Illegal Immigration and Morality

[pnewton]

It is immoral to support illegal immigration.

Is this something that the Catholic Church has ever said? I am not contradicting this opinion, just wondering if it can be specifically backed up. In any case, supporting illegal immigrants is not immoral. In fact, there are times when not helping some one in need can cause Jesus to tell us to depart from Him in the final judgement.

I understand that not all here who help the poor and extend friendship to the stranger do this as a part of their Christianity that are not illegal immigrants, or immigrants at all. I think it equally important to understand that there are many who God lays it on them to extend charity to these people.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

Is this something that the Catholic Church has ever said? I am not contradicting this opinion, just wondering if it can be specifically backed up. In any case, supporting illegal immigrants is not immoral. In fact, there are times when not helping some one in need can cause Jesus to tell us to depart from Him in the final judgement.

I understand that not all here who help the poor and extend friendship to the stranger do this as a part of their Christianity that are not illegal immigrants, or immigrants at all. I think it equally important to understand that there are many who God lays it on them to extend charity to these people.

Ezek. 22:29,31. “The people of the land have practiced oppression and committed robbery, and ***they have wronged the poor and needy ***and have oppressed the sojourner without justice…. Thus I have poured out My indignation on them; I have consumed them with the fire of My wrath; their way I have brought upon their heads,” declares the Lord GOD.

Jer. 7:5-7. “For, if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, and the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever.”

Lev. 19:19ff. Now when you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very corners of your field, neither shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the LORD your God.

Jer. 22:3. Do justice and righteousness, and deliver the one who has been robbed from the power of his oppressor. Also *do not mistreat or do violence to the stranger, *the orphan, or the widow; and do not shed innocent blood in this place.

Prov. 19:17. He who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD, and He will repay him for his good deed.

Your Brother in Christ,
Richard.

 

[Ender]

The Bishops take way to many stands, almost on every single bill that passes through congress, the bishops are taking a stand. Excuse me, but that is not there place!!!

Bravo. The USCCB has become just another political special interest group.

The bishops are to enunciate Catholic doctrine in communion with the Pope, and the laity are to put the principles into action.

One would think this fact was too obvious to need mentioning. Regrettably that’s not the case.

Ender

 

[Ender]

It is true that as Christians we are instructed to obey the laws of the nations in which we live**:Romans 13:1-7**. However, if any of those laws are contrary to Gods will, we are to disobay them**:Acts 5:16-42**. This tells us two facts:

1. A Nation set up by God, still has the freewill to obey or disobey God.
2. In order to revere Gods Law rather than man’s a man must examine his heart through the eyes of the Spirit in him.

I didn’t ask for your interpretation of scripture. I asked someone to cite a comment from a bishop saying we are free to violate a specific law relating to immigration. What law has been declared immoral and therefore not binding on Catholics? As far as I know, no bishop has made such a claim.

Ender

 

[white_sheep]

Is this something that the Catholic Church has ever said? I am not contradicting this opinion, just wondering if it can be specifically backed up.

No, it can’t be specifically backed up. It is obvious though.

In any case, supporting illegal immigrants is not immoral. In fact, there are times when not helping some one in need can cause Jesus to tell us to depart from Him in the final judgement.

I understand that not all here who help the poor and extend friendship to the stranger do this as a part of their Christianity that are not illegal immigrants, or immigrants at all. I think it equally important to understand that there are many who God lays it on them to extend charity to these people.

Definitely. We should help the poor and suffering among us no matter who they are. This is the typical hate the sin love the sinner situation.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

No, it can’t be specifically backed up. It is obvious though.

Definitely. We should help the poor and suffering among us no matter who they are. This is the typical hate the sin love the sinner situation.

Correct. Ignoring the law and showing God’s mercy to those suffering are two completely distinct issues, but the pro-illegal immigration people try to blur the line and state that ignoring the law IS showing mercy to the suffering.

 

[pnewton]

but the pro-illegal immigration people try to blur the line and state that ignoring the law IS showing mercy to the suffering.

This is specifically why I posted the second part to my last post. They are two different issues. The only thing I will add is that the line gets blurred by people on both sides of the issues. I have seen the bishops castigated as pro-illegal immigration for charitable programs designed to help these people.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

I didn’t ask for your interpretation of scripture. I asked someone to cite a comment from a bishop saying we are free to violate a specific law relating to immigration. What law has been declared immoral and therefore not binding on Catholics? As far as I know, no bishop has made such a claim.

Ender

You are a very Rude person,
You may choose to disagree with my Spiritual interpretation of Holy Scripture but perhaps you would like to disagree with The Great Pope John Paul II The Beautiful from whom I take my stand.
From THE CHURCH AND ILLEGAL IMMMIGRATION
Pope John Paul II
Annual Message for World Migration Day 1996 given July 25, 1995

 

[Ender]

You are a very Rude person,

I’m focused and blunt.

You may choose to disagree with my Spiritual interpretation of Holy Scripture but perhaps you would like to disagree with The Great Pope John Paul II The Beautiful from whom I take my stand.

I have no need to agree or disagree with him since nothing you cited is relevant to the point I raised. His position is no more relevant than yours since neither of them responds to my challenge, which was to quote any bishop saying we were morally justified in disobeying a particular law. I understand that “*Wherefore if a case arise wherein the observance of that law would be hurtful to the general welfare, it should not be observed.” *(Aquinas), but this is a general statement. What bishop has explicitly defined any particular law this way and called for it to be ignored? Even Archbishop Dolan, who excoriated the Arizona law as well as the people who supported it, didn’t claim it should be ignored. Nor did the bishops of Alabama who are suing the state over its new law claim that it should be ignored. I don’t believe there is any moral basis for claiming that our immigration laws are so unjust that we are justified in violating them, and I certainly don’t believe the bishops support that position.

Ender

 

[Mudgely]

Very interesting. I understand what you are saying about the immigrant starving and thinking that coming to America (Illegally) would be the answer. From our perspective, I think we should still uphold our laws and customs, but at the same time, recognize a need to donate to these people.

I personally am against Illegal Immigration from Mexico for the following reasons…

1. Mexico’s GDP per Capita is in the top 35 percentile in the world. Their Economy is really not all that bad. It is better off than a number of European Countries including Russia.
2. By allowing Illegal Immigration we are not allowing Legal Immigration. There are millions of people who are waiting in line to come here legally. Imagine if we were able to increase the amount of legal immigrants by decreasing illegals…we might be able to take in more Starving East Africans.
3. The Drug Cartel. Drugs are creeping over the border along with the Illegal Immigrants. I have heard figures as high as 100 billion dollars worth every year.
4. More than 90 Billion Dollars in Government Benefits (Welfare, Health Care, and yes Financial Aid) go to Illegal Immigrants. This is a lot of money when you figure that the United States yearly budget is 1.5 trillion. This may have made the difference in our AAA bond rating.
5. Most Illegal Immigrants come here to get on Welfare. They don’t have to work. They simply just have children.
6. They will most likely vote democrat. 44% of Democrats want to award them with Amnesty right now. While only 33% Independents and 16% Republican.

Their GDP per capita is about $9,500 the same as Russia and Turkey, and about 1/5th of the US at $47K, which is about 25% of Monaco at $172K per person.

Where do you get the $90B number? The estimates I find are about 1/5th of that.

I have not observed that “most” immigrants come here to get on welfare.

Why does it matter how they vote, if they vote. In the 2006 election only 18% of the vote was latino for the house of representatives. It is unknown how many of those were illegals.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

I’m focused and blunt.
I have no need to agree or disagree with him since nothing you cited is relevant to the point I raised. His position is no more relevant than yours since neither of them responds to my challenge, which was to quote any bishop saying we were morally justified in disobeying a particular law. I understand that “*Wherefore if a case arise wherein the observance of that law would be hurtful to the general welfare, it should not be observed.” *(Aquinas), but this is a general statement. What bishop has explicitly defined any particular law this way and called for it to be ignored? Even Archbishop Dolan, who excoriated the Arizona law as well as the people who supported it, didn’t claim it should be ignored. Nor did the bishops of Alabama who are suing the state over its new law claim that it should be ignored. I don’t believe there is any moral basis for claiming that our immigration laws are so unjust that we are justified in violating them, and I certainly don’t believe the bishops support that position.

Ender

Well the Mighty Ender believes he is a more enlightened man than Pope John Paul II The Great & Beautiful !!!.
**
ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY ENDER !!!**
:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown::bowdown

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

**@ MUDGLEY 3) The Drug Cartel. Drugs are creeping over the border along with the Illegal Immigrants. I have heard figures as high as 100 billion dollars worth every year.
**
In response to that the Government of the United States began to ship weapons to the Cartels. Paid for by American Tax Dollars. The next time you see some innocent shot on the streets of Mexico City remember that the guns and bullets will be stamped with the epitaph
**" MADE IN SPRINGFIELD U.S.A " ** ! ! ! In fact you will find **MADE IN U.S.A MADE IN U.K MADE IN GERMANY ect ect ect. ** epitaph’d on every gun in every war zone from here to Timbuktu.Your defending your pocketbook not the defenceless like Christ told you to do !
Your Brother in Christ,
Richard.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Closed for lack of charity

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Thread re-opened by request

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Play nice.

 

[tqualey]

Hold on there White Sheep,

Let’s not be vague about this - the Catholic Church has specifcally taught that the 4th Commandment also includes obeying civil authority. Here are references from the CCC:

**2198 This commandment is expressed in positive terms of duties to be fulfilled. It introduces the subsequent commandments which are concerned with particular respect for life, marriage, earthly goods, and speech. It constitutes one of the foundations of the social doctrine of the Church.

2199 The fourth commandment is addressed expressly to children in their relationship to their father and mother, because this relationship is the most universal. It likewise concerns the ties of kinship between members of the extended family. It requires honor, affection, and gratitude toward elders and ancestors. Finally, it extends to the duties of pupils to teachers, employees to employers, subordinates to leaders, citizens to their country, and to those who administer or govern it.

This commandment includes and presupposes the duties of parents, instructors, teachers, leaders, magistrates, those who govern, all who exercise authority over others or over a community of persons.

2200 Observing the fourth commandment brings its reward: "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which the LORD your God gives you."8 Respecting this commandment provides, along with spiritual fruits, temporal fruits of peace and prosperity. Conversely, failure to observe it brings great harm to communities and to individuals. **

As I appreciate this thread, the US has validly instituted law that are there to protect the common good of the citizens of the US. Just like other countries enact valid laws to protect the citizens of their country.

Maybe we should spend some time on actually looking at how LEGAL immigration is working in this country, instead of berating those who write the laws and those who actually defend our national borders from those who would do violence to all human rights.

God bless

No, it can’t be specifically backed up. It is obvious though.

Definitely. We should help the poor and suffering among us no matter who they are. This is the typical hate the sin love the sinner situation.

 

[YourAverageJoe]

If I have my National Patriot glasses on, I see a certain way, I think certain way, I see my neighbor a certain way,

If I have my Christ glasses on, I see a certain way, I think a certain way, I see my neighbor a certain way…

the promises of our great nation are not forever. Study history, nations built by human hands come and go,… but Christ is forever,

in Christ!

 

[IrishSFV]

That’s rather…enigmatic.

 

[KSU]

Per an open boarders person: "In response to that, the Government of the United States began to ship weapons to the Cartels. Paid for by American Tax Dollars. The next time you see some innocent shot on the streets of Mexico City remember that the guns and bullets will be stamped with the epitaph
" MADE IN SPRINGFIELD U.S.A "

For those in this thread who may be confused by the above, please note that the “government” of the U S never has shipped and of course never will ship guns to the drug cartels.That was done illegally by the Obama Justice Department, which is both anti-traditional U S and pro-illegal Democrat. It was done secretly so that, when the guns would start to be uncovered at crime scenes in Mexico, the anti-Second Amendment Justice Department and Obama could renew their attack on the Second Amendment to the U S Constitution.

The Justice Department never intended to trace the guns to drug cartels (which was the excuse given for that illegal gambit) because (1) we don’t have that capability, (2) even if we did have that capability, our own people in Mexico were kept in the dark, (3) the Mexican government, which might have the capability to trace the guns to cartels, were never informed of the shipments, and (4) it probably is against international law just as it is against U S law. The death toll of innocents, including at least one American law enforcement officer, cannot yet be totaled and may never be known.

It is ironic that some open boarders people so hate the U S that in order to slime it they would call attention to the illegal activities of the segment of the U S that sides with them, i.e., the segment that doesn’t want to stop illegal Democrats from coming here.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, YAJ,

I really am a bit confused by your post.

In my mind’s eye… I really do not see Christ waving any naptional flag, but I do see Him telling His followers to obey both civil authority and religious authority.

We are to be compassionate and extend the love of Christ to others - to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. The US has developed a set of immigration laws that allow others into this country - this country does not bar immigration. Much of the rhetoric against US immigration laws would have us believe that no one is allowed in. But, this is obviously not the case since every year there are thousands of LEGAL immigrants who take an oath to be US Citizens. Here is an interesting link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law

While I am not sure about anyone else … what I am trying to do is substantiate that the US really does have valid immigration laws, that allow foreign nationals into the country for legal purposes. The debate seems to hings on the view that the US is not letting in ‘enough’ people - so this is an issue of degree and not of kind.

No country lasts forever. And, there are many reasons why I think our country is in danger - abortion, same-sex-marriage, an entitlement mentality, etc - but, I think our immigration policies are sound and just.

God bless

If I have my National Patriot glasses on, I see a certain way, I think certain way, I see my neighbor a certain way,

If I have my Christ glasses on, I see a certain way, I think a certain way, I see my neighbor a certain way…

the promises of our great nation are not forever. Study history, nations built by human hands come and go,… but Christ is forever,

in Christ!

 

[Brother_Art]

So all of us whites are collectively guilty for depleting the Native American numbers, yet you get bothered by a poster ‘singling out’ the largest illegal immigrant group? Seems you plead guilty! Enough said.

Any rational person would say that it’s a good reason to enforce our laws. We don’t want to end up that way. What about the Indian Spring? Doesn’t that bother you? Or are you a Muslim.

Yes, they were like hippies, flitting about the place, spreading love and nature worship throughout the land, strumming guitars and smoking pipes together until the big bad white Man came and spoiled all their fun forever. Get real man, show me proof that “most Native American Indians were peace-loving people who never had a natural enemy”.

Sounds like you don’t like hippies. Guess many or most of them were White.