Illegal Immigration

[sidbrown]

I seem to remember your arguing Catholic Church Teaching contracts the Bible in another thread.

Once again, this is off-topic. You are trying to derail the thread which has to do with illegal immigration. In any case, I never mentioned anything about Catholic teaching contracting the Bible.

 

[sidbrown]

Now you are picking and choosing excerpts from different bishops, who are not speaking ex Cathedra to make your case.

It is more than one bishop. Doesn’t Lumen Gentium say we are supposed to listen to our bishops?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Should a Catholic listen to an anonymous blogger on the internet or should he listen to the reasonable statements of the Catholic bishops, such as Cardinal Mahony, Archbishop Jerome E. Listecki, Archbishop Gonzales, etc. ? I think that the answer is crystal clear according to the papal encyclical Lumen Gentium.

I totally agree with the points made d97c. I disagree with your interpretation of Lumen Gentium. I’d be interested in seeing your point by point response to d97c’s post.

 

[d97c]

Sid !! STOP. Using the term “reasonable” and “Cardinal Mahony” in the same sentence is a real stretch!!..he needs to just be a paid spokesman for the left wing of the Democratic Party…
Lumen Gentium. I read it…when it was written !!..Does Lumen Gentium mean that whatever the Bishop says about illegal immigration I must believe, adopt, vote for, support, accept, urge, follow, act on, and THEREBY reject all other opinions no matter what the facts are OR whether it SUPPORTS THE COMMON GOOD !!! Of course it doesnt ! Sid…look up the term “prudential judgment.” Here’s a start for ya Sid. The Holy Father has explained the difference in considering abortion and in considering issues like the death penalty and condicting a war. Here’s what the Pope said—
""3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

As a Catholic, I can totally reject what this Bishop here says about illegal immigration and his open borders advocacy because I am totally convinced that the COMMON GOOD is harmed by the influx of illegals. I dont have that right vis-a-vis abortion. Lumen does NOT say or imply that whatever a Bishop says about ANYTHING is something that must be adopted or followed.
MOST Catholics reject illegal immigration. Count me in !!

 

[d97c]

…and I take leave to re-post my questions on the statement of Archbishop Listecki…who obviously hasnt thought about what he says…
“Here is the HUGE problem with those 2 examples. What if I steal a car which is then reported stolen by the owner. I drive it around town. It’s obvious that it is NOT my car, but the police have other more serious crimes to investigate. However, one month there is a hard crackdown on stolen cars and they see me driving it and arrest me. OR…I sell drugs, and I fear being caught, so I steal an identity of someone else. However, one month I am discovered as the person who has hidden their crime and become someone else? Should I be arrested because"execution was not enforced” quick enough??? WHAT PRECEDENT ARE YOU SETTING HERE??
Second------your second example says this to criminals “If I cant get what I want through legal channels, YOU ARE JUSTIFIED in taking it anyway.” Here’s the precedent you are setting: If I , in my OWN judgment, believe a law is slow,(“difficult” is the quote) …or not good enough or causes ME delay,as the person wanting this benefit or freebee … I can violate it!!! Where would you draw the line…what other crimes-according to Sid-is it ok for me to violate because I dont like the way it EFFECTS me??? Can I cheat the IRS because it is slow or unfair?? or takes too much of my money?? Just try it !! It is ab-so-lute-ly unbelievable what extent these people will go through to coddle these illegal aliens. NONE wants to put them on trains , planes or automobiles and carry them back. STOP THE JOBS NOW. STOP THE HEALTH CARE NOW AND THE FREEBEES. They will go back. Bet-cha !
Sid—your prescription for law enforcement in society, if practiced consistently, means NO law enforcement. …and what you quoted is surely not Catholicism !"

 

[rev_kevin]

Now there is a push to make the media stop using the word Illegal immagrants because its against our Constitution. Your innocent until proven guilty one professor said and pushing. Instead he wants them to be called undocumented immagrants.

Also the Illegal alians that were convicted of being here illegally want their convictions overturned because they are now claiming they don’t know the laws here and didn’t realize it was against the law when they entered or snuck into the U.S… They are also claiming that their lawers did not represent them correctly. I heard this on the news this morning.

 

[sidbrown]

…Sid—your prescription for law enforcement in society, if practiced consistently, means NO law enforcement. …and what you quoted is surely not Catholicism !"

My prescription is to follow the teaching of our holy Catholic bishops on undocumented immigrants, who have been calling for refuge for those unfortunate people who have been fleeing persecution and exploitation. As you know, Catholic teaching requires us to give the assent of both our will and intellect to these sound and reasonable Catholic teachings of our bishops. I hope that everyone would kindly read the statement of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops called “Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship.” And please realise that this document was approved by the full body of US bishops at its November, 2007 General Meeting One thing in the official document that especially stands out for this thread is paragraph 83: Part of which reads as follows: "83. The Gospel mandate to “welcome the stranger” requires Catholics to care for and stand with immigrants, both documented and undocumented, including immigrant children. Comprehensive reform is urgently necessary to fix a broken immigration system and should include a temporary work program with worker protections and a path to permanent residency; family reunification policies; a broad and fair legalization program; access to legal protections, including due process and essential public programs; refuge for those fleeing persecution and exploitation; and policies to address the root causes of migration…

 

[sidbrown]

Do we believe in throwing acid in womens faces? NO.
Do we believe in killing innocent people because they disagree with the president? NO
Do we believe in a dictator? NO
Do we believe in stoning people? NO
Do we believe in hijack planes and fly them into buildings killing thousands of innocent people? NO
Do we believe in toruring our citizens because they said something we don’t agree with? NO.
Do we believe in stoning or killing people because they are gay? NO
Do we believe in cutting off the hands of someone who stold? NO.
Do we believe in Sharia law? NO.
I could name more.

Does the US believe in closing its borders? YES.
Notice that this policy contrasts sharply with democracies in Europe today, where the borders are open between various countries, such as France and Gernany, or such as Austria and Hungary, or such as Germany and Austria, and as well many others. It appears, then that these members of the European community, are much more advanced, much more cultured, and much more civilised since they have no problem in maintaining free and open borders between their member countries.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Does the US believe in closing its borders? YES.

NO. The facts do not support that statement. St. Louis is a major resettlement area for Bosnian, Vietnamese, Mexican, and Libyan refugees. The International Institute is a privately run resource that helps these refugees integrate into American society. St Louis is not unique in this endeavor.

Notice that this policy contrasts sharply

NOT, see above

with democracies in Europe today, where the borders are open between various countries, such as France and Gernany, or such as Austria and Hungary, or such as Germany and Austria, and as well many others. It appears, then that these members of the European community, are much more advanced, much more cultured, and much more civilised since they have no problem in maintaining free and open borders between their member countries.

That’s why they have race riots in Paris where Algerian immigrants set cars on fire. That’s why they banned the Burqa and the head scarf in France. That’s why people are not allowed to wear or display crucifixes and other religious symbols in schools and public buildings. That’s why the Netherlands allows euthanasia. That’s why the majority of Europeans do not practice any form of religion. Yes, they surely are more civilized than Americans.

Catholic Charities helps ALL people in need, whether illegal or not. That’s what we are called to do.

Since it has been demonstrated that different bishops have different opinions on illegal immigrants, to which bishop must I listen?

 

[Tigg]

It is more than one bishop. Doesn’t Lumen Gentium say we are supposed to listen to our bishops?

The Episcopal Conferences, such as the USCCB, are bureaucratic bodies and are not part of the Magisterium of the Church per se. They have no authority to teach in and of themselves although you are bound in conscience to your own bishop. Also read the Ratzinger report for further detailed clarification.

catholic-pages.com/church/hierarchy.asp

Bishop Joseph F. Martino said, “The USCCB doesn’t speak for me.”

Anyone who would assert that the bishop’s words are separating or schismatic, simply because he voices disgust with the USCCB, is someone who has no concept whatsoever of how things work in the Roman Catholic Church. Such is the case with many liberal Catholics and most of the mainstream press. They have no concept of how things work because they fail to understand that the USCCB is not an authoritative Catholic body. In fact, it has no authority whatsoever. It cannot pass edicts of it’s own accord. It cannot discipline bishops, priest or laity. It has no way or enforcing what it legislates, and in fact, it has no official standing within the Roman Catholic hierarchy at all. The USCCB is largely a coordinating body, which serves the purpose of allowing bishops to work together in consort so there can be consistency with how things are run in Catholic diocese throughout the United States. They operate much like an official legislative body, except every piece of legislation they pass must be approved by the pope before it can go into effect.

catholicknight.blogspot.com/2008/10/usccb-doesnt-speak-for-me.html

 

[Tigg]

So when the Catholic bishops teach Catholic social justice on immigration it is giving political clout to leftist causes?

Meet the founding member organizations of Justice for Immigrants.
• Catholic Campaign Against Global Poverty
• Catholic Campaign for Human Development, The
• Catholic Charities USA
• Catholic Health Association
• Catholic Legal Immigration Network, Inc., The
• Catholic Relief Services
• Conference of Major Superiors of Men
• Hispanic Affairs - USCCB
• Irish Apostolate USA
• Jesuit Conference
• Jesuit Refugee Service
• Leadership Conference of Women Religious
• Migration and Refugee Services - USCCB
• National Catholic Association of Diocesan Directors of Hispanic Ministries
• National Catholic Educational Association
• National Council of Catholic Women
• Network
• Roundtable, The
• Sisters of Mercy of the Americas, The
• Social Development and World Peace – USCCB

And just what is your understanding of Catholic social justice teaching *on immigration *and please include the basic principals of subsidiarity and solidarity in your answer. At least they’ve always been included in past papal social encyclicals, although lately we’ve not heard too much from the American bishops.

Interesting to note that some of the groups you listed above have been exposed for giving funding to organizations that advocate for abortion and same sex marriage. That is fact and I can’t believe we’re still disputing this.

 

[Tigg]

Does the US believe in closing its borders? YES.

If the U.S. believed in closing the borders, the federal government wouldn’t be trying to sue the State of Arizona, and we wouldn’t even be having this conversation.

My prescription is to follow the teaching of our holy Catholic bishops on undocumented immigrants, who have been calling for refuge for those unfortunate people who have been fleeing persecution and exploitation.

WHAT persecution and exploitation? PLEASE provide documentation for that statement. None that I know, at least from Mexico, are seeking political asylum; in fact, most who come illegally are young and healthy and it has been documented that many are even leaving their jobs in Mexico in order to seek higher wages in this country. The only exploitation being done is by dishonest employers who hire them in violation of federal law in order to increase their own profit and depress the American wage base.

 

[Tigg]

Illegal Immigration is an oxymoron and an insult to those who have immigrated to this country legally. There was a mediagroup association that decided that using the term “illegel aliens” or “illegal immagrants” was an insult to the Latino population, which is laughable since they temselves just painted a broad stoke by implying that Latinos make up all of the illegal aliens.

YUP, you’re correct and the open borders crowd are the ones who began to use the term “illegal immigrant.”

“Immigrant” - by a **federal **definition, is a person who enters the United States lawfully with the intention of permanent residence, or an alien who has been granted lawful permanent residence…commonly known as a “Green Card.”

“Alien” - **is legally defined **as any non-citizen present in the U.S.

There is no such thing as a “legal citizen.” There is no such thing as an illegal citizen. One is either a citizen… or isn’t. An immigrant becomes a citizen through a process called “naturalization.” Naturalized citizens are every bit as much citizens, with the same rights and duties, as native born citizens. Most Americans welcome immigrants and want sustainable immigration.

It is a federal crime to enter the U.S. illegally. (8USC 1325) See also U.S. Supreme Court:

**There does exist an accurate, official and legal term, “illegal alien” - which describes an alien present in the U.S. in violation of American immigration laws. **Most people will recognize the clear insult to real immigrants - and the tradition of immigration into the U.S. - when anyone attempts to blur the line between real immigrants and illegal aliens who escape capture at our borders.

It is a federal crime to induce, bring in, harbor, shelter, conceal, knowingly employ or encourage an illegal alien to remain in the United States. (8USC1324 ).

topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/immigration

 

[qui_est_ce]

LCWR

LCWR, in particular, has gone through a difficult year. The organization is under the cloud of a Vatican doctrinal study; meanwhile, U.S. women religious communities are in the middle of a three-year Vatican investigation, officially called an Apostolic Visitation, into the quality of life in their communities.

Just last May, LCWR, along with a number of other Catholic organizations, **split with the U.S. bishops in their assessments on health care legislation. **

Bad example - not following Catholic superiors.

 

[qui_est_ce]

CCHD

startling evidence has been unearthed about the Catholic Campaign for Human development that shows a** disturbing pattern of cooperation between the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and groups that advocate abortion and same-sex marriage.**

Two reports, released yesterday by the American Life League (ALL) and Bellarmine Veritas Ministry (BVM), reveal that the Center for Community Change (CCC), an organization recommended for support by the USCCB, has consistently taken positions opposed to the bishops’ teachings on abortion, marriage, contraception, and sexuality.

Our bishops tell us to “lend our support” to CCC. Here is only a partial list of what these reports have revealed about the Center for Community Change:E]

1. CCC’s executive director, Deepak Bhargava, states that they are fighting for “lifting restrictions on women’s access to health services.” (Bhargava was also a featured speaker hosted by the USCCB at a three-day conference.)

1. CCC joined the “Stop Stupak” coalition through its “Campaign for Community Change” arm, explaining, “Of course, no issue is more critical to women’s economic opportunity than the ability to choose when and under what personal circumstances to raise children.”

1. CCC is a member of the National Coalition for Immigrant Women’s Rights (NCIWR). NCIWR requires all members to sign an agreement supporting, among other things, “Reproductive health care coverage financed through public funds provided to all immigrant women regardless of legal and economic status,” as well as “equitable access to confidential and non-coercive family planning services and contraceptive equity.”

1. Sean Thomas-Brietfield,** Director of CCC’s Taproots Project, wrote an article promoting consensual “polyamory,” or “relationships where there is no expectation of fidelity.”
   **
2. CCC developed leaders for same-sex marriage advocacy and homosexual activists through its Generation Change program. In 2008**, CCC received a $50,000 grant for leadership training from one of the chief funders of LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered) causes, the Gill Foundation.**

USCBB financing and approving organizations contrary to Catholic Teaching.

 

[d97c]

My prescription is to follow the teaching of our holy Catholic bishops on undocumented immigrants, who have been calling for refuge for those unfortunate people who have been fleeing persecution and exploitation. As you know, Catholic teaching requires us to give the assent of both our will and intellect to these sound and reasonable Catholic teachings of our bishops. I hope that everyone would kindly read the statement of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops called “Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship.” And please realise that this document was approved by the full body of US bishops at its November, 2007 General Meeting One thing in the official document that especially stands out for this thread is paragraph 83: Part of which reads as follows: "83. The Gospel mandate to “welcome the stranger” requires Catholics to care for and stand with immigrants, both documented and undocumented, including immigrant children. Comprehensive reform is urgently necessary to fix a broken immigration system and should include a temporary work program with worker protections and a path to permanent residency; family reunification policies; a broad and fair legalization program; access to legal protections, including due process and essential public programs; refuge for those fleeing persecution and exploitation; and policies to address the root causes of migration…

Now Sid…think about what you are saying here. This nation DOES “welcome the stranger.” We allow legal immigrants in here by about a million a year. …and I must ask you to show me where these illegals come in here to escape “exploitation” or “persecution.” In fact the majority of the illegals had jobs (in Mexico at least) before they sneaked in here. Show me where the definition of “exploitation” or “persecution” includes those who simply want to come to the US to get free health care, undercut American wages or drag their kids in here so we have to educate them. Sid…this AINT a persecution flight these illegals shove on us. and please ask your local Bishop if he means to have the parapraph you quoted above interpreted to mean the way it could read…It looks like they are saying the following:

1. let as many in as WANT to come here…“welcome” means “welcome” right Sid? To restrict numbers is not a “welcome”…right?? Come on–be consistent !!
2. give them what they want, regardless of caring about the cost or who pays for it (certainly wont be the Bishops who want YOU AND ME to pay for it)
3. make them citizens even though most could care less about speaking English or studying OUR history.
4. dont have any border because a “border” means that there are some who might not get in, and to “welcome the immigrant” means NO BORDER. Hey, if there is a border, and ENFORCEMENT, how can we WELCOME them…right Sid?
   I dont care if it is a Bishop or whomever…Bishops have NO expertise on economics, history, tax policy, law enforcement or anything else involving the PRACTICAL ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAWS !!!.
   If this nation follows the exact language of your paragraph above…you can kiss the nation ADIOS !! (sorry to use Espanol there Sid.)
   …and I for one WILL NOT LET THAT HAPPEN WITHOUT A FIGHT (verbally of course)

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Does the US believe in closing its borders? YES.
Notice that this policy contrasts sharply with democracies in Europe today, where the borders are open between various countries, such as France and Gernany, or such as Austria and Hungary, or such as Germany and Austria, and as well many others. **It appears, then that these members of the European community, are much more advanced, much more cultured, and much more civilised **since they have no problem in maintaining free and open borders between their member countries.

Europe-worshiping is completely passe’. Watch for the total collapse of Europe under the weight of statism and unlimited immigration from former colonies that are now sending Muslims to drain the welfare system. Greece is just the beginning. Europe as you know it will be gone in 10-15 years. Then what will you idolize?

Our ancestors LEFT EUROPE to start a new country. You leftists that romanticize everything about the Old Country can go back there and live under their socialism if you wish, you have that freedom. We have a Constitution of our own, read it, live it, or get out. I’ll take anything American over anything European. Stop trying to graft their junk onto our freedom.

 

[sidbrown]

Now Sid…think about what you are saying here. This nation DOES “welcome the stranger.” We allow legal immigrants in here by about a million a year. …and I must ask you to show me where these illegals come in here to escape “exploitation” or “persecution.” In fact the majority of the illegals had jobs (in Mexico at least) before they sneaked in here. Show me where the definition of “exploitation” or “persecution” includes those who simply want to come to the US to get free health care, undercut American wages or drag their kids in here so we have to educate them. Sid…this AINT a persecution flight these illegals shove on us. and please ask your local Bishop if he means to have the parapraph you quoted above interpreted to mean the way it could read…It looks like they are saying the following:

1. let as many in as WANT to come here…“welcome” means “welcome” right Sid? To restrict numbers is not a “welcome”…right?? Come on–be consistent !!
2. give them what they want, regardless of caring about the cost or who pays for it (certainly wont be the Bishops who want YOU AND ME to pay for it)
3. make them citizens even though most could care less about speaking English or studying OUR history.
4. dont have any border because a “border” means that there are some who might not get in, and to “welcome the immigrant” means NO BORDER. Hey, if there is a border, and ENFORCEMENT, how can we WELCOME them…right Sid?
   I dont care if it is a Bishop or whomever…Bishops have NO expertise on economics, history, tax policy, law enforcement or anything else involving the PRACTICAL ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAWS !!!.
   If this nation follows the exact language of your paragraph above…you can kiss the nation ADIOS !! (sorry to use Espanol there Sid.)
   …and I for one WILL NOT LET THAT HAPPEN WITHOUT A FIGHT (verbally of course)

Europe has shown the way to promote peace and harmony between neighboring countries. It allows you to go from France to Germany, for example, with no papers and no checkpoint. The USA has checkpoints at the border.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Europe has shown the way to promote peace and harmony between neighboring countries. It allows you to go from France to Germany, for example, with no papers and no checkpoint. The USA has checkpoints at the border.

We don’t have check point between our states either. And all Europeans are required to carry identity papers with them at all times. Whether or not they are checked at the border or elsewhere is up to the paper checker guy.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Europe has shown the way to promote peace and harmony between neighboring countries. It allows you to go from France to Germany, for example, with no papers and no checkpoint. The USA has checkpoints at the border.

Tell me what Theo van Gogh would have to say about peace and harmony in the Netherlands.

Also, Europe requires Americans to go through extensive check points. Have you gone to Germany on an American passport lately? Have you tried to immigrate to any European country lately? Tell me how easy it is to get a job as an alien over there. YOU CAN’T. In France it is even illegal to work if you are over 65.

Have you tried finding work in Mexico? Do you know what they do to illegals in Mexico?

The United State is not Europe, it is not Canada, it is not Mexico.