Illegal Immigration and Morality

[MOTHBALL83]

Q. Why do amnesty supporters want to give amnesty to illegal immigrants?

A. Because giving 11 or 12 million new Democrats the right to vote would ensure that the Democrat Party/ Socialists/labor unions would gain solid control of the United States for at least the next three generations. Authentic Catholics would be persona non grata, e.g., it would be a hate crime or worse for a priest in his pulpit to mention homosexuality in a negative light, or to bring up the Church’s concept of subsidiarity. Abortion would become the common form of birth control, paid for by taxes, of course. Socialized health care, including Peoples’ Health Panels, would have total power, including life or death. A Socialist paradise.

Do you really believe that the few thousand people who would grant amnesty on purely humanitarian or other valid grounds would be able to control the resulting Socialist juggernaut?

No I don’t…I agree that it would lead to the destruction of this country. Europe would fall as well as Israel.

 

[nightranger]

On an individual level, yes, we as humans and most importantly, as christians should always help those in need, inspite of their status. But that is not the government’s job. The government’s job is to do what is ultimately best for the people living within its jurisdiction, not to be a global charity.

-Chris

I agree completely

 

[cmforte]

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmforte

On an individual level, yes, we as humans and most importantly, as christians should always help those in need, inspite of their status. But that is not the government’s job. The government’s job is to do what is ultimately best for the people living within its jurisdiction, not to be a global charity.

-Chris

I agree completely .

Thank you, nightranger. And that is where I really diverge from the Bishops. It seems like they want to put all the responsiblity of helping the poor, at home and abroad, into the hands of the government, and away from us as individual christians and as a Church. The first century christians never depended on the government (for obvious reasons), they helped each other. We should follow their example.

-Chris

 

[nightranger]

When socialism replaces a free market economy, (open borders, govt. controlled commerce), that country will quickly degrade into communism. That’s the goal of every hedonistic, barbaric and anti Christian society on the planet.

You don’t have to believe me, just read what John Paul II had to say about it.

 

[nightranger]

-Chris

Perhaps we are saying the same thing my friend, I’m not sure. But as for me, I have NO inhibitions about speaking against the U.S Bishops on non-doctrinal matters. Their stance on U.S. immigration policy is DEAD WRONG.

 

[cmforte]

Perhaps we are saying the same thing my friend, I’m not sure. But as for me, I have NO inhibitions about speaking against the U.S Bishops on non-doctrinal matters. Their stance on U.S. immigration policy is DEAD WRONG.

We are. And…we are!

-Chris

 

[pnewton]

I didn’t agree with Reagan. Whereas Democrats want more voters, Republicans want more cheap labor.

No, but The Church in the US does need new members, and most of them are coming from the immigrant population, not from native Americans.

-Chris

Note that you have now given two other reasons, making three. The only thing they all have in common is cynicism, seeing the worst in others. I think this is dangerous enough and attitude when directed at politicians, I think such cynicism toward the Catholic bishops reveals more about the cynic than it does any bishop. The American Catholic Church has many members that dissent from their bishops on this topic, or that, but to attribute to them such base motives, is disturbing.

 

[nightranger]

One clear cut example of this is the behavior of the spoiled- brat neo-socialist children in the U.K. last week.
If you don’t get what you want; riot, loot, kill and destroy at will. All as a neutered, pacifist police force looks on helplessly.

 

[cmforte]

One clear cut example of this is the behavior of the spoiled- brat neo-socialist children in the U.K. last week.
If you don’t get what you want; riot, loot, kill and destroy at will. All as a neutered, pacifist police force looks on helplessly.

My thoughts on that exactly!!

-Chris

 

[nightranger]

Note that you have now given two other reasons, making three. The only thing they all have in common is cynicism, seeing the worst in others. I think this is dangerous enough and attitude when directed at politicians, I think such cynicism toward the Catholic bishops reveals more about the cynic than it does any bishop. The American Catholic Church has many members that dissent from their bishops on this topic, or that, but to attribute to them such base motives, is disturbing.

. It’s not cynical at all. Find me a U.S. Bishop that will dissent publicly from their collective stance on immigration. I’m betting you can’t

 

[cmforte]

Note that you have now given two other reasons, making three. The only thing they all have in common is cynicism, seeing the worst in others. I think this is dangerous enough and attitude when directed at politicians, I think such cynicism toward the Catholic bishops reveals more about the cynic than it does any bishop. The American Catholic Church has many members that dissent from their bishops on this topic, or that, but to attribute to them such base motives, is disturbing.

I simply can not find any other logical conclusion or motive to their words and actions. And as we all know, the Bishops aren’t always right. There are reasons why some people might be “cynical” about them. But don’t take that as an attack on the Catholic faith itself, I oppose the Bishops on some issues, but I grudingly (at times) accept the authority and legitimacy of the episcopacy.

-Chris

 

[cmforte]

It’s not cynical at all. Find me a U.S. Bishop that will dissent publicly from their collective stance on immigration. I’m betting you can’t

I know of at least one priest that does, of course he doesn’t say it publicly and I won’t divulge his name.

-Chris

 

[pnewton]

. It’s not cynical at all. Find me a U.S. Bishop that will dissent publicly from their collective stance on immigration. I’m betting you can’t

I have asked the same thing, and never found one. I would hope that this, along with a little humility, might give Catholics some pause as to whether they might be missing some moral teaching in their political fervor. The bishops not only have a teaching authority, they also have a teaching charism, a Holy Sacrament that allows the Holy Spirit to speak through them. Does it not occur to anyone here that they might be (as in Acts) be “kicking against the goads” on this issue?

 

[cmforte]

I have asked the same thing, and never found one. I would hope that this, along with a little humility, might give Catholics some pause as to whether they might be missing some moral teaching in their political fervor. The bishops not only have a teaching authority, they also have a teaching charism, a Holy Sacrament that allows the Holy Spirit to speak through them. Does it not occur to anyone here that they might be (as in Acts) be “kicking against the goads” on this issue?

You’re joking right? So we should never question the Bishops? Its a line of thought like that that exasberated the sex scandal. Again: the Bishops are not always right. They are vulnerable to making mistakes just as any other fallen human, irreguardless of the Holy Spirit (since we little lay people have it too, but can still sin). And if I remember correctly, opposing the Bishops on this *political *matter is not a sin as long as your motives are just.

-Chris

 

[cmforte]

Quote:
I have asked the same thing, and never found one. I would hope that this, along with a little humility, might give Catholics some pause as to whether they might be missing some moral teaching in their political fervor. The bishops not only have a teaching authority, they also have a teaching charism, a Holy Sacrament that allows the Holy Spirit to speak through them. Does it not occur to anyone here that they might be (as in Acts) be “kicking against the goads” on this issue?

You’re joking right? So we should never question the Bishops? Its a line of thought like that that exasberated the sex scandal. Again: the Bishops are not always right. They are vulnerable to making mistakes just as any other fallen human, irreguardless of the Holy Spirit (since we little lay people have it too, but can still sin). And if I remember correctly, opposing the Bishops on this political matter is not a sin as long as your motives are just.

-Chris

And if I said it once, I’ve said it a thousand times: as individual christians and as a Church we should help all those in need reguardless of their legal status. But the government’s job is to do what is in the best interest for the people as a whole who live within its jurisdiction, and it is not in the best interest of Americans to allow perpetual and unrestricted, un-controlled immigration, or to encourage more illegal immigration by granting current illegals amnesty. That’s all. I don’t see where one should disagree there?

_chris

 

[MOTHBALL83]

I have asked the same thing, and never found one. I would hope that this, along with a little humility, might give Catholics some pause as to whether they might be missing some moral teaching in their political fervor. The bishops not only have a teaching authority, they also have a teaching charism, a Holy Sacrament that allows the Holy Spirit to speak through them. Does it not occur to anyone here that they might be (as in Acts) be “kicking against the goads” on this issue?

As mentioned earlier, Pope John Paul II said, “Illegal Immigration should be prevented.”

 

[KSU]

Thanks for the rephrase, pnewton. You said, "I have never heard any Democrat give the reason that you gave [Amnesty = millions of Democrat votes]. Have you ever heard a Democrat say he supported amnesty for illegal immigrants in order to gain more voters? If not, then why would you make such a statement? "

I made the statement because everyone in the country has heard the Democrats, loud and clear.

Harry Reid (D-NV), Dick Durbin (D-IL), and Robert Menendez (D-NJ) reintroduced the Dream Act, which would grant illegal aliens citizenship. This at a time when Americans are overwhelmingly opposed to giving illegals the vote. The timing of the reintroduction would grant voting rights to millions of illegals, thus assuring Obama’s re-election and creating an unbeatable voting block for Democratic administrations for generations.

In April, 2010, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid told a Las Vegas audience: “We are going to pass comprehensive immigration reform” this year, meaning amnesty for illegal aliens, and now, immediate qualification for ObamaCare. That was just the latest in a series of pledges from Democratic leaders in Congress, as well as from President Obama.

I’m surprised you didn’t hear it, pnewton.

Here, my Doubting Thomas friend is something you should read if you are seriously searching for the truth about amnesty: americanrationale.com/Amnesty.html

 

[pnewton]

As mentioned earlier, Pope John Paul II said, “Illegal Immigration should be prevented.”

Yes, and I encouraged everyone to read the whole document out of which that was proof-texted. (hint: the very next word in that sentence is “but”) We can read the Church’s teaching for ammo, or for instruction.

 

[pnewton]

Here, my Doubting Thomas friend is something you should read if you are seriously searching for the truth about amnesty: americanrationale.com/Amnesty.html

Why would I read a blog over the Church? Here is the “About us” from your link.

americanrationale.com/AboutUs.html

" the Democratic party has become something one might
find in a Kaligula nightmare."

I never read anything without reference. Nowhere can I find any credentials for Kab Laughridge, the writer of this blog. He has no more authority to comment on the motives of others than anyone else here does.

 

[cmforte]

**Ender: **

E-Verify is only mandated for employers. A Church has no obligation to run an E-Verify check on all of its parishioners. I didn’t see any article that would prohibit ministering to anyone even if the person was known to be an illegal. A Church may not hire illegals but there is nothing prohibiting her from ministering to them.

So true!! I am a Hospitality Minister at my parish. I certainly don’t check someone’s ID or “papers” at the door!!

-Chris