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HollyMustardSee
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Just remember…Charity begins at HOME
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Stylites
Guest
A corporation is not there to save souls. Price-Waterhouse is not a church. Businessmen are not priests, although they, too, do a lot of good for society and all it’s members, legal or otherwise. The real Church states that immigration is morally-neutral, hence your concern for others’ souls is touching if sincere but misdirected.So economic benefits are more important than the needs of souls?
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Stylites
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“if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not the Gentiles do likewise?”Just remember…Charity begins at HOME
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Geremia
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It almost sounds like you are against private property, including land. The Church has always considered private ownership just.A fence divides. God laughs whenever two brothers draw a string across the land and proclaim: “This side is mine, that side is yours.” God laughs because He owns everything, and there’s nothing we own, certainly nothing we take with us to judgment except our past actions.
I fully agree with you here, that legal immigration should be easier. The U.S. could use more citizens to replace the > 50 million lost to abortion.Our national fence needs a big gate through which people who seek honest work may come through with dignity and safety.
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Geremia
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I think you misinterpreted me, and might have done the same with you.A corporation is not there to save souls. Price-Waterhouse is not a church. Businessmen are not priests, although they, too, do a lot of good for society and all it’s members, legal or otherwise.
Where does the Church state this? And how is my concern misdirected?The real Church states that immigration is morally-neutral, hence your concern for others’ souls is touching if sincere but misdirected.
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pnewton
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Is that Hezekiah 5:11?Just remember…Charity begins at HOME
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Stylites
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Then maybe the mortal sin belongs to the politicians and their mean-spirited and self-serving constituents who continue to make legal immigration more and more difficult. Politicians such as Nancy Pelosi, Barak Obama, and Barney Frank cruelly confer illegal status upon these poor people by their political inaction and cowardice, and sadly someone comes along and tries to castigate these immigrants wanting to provide for their families as having mortal sin.I fully agree with you here, that legal immigration should be easier.
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Viki63
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I have to disagree with this. I married an undocumented immigrant, and don’t think that either he or I “harbor criminal tendencies,” beyond being subject to original sin like everyone else. He is probably the only person to have crossed the border illegally in a wheelchair, by the way, and I absolutely believe he was led to do so by the Spirit of God, under the protection of his guardian angel. He would be dead now if he hadn’t done so.I If harboring criminal tendencies—as one does when in a country illegally—is harmful to the soul, regardless whether it leads to a venial or mortal sin, then is it not charitable to deport these people deserve so they are no longer breaking the law?
I spent last evening with a young woman, 8 months pregnant, whose husband was recently deported. She’s now living in homeless shelters until she gives birth, without access to food, money, transportation, except what our crisis pregnancy center can scrape up to help out. No criminal tendencies there that I can see, just a desire to give her child a decent life.
I totally agree with JReducation’s post # 45, which explains the church’s stand on deportation, that it’s against human dignity.
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mlund
Guest
Illegal Immigration is sinful outside of fleeing an immediate threat to life and limb for yourself or your family. Even then, it does not excuse an unnecessarily extended stay or failure to try and abide the laws or get right with the laws of the nation your trespass against.
Most instances of illegal immigration involve willful and conscious acts of sin, some of them mortal. Identity theft to receive salary or public benefits, for example, violates the 8th Commandment as taught by the Catechism. Using the services of human smugglers to enter the United States makes one materially complicit with their other activities like drug smuggling, gun-running, kidnapping, and murder. Obtaining public services like education or welfare while illegally trespassing in a nation is theft. Driving without a license or insurance is clearly violating the Church’s teachings on submission to lawful authority.
That’s not even addressing the issue of neglecting your moral obligation to exercise the franchise of voting in your native country to enact reform. Mexico has effectively exported 20% of its eligible voters to the United States who are dissatisfied with the Status Quo in Mexico. This allows the cartels more power in Mexico and stifles reform that could stop political corruption. That’s atrocious.
To make matters even worse, we see so-called “Catholic” political advocacy groups putting forth hateful and discriminatory rhetoric and political goals. There is a significant movement towards illicit privilege revolving around racial, ethnic, and nationality lines. They support a system that treats Mexicans that wish to or have illicitly immigrated one way (to a lesser extent, other Hispanics) and leaves those aspiring immigrants from other nations (many in much worse shape than Mexico) out in the cold holding the bag for not employing illicit means. This is completely impermissible under the teachings of the Church.
The current status-quo is this:
Give Asylum and Refuge to those who qualify. Show leniency for adults who were brought over as children and not of their own free will. Enforce the law strictly upon all other trespassers until they return home and petition to immigrate lawfully.
To do otherwise is not to appeal to the true virtue of Compassion as taught to us by the Church, but to confuse it with Sentimentality like Pope Benedict warned us against doing in Caritas in Vertitate. Nobody has greater right to get into the United States just because they happen to be born in Mexico instead of Rwanda.
We need lawful, orderly, and even-handed immigration policy. That doesn’t mean blanket amnesty. That certainly doesn’t mean Hispanics/Mexicans/Catholics first and the rest get the pieces.
Most instances of illegal immigration involve willful and conscious acts of sin, some of them mortal. Identity theft to receive salary or public benefits, for example, violates the 8th Commandment as taught by the Catechism. Using the services of human smugglers to enter the United States makes one materially complicit with their other activities like drug smuggling, gun-running, kidnapping, and murder. Obtaining public services like education or welfare while illegally trespassing in a nation is theft. Driving without a license or insurance is clearly violating the Church’s teachings on submission to lawful authority.
That’s not even addressing the issue of neglecting your moral obligation to exercise the franchise of voting in your native country to enact reform. Mexico has effectively exported 20% of its eligible voters to the United States who are dissatisfied with the Status Quo in Mexico. This allows the cartels more power in Mexico and stifles reform that could stop political corruption. That’s atrocious.
To make matters even worse, we see so-called “Catholic” political advocacy groups putting forth hateful and discriminatory rhetoric and political goals. There is a significant movement towards illicit privilege revolving around racial, ethnic, and nationality lines. They support a system that treats Mexicans that wish to or have illicitly immigrated one way (to a lesser extent, other Hispanics) and leaves those aspiring immigrants from other nations (many in much worse shape than Mexico) out in the cold holding the bag for not employing illicit means. This is completely impermissible under the teachings of the Church.
The current status-quo is this:
- Mexicans get dibs on illegal immigration.
- Advocates for Mexican illegal immigrants use racist/nationalist rhetoric to demand immigration laws not be enforced against them.
- Mexicans in Mexico put the boots to anyone else in Latin America trying to get across the U.S. border so they can exclusively exploit the smuggling and remittances.
- Other Hispanics need to pay thousands of dollars to cartels to get them across Mexico and into the U.S. - where they are further kidnapped, raped, and robbed by the cartels.
- People being violently and hopeless oppressed in China, Africa, Southeast Asia have to wait in line and have Mexicans cut in front of them.
- People who play by the rules, follow the law, and show respect to their host nation receive a slap in the face from the illegal immigration industry and foot the bill.
Give Asylum and Refuge to those who qualify. Show leniency for adults who were brought over as children and not of their own free will. Enforce the law strictly upon all other trespassers until they return home and petition to immigrate lawfully.
To do otherwise is not to appeal to the true virtue of Compassion as taught to us by the Church, but to confuse it with Sentimentality like Pope Benedict warned us against doing in Caritas in Vertitate. Nobody has greater right to get into the United States just because they happen to be born in Mexico instead of Rwanda.
We need lawful, orderly, and even-handed immigration policy. That doesn’t mean blanket amnesty. That certainly doesn’t mean Hispanics/Mexicans/Catholics first and the rest get the pieces.
- Marty Lund
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Stylites
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Be sure to read JReducation’s post #45 before issuing any further proclamations of sin.Illegal Immigration is sinful . . .
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Stylites
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A poor person once used public services, and a caring Christian accused her of theft for accepting charity freely given.
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mlund
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I certainly have read Post #45. I completely disagree with the thinly-stretched conclusions you and others have drawn from the source material. Perhaps you should attempt to debate the points I have made on a factual basis before issuing any further comments to my post?Be sure to read JReducation’s post #45 before issuing any further proclamations of sin.
Not all acts of illegal immigration are sinful. Those fleeing for their lives have right to refugee or asylum. Ergo, the act itself is not, per se, sinful. Most acts of illegal immigration do involve sin. The status quo of illegal immigration into the United States is itself hip-deep in terrible sins.
Simply bypassing lawful means to step over others to increase the prosperity for yourself and your immediate family in a non-life-threatening situation is not licit. You can not excuse all lawless act simply by saying “we are poor” or “I did it so my children could have a better life.” Many poor Germans signed onto the National Socialist platform in Germany as a way out of poverty and despair, and look how that turned out. Certainly, we must always look askance when people seek to permit continuous situations that discriminate and exploit based on race, ethnicity, creed, or nation of origin simply for the benefit of their own family / ethnicity / nation of origin / race.
Even-handed and orderly immigration is something to be held up as a moral good, not soiled by treating it interchangeably with exploitative human smuggling and criminal trespassing.
Oh, as a good general rule: Don’t confuse Government Entitlements paid for by confiscation with Christian Charity freely given.A poor person once used public services, and a caring Christian accused her of theft for accepting charity freely given.
- Marty Lund
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Stylites
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Illegal immigration in itself is morally-neutral. Re-read JReducation’s post. The fact that Caesar doesn’t treat immigration offences seriously precludes the branding of “serious” in the context of moral culpability, even if Caesar had the power from God to assign sins to civil actions which he does not have. And the original issue was the supposed moral culpability of immigrating without Caesar’s most holy permission, not Rwandans or Mexicans or Swedes.
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Stylites
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In this continuing anti-Gospel message of “what-part-of-ILLEGAL-don’t-you-understand” your mentioning of Nazi Germany brings to mind that all the horrors of the Nazis were all perfectly legal.Many poor Germans signed onto the National Socialist platform in Germany as a way out of poverty and despair, and look how that turned out.
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M
mlund
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As I have said, already, not all instances of illegal immigration are sinful. Not all instances of violence are morally evil. Doing either in self-defense is morally permissible, even if the reality of the necessity is regretful.Illegal immigration in itself is morally-neutral.
I’ve already read the post. Instructing me to re-read it like I’m in some way deficient is a violation of this Forum’s standing rules on posting charitably. Please cease doing it and make logical and valid arguments.Re-read JReducation’s post.
That’s not true. Just because corrupt politicians turn a blind eye to the binding law of the land does not mean that those offenses aren’t “serious” in terms of one’s obligation to obey those laws. Just look at Mexico’s handling of drug trafficking!The fact that Caesar doesn’t treat immigration offences seriously precludes the branding of “serious” in the context of moral culpability,
Moreover, I live in Arizona, where the law of the land does finally step up and fill the gap in law-enforcement left by corrupt politicians and bureaucrats.
No, but Jesus has instructed us to submit to lawful authority on matters of lawful governance. Moreover the Church has made it clear that there are legitimate responsibilities of governments that we must respect as citizens. Without clear, enforced borders the ability to assert jurisdiction and order for the benefit of all is compromised to the point of anarchy. Look at the widespread misery and rule-by-cartel going on across the U.S.-Mexico border and see what these policies of exploitation and not-so-benign neglect have wrought. A lack of ability to enforce its borders causes a nation to fail in its moral obligation to defend its people and maintain order. Enforcing our national border is not something that my bishop has judged to be outside the morally licit authority of our nation or our state.even if Caesar had the power from God to assign sins to civil actions which he does not have.
Yes, and rampant illicit immigration without border enforcement, orderly process, and even-handedness (which are the lawful and moral responsibilities of a government) across racial, religious, ethnic, and national lines does not promote the greater good. What we have here is a system dominated by crime and political corruption that distributes narrow benefits to a preferred racial/national/ethnic class of criminal at the expense of others. This can not be permitted to stand, no matter how many Mexican Nationals it might benefit in the short term.And the original issue was the supposed moral culpability of immigrating without Caesar’s most holy permission, not Rwandans or Mexicans or Swedes.
- Marty Lund
Has he bothered to attempt to correct this illegal status?I have to disagree with this. I married an undocumented immigrant, and don’t think that either he or I “harbor criminal tendencies,” beyond being subject to original sin like everyone else. He is probably the only person to have crossed the border illegally in a wheelchair, by the way, and I absolutely believe he was led to do so by the Spirit of God, under the protection of his guardian angel. He would be dead now if he hadn’t done so.
If not, then he is a criminal.
There are laws governing how to immigrate into this country.
They should be followed. Else the illegal alien is just another criminal and subject to the full extent of the law.
There is a right way and a wrong way to do things.
Violating the law is the wrong way.
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mlund
Guest
Well, that is a good point. If you married a citizen you are entitled to a green card unless you’ve got something truly severe on your record. Also, even if you aren’t married, if you are fleeing for your life you still have an obligation to petition for asylum or refuge after the fact.Has he bothered to attempt to correct this illegal status?
If not, then he is a criminal.
All other things being equal, yes. Sometimes there are laws that are truly reprehensible and have nothing to do with the licit exercise of governing authority given to nations. Enforcement of international borders, however, is one of the moral responsibilities of a government. So long as the law does not illicitly discriminate it should be followed.There is a right way and a wrong way to do things.
Violating the law is the wrong way.
One of the big problems is the illegal immigration status quo is lawless and it is illicitly discriminatory - especially against those in the greatest need. The current status quo essentially hangs a sign that says, “Welcome all Mexicans - smugglers, farmers, murderers, and otherwise. Welcome all Ecuadorans and Guatemalans who paid through the nose to subsidize the drug-cartels for passage but managed to escape kidnapping once they got here. The rest of you chumps from South America, Asia, and Africa as well as you U.S. tax-payers can all go die in a ditch for all we care. Thanks!”
- Marty Lund
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GratefulFred
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Personally, I think for MOST illegals, the ‘crime’ is akin to a speeding ticket morally. There are degrees of actual harm inflicted on others. With most illegals, the harm is zero or very small.Has he bothered to attempt to correct this illegal status?
If not, then he is a criminal.
There are laws governing how to immigrate into this country.
They should be followed. Else the illegal alien is just another criminal and subject to the full extent of the law.
There is a right way and a wrong way to do things.
Violating the law is the wrong way.
How are we harmed by illegals coming to harvest our farm fields to the extent that they must face the full extent of the law?
Most of us can hardly get through the day without violating some law because we have so many of them. Should OUR transgressions be subjected to the full extent of the law? Most judges do not punish to the full extent of the law. Thank God.
I want better control of immigration. But I also want empathy and compassion for those just trying to take of themselves and families.
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mlund
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There is indirect harm to be considered as well. Buying something small on the black market doesn’t seem like it causes any harm. However, the black market as a whole provides income for organized crime that promotes murder, prostitution, rape, drug dealing, and all manner of other horrors.Personally, I think for MOST illegals, the ‘crime’ is akin to a speeding ticket morally. There are degrees of actual harm inflicted on others. With most illegals, the harm is zero or very small.
Likewise, illegal immigration as a whole has promoted the interests of organized crime and lead to rampant expansion of drug-smuggling, murder, prostitution, rape, kidnapping, and other horrors. It has also placed an undue burden on the state infrastructures and tax-payers of places like California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. Furthermore it has compromised the ability of disease control efforts and caused massive environmental damage along the border.
No one individual illegal immigrant did all this damage. Collectively their efforts have created all this destruction and misery. Continuing to permit this status quo is to permit this destruction and misery to continue. Continuing to pile onto the problem to “get mine” is not so easily dismissed as a speeding ticket.
It is more akin to why you don’t dump your garbage in a river. Just you doing it is almost unnoticeable . You can try to claim “no harm, no foul,” but when a mass of people do what you got away with the effects are devastating.
I’m not talking about exacting retribution by means of the law or laying down a punishment. I’m talking about putting people back under the legal jurisdiction to which they belong so that they can petition to immigrate lawfully, back in line with all the people they stepped over. That’s simply putting someone back into compliance. That’s about as lenient as you can be with such an offense without outright rewarding law-breaking and abdicating the responsibility of enforcing the borders.How are we harmed by illegals coming to harvest our farm fields to the extent that they must face the full extent of the law?
Most of us can hardly get through the day without violating some law because we have so many of them. Should OUR transgressions be subjected to the full extent of the law? Most judges do not punish to the full extent of the law. Thank God.
I want better control of immigration. But I also want empathy and compassion for those just trying to take of themselves and families.
- Marty Lund
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pnewton
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There are weak arguments on both sides of the immigration. This has always been one of the weaker ones against immigration. I have seen it often, backed by some anecdotal evidence of some horrendous crime committed by an illegal evidence. What I have never seen is any evidence that illegal immigrants contribute to the violent crime rate more than legal immigrants, or for that matter, any other demographic. It is cheap fear-monger used by propagandists throughout history to demonize a group of undesireables.Likewise, illegal immigration as a whole has promoted the interests of organized crime and lead to rampant expansion of drug-smuggling, murder, prostitution, rape, kidnapping, and other horrors.
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