Illegal Immigration

[Ender]

This is where it appears to me that Roger Cardinal Mahony strongly disagrees with this, since he says that it is crystal clear that God’s mandate is that aliens, non-residents, must be welcomed and embraced. When a bishop, archbishop or cardinal speaks on matters of faith and morals and officially sets up a web page to teach what is a sacred mandate from Almighty God, I thought that it would be part of the authentic ordinary and authoritative magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church and Catholics are bound in obedience to give assent to these moral teachings and mandates from God, unless directed otherwise?

If we called a tail a leg, would a dog have five legs? Given that simply saying it is so doesn’t actually make it so, the answer obviously is no. The same is true for Mahony’s comments. He is wrong; we have no moral obligation to embrace illegal immigration.

Ender

 

[potter_mp]

I live in Texas where illegal alians, (I’m not a politically correct person) run rampid. In my town there are illegals who think we owe them everything. They won’t learn english and if you don’t speak their language they laugh at you. They talk about you in their language but they don’t know my wife is half Spanish who looks white and speeks spanish and she comfronts them in spanish and the look on their faces when she does that is priceless. The automatically stop talking. Here almost every job requires that you are bilingual and in ( ) it says “spanish.” Business that were once english run and speeking are now spanish speaking and spanish run. If you are not a Mexican and go into their store they make you feel unwelcome and look at you as if to say “what are you doing here gringo.” The side of town that they mainly live used to be considered the nice side of town, but that has changed, Its like going into a 3rd world country. The city is trying to clean it up but the residents there want the city to pay for fixing their houses and thing like that.

Now I am by far a racists. But something has got to be done about this illegal alian problem. First our government needs to enforce the existing immigaration laws. They need to tighten up on the borders, like putting the military there to stop it and not just to be observers with no power to arrest or not even being able to comfront them. They need to crack down on the santurary cities by cutting their funding for breaking federal laws by harbering illegals. They need to crack down on business that give jobs to illegals and close down the business that are run and owned by illegals. Many of them have been living here for years and never bothered to learn english because they don’t need to because your government puts everything in english and spanish, so as long as they keep doing that there is no need to learn english and that needs to stop. As far as the children that are born here by illegal parents, otherwise known as anhcor babies. The parents need to make a choice, if you want to keep your family together take your children back to your home country or give them up to the authorities but ya can’t stay here. Sorry if it seems cold hearted.
Amnisty is not a option. What you are saying by giving millions of them amnisty is “its ok if you broke our laws, don’t worry about it we will reward you with citizenship. Now you may have to pay a 2000 or 5000 dollar fine but thats all and you are a citizen.” What about the thousands that are on the waiting list for years and years waiting to do it the legal way. I want them first instead of the ones who came her illegally, at least they respect our laws.
Religion has nothing to do with this. Some site that we are all Gods children and we are to care for the needy. All fine and good if you want to care for them then let them go back home country and you can provide them financially by sending them money every week to live on. Its not inhumane or un christi;an like to send them back to their home country and demand they go by the rule of law and come here the legal way. Its like the sayings go: When in Rome do what he Romans do. or Give to Cesar what is Cesar. If your in America do as the Americans do. (speak english) or Give to the Americans what is the Americans {respect our laws)

rev kevin, your description of the illegal alien problem mirrors my experiences in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area exactly. I agree 100% with your solutions to reverse the damage caused by the illegal alien problem. We can never reward these thieves amnesty under any circumstances. In Washington, we need to discontinue the anchor baby benefit and I believe after this mid term election, the House especially is willing to plug this loop hole.
The Church’s stand on illegal immigration is very disappointing to me and to be honest has really damaged my faith in the American Bishops as an organization to lead the American Catholic Church. I was a Baptist preachers kid who converted 2 years ago.
It took my wife and I about ten years of prayer and study before we began RCIA. From almost day one, we we aware of the tensions between the two groups, those who attended the english masses and those who attended the spanish masses. In our deacons homily last Sunday he mentioned the two groups and he said we were one church. NOT and everyone knows it is not so. I will never forget the first mass we attended at this parish, Father wanted everyone to fill out a questionnaire, stating the one thing you most wanted or needed from the church that she did not offer. The number 4 most popular request was for a Mexican Priest, even though our Priest is fluent in spanish. These people are coming into our community by the hundreds, living off of our social services, attending our church but show no respect for or priest or our culture.
As we are leaving our english mass the mexicans are arriving for their mass, you can not help to notice the bumper stickers on their cars about La Raza or something about “the color” in spanish. Actions speak a lot louder then words, the illegals have proven they have no repect for our laws and they are not here to join us, they are here to take over and replace our culture.

 

[catsrus]

After 20 years in the Phoenix area, I speak from experience.
These illegals are thieves of the worst sort. They steal our, education, our healthcare and everything else they can get their hands on and not pay for.
Take a good long look at the border area of AZ around Douglas. It’s a nightmare of trash, tons and tons of trash.
Our namby pamby government better do something soon before we are completely outnumbered.
Then what?

 

[sidbrown]

If we called a tail a leg, would a dog have five legs? Given that simply saying it is so doesn’t actually make it so, the answer obviously is no. The same is true for Mahony’s comments. He is wrong; we have no moral obligation to embrace illegal immigration.

Ender

Of course this is totally false according to Catholic teaching as expressed in the papal encyclical Lumen Gentium:
"For bishops are preachers of the faith, who lead new disciples to Christ, and they are authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach to the people committed to them the faith they must believe and put into practice, and by the light of the Holy Spirit illustrate that faith. They bring forth from the treasury of Revelation new things and old,(164) making it bear fruit and vigilantly warding off any errors that threaten their flock.(165) Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. "
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

Obviously, when a bishop is speaking of a crystal clear divine mandate from God, he is speaking in a matter of faith and morals. How can any Catholic deny that a crystal clear mandate from Almighty God does not concern faith and morals?

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Of course this is totally false according to Catholic teaching as expressed in the papal encyclical Lumen Gentium:
"For bishops are preachers of the faith, who lead new disciples to Christ, and they are authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach to the people committed to them the faith they must believe and put into practice, and by the light of the Holy Spirit illustrate that faith. They bring forth from the treasury of Revelation new things and old,(164) making it bear fruit and vigilantly warding off any errors that threaten their flock.(165) Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. "
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

Obviously, when a bishop is speaking of a crystal clear divine mandate from God, he is speaking in a matter of faith and morals. How can any Catholic deny that a crystal clear mandate from Almighty God does not concern faith and morals?

sid, you are either not reading our posts or you are having trouble comprehending what we are saying. I will try to be as clear as I can with this.

THERE IS NO MANDATE FROM GOD to accept every illegal immigrant into our country. Just because one single cardinal says that accepting every illegal immigrant is a mandate from God does not make it a mandate from God and just because he is a bishop does not automatically mean that every time he says there is a mandate from God, he is speaking in an ex cathedra manner in union with the pope. What, exactly, is this “crystal clear” mandate you are talking about? Where in Scripture does it say to reward people who break the law? Why not just give thieves the objects they steal after they are caught? That is exactly what you and Cardinal Mahoney are proposing–to give illegal immigrants citizenship after they have broken the law, even though there are thousands of people who have been waiting for YEARS to become citizens legally.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I am saddened by this thread

The history of America is built on immigration, and they have made the native American Indians a second class citizen.

Americans plundered Africa for slaves, and brought them to America.

America’s policy in Iraq has caused over two million refugees from that country.

America interferes in many other countries thinking they have the right to be the global police force

I do not believe American policy is built on fairness to weaker countries.

 

[potter_mp]

I am saddened by this thread

The history of America is built on immigration, and they have made the native American Indians a second class citizen.

Americans plundered Africa for slaves, and brought them to America.

America’s policy in Iraq has caused over two million refugees from that country.

America interferes in many other countries thinking they have the right to be the global police force

I do not believe American policy is built on fairness to weaker countries.

Eric,
Why should any one of America’s wrongs you mentioned in your post, prevent us from protecting our borders and regulating who enters our country?
What does American policy being built on fairness to weaker countries have to do with our immigration policy?

 

[Ender]

In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent.

Fine … but this isn’t a matter of either faith or morals so this particular comment doesn’t apply. Bishop Mahony has his opinion about the best way to solve our immigration problems and I have mine, but his opinion is no more binding on me than mine is on him. The opinions even of popes is not binding, let alone the opinions of bishops. Immigration is a prudential issue - it is entirely political; there are no moral choices here unless you assume that those who hold different positions do so for immoral reasons, but that is a judgment of the people involved, not of the issues.

Obviously, when a bishop is speaking of a crystal clear divine mandate from God, he is speaking in a matter of faith and morals. How can any Catholic deny that a crystal clear mandate from Almighty God does not concern faith and morals?

I don’t think you understood the point about the question I asked about whether you could change the nature of something simply by calling it something else. Mahony may call it a mandate from God but that doesn’t actually change what it is … his prudential opinion about the best way to solve a problem.

Ender

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Hello potter_mp;

Why should any one of

America’s wrongs you mentioned in your post, prevent us from protecting our borders and regulating who enters our country?

The Native American Indians should have been allowed to protect their boarders, that didn’t work. It seems you are advocating when enough people take over a country by force, they then have the legal right to set up their own rules.

If your ancestors were not Native American Indian, did they have permission from these Indians to enter America?

All land belongs to God, we are temporary custodians on God’s Earth, how can we make such claims.

What does American policy being built on fairness to weaker countries have to do with our immigration policy?

Just one small example, America invaded Iraq for very dubious reasons, the result is two million plus people have been driven out of their home and their country. Are you saying America has no moral obligation to help these victims find homes?

 

[sidbrown]

What, exactly, is this “crystal clear” mandate you are talking about?

Cardinal Mahony used this expression.

 

[sidbrown]

I am saddened by this thread

The history of America is built on immigration, and they have made the native American Indians a second class citizen.

Americans plundered Africa for slaves, and brought them to America.

America’s policy in Iraq has caused over two million refugees from that country.

America interferes in many other countries thinking they have the right to be the global police force

I do not believe American policy is built on fairness to weaker countries.

Of course, you are absolutely right on this. I am also saddened by the refusal of people to obey Lumen Gentium and Cardinal Mahony.

 

[Ender]

Of course, you are absolutely right on this. I am also saddened by the refusal of people to obey Lumen Gentium and Cardinal Mahony.

No one has a problem with what Lumen Gentium says, but disagreeing with Mahony is not at all the same as rejecting what the Church teaches. She does not, despite Mahony’s claim, teach that we have a moral obligation either to open our borders or grant amnesty to those who have come here illegally. You misunderstand what LG says if you think every word from the mouth of a bishop requires our assent.

Ender

 

[SeekingHisHeart]

I think as another poster said fair minded people can disagree on this topic.Should people break the law and come illegally and skip others in line who have waited for years to get into this country,no. But it it fair to send them back? We have to treat people with dignity and need to find a balanced approach

a couple points i think have to be considered

it is fiscally impossible to send tens of millions of people back over to their rightful country because of the cost.

they should be made legal because they are treated as a new kind of "slave"worker that is taken advantage of by people. Being made legal they can pay taxes and receive a just wage

The boarder should be secured and the people already here given a path to citizenship

my final point is I think Our Lady of Guadalupe is sending people from Mexico here because it is the only way our country is stabilizing our population because the number of abortions we are having as a country. As a country we would be dying without this influx of illegals from Catholic countries. Also they help us be more Catholic…my 2cents

I’ll add this because i think it’s important. It makes it difficult for me to see how Cardinal Mahoney has anything good to say on this topic because(God bless Him) but he is a heterodox bishop and not the best to use for an argument. Also they’re are other Bishops that disagree with him on this topic

 

[dusty_david]

I think the future here in the great Southwest is brown. I mean “brown” people of mexican heritage who will be the largest ethnic group. Also brown landscape now we do not have the water anymore to reproduce an english or east coast landscape.
I do not think either situation is that bad. Families of mexican heritage seem to get the ideas of self help, care for children, low divorce rate, and regular church attendence. Also mexican and mexican american young men, say 18-30, seem be genuinely comfortable with children. Worked at Home Depot for an additional part time job and loved seeing tattooed young men carrying around their baby nephews, nieces, cousins, etc. while still swaggering around and talking macho .
Facts are the face of catholics in the southwest will be more and more brown. I suspect the bishops understand that basic fact and getting ready for it. Besides, this old redneck is learning conversational spanish. It ain’t that hard.

 

[rev_kevin]

Hello potter_mp;

The Native American Indians should have been allowed to protect their boarders, that didn’t work. It seems you are advocating when enough people take over a country by force, they then have the legal right to set up their own rules.

If your ancestors were not Native American Indian, did they have permission from these Indians to enter America?

All land belongs to God, we are temporary custodians on God’s Earth, how can we make such claims.

Just one small example, America invaded Iraq for very dubious reasons, the result is two million plus people have been driven out of their home and their country. Are you saying America has no moral obligation to help these victims find homes?

ALL land belongs to God. Then I want to build a house on your property, OPS I mean on Gods land that you are inhabiting. Now once I do that I want you to pay for my medical along with my families, my education along with my families, my food, I want you to speak my laungage (lets say it Polish) but I won’t learn yours, I don’t want you to ask me if I belong on your property because it would be profiling. I don’t want you to kick me off the property because I have children that were born on your property and I want to keep us all together as a family. I want signs put in both languages mine and yours, I want business to speak my language so I can do business with them and I want you to make me a part of your family with all the inheritance’s, privilages that come out of being a part of your family because I think you owe me that.
Would you be willing to do all that?

 

[rev_kevin]

I think as another poster said fair minded people can disagree on this topic.Should people break the law and come illegally and skip others in line who have waited for years to get into this country,no. But it it fair to send them back? We have to treat people with dignity and need to find a balanced approach

a couple points i think have to be considered

it is fiscally impossible to send tens of millions of people back over to their rightful country because of the cost.

they should be made legal because they are treated as a new kind of "slave"worker that is taken advantage of by people. Being made legal they can pay taxes and receive a just wage

The boarder should be secured and the people already here given a path to citizenship

my final point is I think Our Lady of Guadalupe is sending people from Mexico here because it is the only way our country is stabilizing our population because the number of abortions we are having as a country. As a country we would be dying without this influx of illegals from Catholic countries. Also they help us be more Catholic…my 2cents

I’ll add this because i think it’s important. It makes it difficult for me to see how Cardinal Mahoney has anything good to say on this topic because(God bless Him) but he is a heterodox bishop and not the best to use for an argument. Also they’re are other Bishops that disagree with him on this topic

No its not financally possible but if you keep them for getting jobs, cut of their social services, they will self deport because there is nothing her for them.

If you stop giving them jobs, if we crack down on the business that hire them then the modern slavery thing would not exist.

They have a path to citizenship, get in line like all the others who are doing it legally. You want to reward illegal activity.

Are you serious about your final point. Tell me your joking, please.

Now answer me this, it takes about $2000 to $7000 for a cyote to bring them across the border. If they can save that kind of money to come here why didn’t they us it to support their families, to feed their familes?
Now if you want to cross the border you have to carry a backpack full of illegal drugs. HMM this sounds like Our Lady of Gaudalupe. Sending people illegally over the border, carring illegal drugs, and spending money that could support, feed and cloth their families.
I don’t think so.

 

[sidbrown]

No one has a problem with what Lumen Gentium says, but disagreeing with Mahony is not at all the same as rejecting what the Church teaches. She does not, despite Mahony’s claim, teach that we have a moral obligation either to open our borders or grant amnesty to those who have come here illegally. You misunderstand what LG says if you think every word from the mouth of a bishop requires our assent.

Ender

Here is a quote from Lumen Gentium: "In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. "

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Hello rev kevin;

ALL land belongs to God. Then I want to build a house on your property, OPS I mean on Gods land that you are inhabiting. Now once I do that I want you to pay for my medical along with my families, my education along with my families, my food, I want you to speak my laungage (lets say it Polish) but I won’t learn yours, I don’t want you to ask me if I belong on your property because it would be profiling. I don’t want you to kick me off the property because I have children that were born on your property and I want to keep us all together as a family. I want signs put in both languages mine and yours, I want business to speak my language so I can do business with them and I want you to make me a part of your family with all the inheritance’s, privilages that come out of being a part of your family because I think you owe me that.

People who have wants in the way you describe, often find devious ways to make it happen, they can also use force- does that make it morally right?

Would you be willing to do all that?

Not in the way you suggest, but if you were homeless and destitute, then maybe?

Here are a few passages that talk about how to treat aliens, or in today’s language, refugees, immigrants.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

---

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."

 

[Janet1983]

I do not support illegal immigration and I think any nation should be allowed to secure and protect its borders. I have a personal stake in this too. I am not a citizen of the nation I reside in, even though I would love to. I have to wait until I can apply because there is a requirement on how long I have to be a resident before I can apply.
I went through a long process to get to the US anyways, just because I was married to a soldier and he got transferred back to the US.
Illegal immigrants shed a bad light on all other immigrants as well who have saved up money and spend hours waiting in line and to get their paperwork straight.
Any normal immigrant has to go through this process and then it still takes years to get citizenship.
I cannot understand how some people sneak themselves into the country, bypassing the system and then not expect that this same system will throw them out when they are caught.
I don’t think that the US owes anything to people who sneak up on her.
I do not have a problem with immigrants, I am an immigrant. I have a problem with those who break the law by coming here and the ones who support this.

 

[Captain_America]

Great post Janet!