Illinois bishops welcome driver’s licenses for undocumented immigrants

[triumphguy]

BTW you Americans: you broke the Law of your Sovereign and King in revolting and fighting for Independence!

But you will say there was a higher ethic: no taxation without representation.

So: look for the higher ethic here. Perhaps there is one.

 

[ProVobis]

Not among Hispanics, it isn’t. They are converting in large numbers to Evangelical Protestantism.

Well, that might be true as well. All I keep hearing is that there is a shortage of Spanish-speaking priests here.

 

[ringil]

Good for this Bishop.

 

[ringil]

May JESUS fashion a whip of chord and drive you out of the temple, or ME, one or the other, I no longer care which.

The United States of America was a country founded on the principles of Judeo-Christian beliefs (to include the 10 Commandments), and dedicated, in shrinking awe and absolute deference to HE WHO IS. To say otherwise is to be wholly ignorant of [the Truth of] real history, or to be wrong on-purpose which is to lie.

N.B. - it is not also the purview of any municipal or public entity, nor of any individual living now, to attempt to reduce that fact to that of a mere superstition. Those unconviced can go read America’s founding documents and the other writings of our founders, and be wholly- apprised otherwise.

Also Note Well, that such Judeo-Christian principals are not found so revered in the founding documents of ANY OTHER NATION IN HISTORY. NOR can it be said that ANY OTHER NATION IN HISTORY, has been so blessed by peace and prosperity and nothing short of absolutely UNPRECEDENTED opportunity to be afforded the time and opportunity to KNOW AND SERVE HIM, here on earth.

AGAIN, there is not anywhere the right granted, and I will provide NO QUARTER, to those attempting to reduce THAT to a mere superstition.

Worship of HE WHO IS, has also been (almost) UNILATERALLY supported by those here in America, who have been so (albeit admittedly just as otherwise undeserving as the rest of the world) willing to sacrifice themselves to afford others the opportunity for the same.

IN ANY CASE, NOWHERE CAN IT BE SEEN, OR SHOULD IT BE SAID, THAT THE DEFENSE OF CHRISTIANITY HAS BEEN SO SHOULDERED BY ANY OTHER NATION SINCE THE FOUNDING OF AMERICA.

THE ALMIGHTY may AT WILL someday choose otherwise, and may even (unknown and unconscionable to the author here) bring us all into one-mindedness in the worship OF HIM, and I humbly pray with raised and trembling soiled hands, that, for all those purposes, the Spirit HE has instilled in me is absolutely supple to HIS WILL.

But now I tell you that such action, by the Church in Illinois is WRONGFUL. Further that the Church, in so doing, stands Far Afield, and saws the limb from the tree on which they are standing. For if America (a Nation under GOD) is theirs to give-away, it is mine to take away from them. The very time they have to consider such a laissez-faire attitude has been WHOLLY AFFORDED BY THE ALMIGHTY, but the skin that holds that water has dripped blood for it on every other corner of the globe in its defense.

WE (Americans) do not aspire to be any other nation in the world.
We do not aspire to be any other people in the world
We do not need any other persons to come to our country who do not first
aspire to be American.
We cannot afford the luxury of indifference towards the sovereignty of our Nation, as that BY THE HAND OF THE ALMIGHTY, is how we afford everything else.

In the eyes of the Church the US is no more special than any other nation.

The Constitution is simply a document written by men for the governing of men- nothing divine in it.

The Church acknowledges no “American Exceptionalism”, and more than "Canadian, French, Japanese, or Sri Lankan Exceptionalism.

 

[Sarcelle]

Perhaps illegal immigration might actually be moral. Just asking the question - I don’t know the situation firsthand - but Thomistic moral theology might be able to say that out of necessity the immigrants have a moral right to be in the country. Whaddya think?

What do you say to the thousands of visa applicants who are in line waiting to get to the country legally? Do you think that illegal immigrants have a more of a right to be in the country than the legal ones?

What I see here is rewarding people who break the law, while the people who patiently wait in line for a visa see people walk right in and rewarded for it.

 

[Sarcelle]

Having lived in Chicago for 2 years,I can tell you many illegal immigrants there already are driving. May actually not be the worst thing to at least have them licensed and somewhat accountable. BTW,in Illinois I can tell you that many of the illegal immigrants are not just Hispanic,but also Polish,Fillipino,Russian.

I agree. Not all illegal immigrants are Hispanics. I’ve met a illegal immigrants who come from all over, from Russia, China, Ireland and New Zealand. I personally know someone from New Zealand who overstayed his student visa.

 

[jwinch2]

BTW,in Illinois I can tell you that many of the illegal immigrants are not just Hispanic,but also Polish,Fillipino,Russian.

Agreed. There are illegal immigrants of a variety of national origin and ethnicity.

 

[tomarin]

BTW you Americans: you broke the Law of your Sovereign and King in revolting and fighting for Independence!

Now that would make a fascinating topic for a thread. (Not that I’m saying this one doesn’t.)

 

[triumphguy]

What do you say to the thousands of visa applicants who are in line waiting to get to the country legally? Do you think that illegal immigrants have a more of a right to be in the country than the legal ones?

What I see here is rewarding people who break the law, while the people who patiently wait in line for a visa see people walk right in and rewarded for it.

I dunno! Maybe your immigration system is too clumsy? I’m just throwing some ideas out there to consider.

My point is that this issue is not all black and white.

What happens if global warming increases and your rivers dry up, and Canada still has lots of fresh water, and we say “No you can’t have any.”

What will happen then?

It’s our water, in our country. But we have massive untapped rivers that flow North to the Arctic, or West to the Pacific or east to Hudson’s Bay and just empty into the ocean.

Do thirsty Americans have a right to our water?

 

[Genesis315]

Under Catholic doctrine, there is a natural right to migrate, since the whole world was created for the good of all. Allowing migration is therefore the general rule, not forbidding it. Restrictions can be placed if certain conditions are met:

CCC:

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the *foreigner *in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

There definitely seems to be room within Catholic doctrine for different opinions as to whether the circumstances in the USA and of those migrating makes the restrictions on immigration here just or unjust.

If one in good conscience considers them unjust, then this paragraph would apply:

CCC:

2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s."48 “We must obey God rather than men”:49

When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50

 

[triumphguy]

Under Catholic doctrine, there is a natural right to migrate, since the whole world was created for the good of all. Allowing migration is therefore the general rule, not forbidding it. Restrictions can be placed if certain conditions are met:

There definitely seems to be room within Catholic doctrine for different opinions as to whether the circumstances in the USA and of those migrating makes the restrictions on immigration here just or unjust.

If one in good conscience considers them unjust, then this paragraph would apply:

[SIGN]Good post![/SIGN]

 

[New_World_Man]

The reality is that many of these people are already here,and have been for many years in some cases. Many parents who are illegally here have children who are US citizens. What do you do? In other cases you have some siblings who are legal and some who aren’t.
As for licenses,again I think it is probably ok. I don’t love doing it,but frankly I thinki it is very practical. It’s the federal government who failed in doing the job on immigration,not states.

 

[sw85]

BTW you Americans: you broke the Law of your Sovereign and King in revolting and fighting for Independence!

Yep.

But you will say there was a higher ethic: no taxation without representation.

Well, I wouldn’t.

So: look for the higher ethic here. Perhaps there is one.

I’m interested in hearing what you think that is. Does fraternal charity oblige us to utterly impoverish ourselves and our families and destroy what little remains of our cultural inheritance in a futile, fruitless, and impossible bid to give free jobs to everyone everywhere?

I dunno! Maybe your immigration system is too clumsy? I’m just throwing some ideas out there to consider.

My point is that this issue is not all black and white.

What happens if global warming increases and your rivers dry up, and Canada still has lots of fresh water, and we say “No you can’t have any.”

What will happen then?

It’s our water, in our country. But we have massive untapped rivers that flow North to the Arctic, or West to the Pacific or east to Hudson’s Bay and just empty into the ocean.

Do thirsty Americans have a right to our water?

If your people are dying of thirst, too, then no, we wouldn’t.

Again, I’m intrigued by the fact that the Church’s teachings on the duties of states to welcome the alien don’t exist in a vacuum. They coexist alongside other teachings about the rule of law, the common good, and the rights of workers. Yet these things get crammed down the memory hole when talking about illegal immigrants. Suddenly the only thing that matters is the immigrant, and suddenly everyone’s talking about him like he’s some sort of cultural ubermensch who will redeem our apostate nation with his sturdy work ethic and proletarian values, despite mountains and mountains of evidence to the contrary. Some perspective is needed here.

 

[Sarcelle]

I dunno! Maybe your immigration system is too clumsy? I’m just throwing some ideas out there to consider.

My point is that this issue is not all black and white.

What happens if global warming increases and your rivers dry up, and Canada still has lots of fresh water, and we say “No you can’t have any.”

What will happen then?

It’s our water, in our country. But we have massive untapped rivers that flow North to the Arctic, or West to the Pacific or east to Hudson’s Bay and just empty into the ocean.

Do thirsty Americans have a right to our water?

Oh, I agree, our immigration system needs looking into and needs some serious reform.

Now for the global warming scenario. This scenario would be more like the U.S illegally tapping into Canadian waters. Now if Canada dares complain that her laws were being violated we in the U.S.would claim that we do have every right to tap into your waters illegally and then we go and have the backing of the Catholic church to validate our position. Now let’s go back to topic. We have illegal immigrants who are coming over the border without regard to U.S. Laws and who are being exploited by greedy businesses. Now does the U.S. have no choice but to roll over and let her laws and right to sovereignty be threatened? Is it the moral high road to let illegal immigrants come over only to be exploited by businesses over here? Is there a happy medium where laws are respected and obeyed and worker dignity respected?

You bet. I know of a fruit orchard in Georgia that employs legal immigrants from Mexico and pays them a living wage. This is a family owned farm and the workers become a part of the family. Result, the legal workers from Mexico get paid and treated fairly and no laws are broken. So there is a way to respect both the U.S. laws and the dignity of the worker. It does not have to be either/or.

Now I wonder. Is it only the U.S. that is being pressured to accept illegal immigrants or is Canada also under pressure?

 

[Sarcelle]

Yep.

Well, I wouldn’t.

I’m interested in hearing what you think that is. Does fraternal charity oblige us to utterly impoverish ourselves and our families and destroy what little remains of our cultural inheritance in a futile, fruitless, and impossible bid to give free jobs to everyone everywhere?

If your people are dying of thirst, too, then no, we wouldn’t.

Again, I’m intrigued by the fact that the Church’s teachings on the duties of states to welcome the alien don’t exist in a vacuum. They coexist alongside other teachings about the rule of law, the common good, and the rights of workers. Yet these things get crammed down the memory hole when talking about illegal immigrants. Suddenly the only thing that matters is the immigrant, and suddenly everyone’s talking about him like he’s some sort of cultural ubermensch who will redeem our apostate nation with his sturdy work ethic and proletarian values, despite mountains and mountains of evidence to the contrary. Some perspective is needed here.

Why is it when the media talks about immigrants they only mean the illegal ones? What about the legal ones?

It sort of like the media talking about the Church being against stem cell research, not bothering to clarify and saying that the Church is against embryonic stem cell research but is a supporter of adult stem cell research.

 

[jwinch2]

Ye
I’m interested in hearing what you think that is. Does fraternal charity oblige us to utterly impoverish ourselves and our families and destroy what little remains of our cultural inheritance in a futile, fruitless, and impossible bid to give free jobs to everyone everywhere?

Again, I’m intrigued by the fact that the Church’s teachings on the duties of states to welcome the alien don’t exist in a vacuum. They coexist alongside other teachings about the rule of law, the common good, and the rights of workers. Yet these things get crammed down the memory hole when talking about illegal immigrants. Suddenly the only thing that matters is the immigrant, and suddenly everyone’s talking about him like he’s some sort of cultural ubermensch who will redeem our apostate nation with his sturdy work ethic and proletarian values, despite mountains and mountains of evidence to the contrary. Some perspective is needed here.

Well put.

 

[triumphguy]

Yep.

Well, I wouldn’t.

I’m interested in hearing what you think that is. Does fraternal charity oblige us to utterly impoverish ourselves and our families and destroy what little remains of our cultural inheritance in a futile, fruitless, and impossible bid to give free jobs to everyone everywhere?
Who said that? **that is not part of moral theology. And I never said it was.
**

If your people are dying of thirst, too, then no, we wouldn’t.

Well if we had water we wouldn’t be dying of thirst would we As you know I’m trying to establish a consistent ethic in the argument.

Again, I’m intrigued by the fact that the Church’s teachings on the duties of states to welcome the alien don’t exist in a vacuum. They coexist alongside other teachings about the rule of law, the common good, and the rights of workers. Yet these things get crammed down the memory hole when talking about illegal immigrants. Suddenly the only thing that matters is the immigrant, and suddenly everyone’s talking about him like he’s some sort of cultural ubermensch who will redeem our apostate nation with his sturdy work ethic and proletarian values, despite mountains and mountains of evidence to the contrary. Some perspective is needed here.

No-one is presenting this extreme position. No-one on this thread, or among the Bishops as far as I can see. Only you.

Oh, I agree, our immigration system needs looking into and needs some serious reform.

Now for the global warming scenario. This scenario would be more like the U.S illegally tapping into Canadian waters. Now if Canada dares complain that her laws were being violated we in the U.S.would claim that we do have every right to tap into your waters illegally and then we go and have the backing of the Catholic church to validate our position. Now let’s go back to topic. We have illegal immigrants who are coming over the border without regard to U.S. Laws and who are being exploited by greedy businesses. Now does the U.S. have no choice but to roll over and let her laws and right to sovereignty be threatened? Is it the moral high road to let illegal immigrants come over only to be exploited by businesses over here? Is there a happy medium where laws are respected and obeyed and worker dignity respected?

You bet. I know of a fruit orchard in Georgia that employs legal immigrants from Mexico and pays them a living wage. This is a family owned farm and the workers become a part of the family. Result, the legal workers from Mexico get paid and treated fairly and no laws are broken. So there is a way to respect both the U.S. laws and the dignity of the worker. It does not have to be either/or.

Now I wonder. Is it only the U.S. that is being pressured to accept illegal immigrants or is Canada also under pressure?

Yes, we have thousands of Americans sneaking over the border

As (I hope) you know we only share a Border with you guys so we don’t get the kind of numbers that you do.

But since Canada is so huge should we accept more migrants? Should we invite the “huddled masses” of wherever?

 

[Joe_5859]

In this debate, we need to always be careful not to lose sight of the dignity of the human person.

What exactly are we supposed to do with those who have come here illegally? Deport them all? Brand them with a scarlet letter ‘A’ (for “alien”)?

If you’ll permit me an imprecise analogy, think of unwed single mothers. Depending on the circumstances of course, they may have committed a sin (sex outside of marriage) which leaves them with a lasting consequence (a baby). But we do not abandon the mother and child because of how the child got here.

With illiegal immigrants, yes, they came over here illegally. Even if we assume that it was sinful of them to do that, that doesn’t change the fact that they’re still here now. So what do we do now to treat them with dignity? Do we forever ostracize and abandon them because of the decision they made at one moment in time? That doesn’t seem like the path to the best solution.

 

[JoeMike]

What exactly are we supposed to do with those who have come here illegally? Deport them all? Brand them with a scarlet letter ‘A’ (for “alien”)?

If you’ll permit me an imprecise analogy, think of unwed single mothers. Depending on the circumstances of course, they may have committed a sin (sex outside of marriage) which leaves them with a lasting consequence (a baby). But we do not abandon the mother and child because of how the child got here.

With illiegal immigrants, yes, they came over here illegally. Even if we assume that it was sinful of them to do that, that doesn’t change the fact that they’re still here now. So what do we do now to treat them with dignity? Do we forever ostracize and abandon them because of the decision they made at one moment in time? That doesn’t seem like the path to the best solution.

If we stop giving them freebies, the ones who don’t belong here will leave.

By “don’t belong” I mean those who came here to take advantage of ‘the system’ and live off of everyone else’s hard work.

This actually happened in Michigan (I think it was back in the 90s). They stopped the benefits and some 300,000 illegals packed up and left.

 

[Sarcelle]

No-one is presenting this extreme position. No-one on this thread, or among the Bishops as far as I can see. Only you.

Yes, we have thousands of Americans sneaking over the border

As (I hope) you know we only share a Border with you guys so we don’t get the kind of numbers that you do.

But since Canada is so huge should we accept more migrants? Should we invite the “huddled masses” of wherever?

If you want.

As for going over to Canada, I had the opportunity to visit Victoria in British Columbia where I had the chance to stop and smell the roses of Butchart Gardens.