants should be deported.

This post says it best:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=1658099&postcount=152
Ituyu said:
There is ample professional and academic evidence which concludes quite the opposite. They are not “criminal” but Persons who deserve to be treated with respect and dignity because according to Church Teaching they are doing as God expects of them to work and support themselves and their dependents. Crossing our border, even by our standards is a regulatory violation which is punishable by deportation not jail for the first offense It’s not a felony and not even a misdemeanor but an infraction…

Improper Entry by alien-US Code. Sec. 1325
" Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a** civil**
penalty of -
(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or
(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.

Under the law they are not CRIMINALS under Criminal Law. They are guilty of a Civil offense. People who are guilty of traffic violations are likewise guilty of Civil Offenses. I’ve had a couple of those in my life and I am not a criminal. I can venture to say that you know many people who are guilty of the same sorts of violations, maybe even you, but they aren’t criminals either. So, you can keep repeating your mantra but that won’t mean anything to those who know the truth.
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