I'm a former atheist. Ask me anything.

[yankee_doodle]

I rarely read through 6 pages of discussion but this has been interesting.
Langdell, it is wonderful to hear about your return to faith. I hope that the forum will provide a kind of community that will help you grow spiritually.

Reading Yankee’s comments has got me thinking. I would like to know why atheists stubbornly continue to treat us like we are stupid people who have abandoned intellect. This division between faith and reason is constantly stressed by them despite very good answers that state otherwise. For us Catholics faith and reason are not separated but go together. Our faith helps us understand things more deeply.

The following statement by Yankee has made me decide to post a comment here. It was a response to Crenfro about her atheist husband with a PhD. I quote: “*You have to keep in mind who you’re listening to when you ask people for advice. Your husband has a PhD in mathematics, meaning he’s among a very small class of people in terms of intellectual fortitude. It doesn’t make much sense seeking advice from people who aren’t nearly as smart as he is (because that advice will be inapplicable for a variety of reasons).” *

So Yankee, are you saying that people on the forum are not nearly as smart because you assume that we are all intellectually inferior to both Dr. Atheist and to you, who are an atheist for ‘intellectual reasons’? Just to let you know that I, a devout Catholic, also have a PhD (in political science). And as a member of a “very small class of people of intellectual fortitude” I would like to assure you that my faith is informed and reaffirmed by my intellect. As you clearly hold me in such great esteem may I suggest you follow my example as a fellow intellectual and renounce prejudice.

I acknowledge there are intelligent theists. However, you’re indoctrinated all the same (I suppose for a variety of reasons). Therefore, you won’t seriously consider rational and IMO decisive objections to religiosity.

For instance, when I elude to a fact like the Horus myth (virtually identical to the Jesus narrative insofar as its supernatural claims) predates Christianity by centuries, you will find some far fetched rationalization to sustain a “reasonable faith.” This is equally true when I point to the striking similarities between Mesopotamian mythology and Judaism.

Then there’s the metaphysical arguments, and the wide range of arguments from incredulity. Our DNA is irreducibly complex, therefore god. Then when I point to models that show intelligence can form from randomness, and hence the more supportable position is that our DNA is not irreducibly complex, religious pundits try and debunk empirical evidence supported by rigorous research subjected to standard peer review with pseudoscience.

Therefore, indeed highly intelligent people can be dumb with regards to religiosity. I’ve been debating on this site only for a few weeks.

 

[josie_L]

I rarely read through 6 pages of discussion but this has been interesting.
Langdell, it is wonderful to hear about your return to faith. I hope that the forum will provide a kind of community that will help you grow spiritually.

Reading Yankee’s comments has got me thinking. I would like to know why atheists stubbornly continue to treat us like we are stupid people who have abandoned intellect. This division between faith and reason is constantly stressed by them despite very good answers that state otherwise. For us Catholics faith and reason are not separated but go together. Our faith helps us understand things more deeply.

The following statement by Yankee has made me decide to post a comment here. It was a response to Crenfro about her atheist husband with a PhD. I quote: “*You have to keep in mind who you’re listening to when you ask people for advice. Your husband has a PhD in mathematics, meaning he’s among a very small class of people in terms of intellectual fortitude. It doesn’t make much sense seeking advice from people who aren’t nearly as smart as he is (because that advice will be inapplicable for a variety of reasons).” *

So Yankee, are you saying that people on the forum are not nearly as smart because you assume that we are all intellectually inferior to both Dr. Atheist and to you, who are an atheist for ‘intellectual reasons’? Just to let you know that I, a devout Catholic, also have a PhD (in political science). And as a member of a “very small class of people of intellectual fortitude” I would like to assure you that my faith is informed and reaffirmed by my intellect. As you clearly hold me in such great esteem may I suggest you follow my example as a fellow intellectual and renounce prejudice.

Hi Contra Mundum, I have a question to ask you, unrelated to this thread to some extent, how secularized is Scotland, I ask because we have a poster here by the username CharlesDarwin who’s from Scotland who states there are few who practice religion (especially those under 50)?

 

[josie_L]

I acknowledge there are intelligent theists. However, you’re indoctrinated all the same (I suppose for a variety of reasons). Therefore, you won’t seriously consider rational and IMO decisive objections to religiosity.

For instance, when I elude to a fact like the Horus myth (virtually identical to the Jesus narrative insofar as its supernatural claims) predates Christianity by centuries, you will find some far fetched rationalization to sustain a “reasonable faith.” This is equally true when I point to the striking similarities between Mesopotamian mythology and Judaism.

Then there’s the metaphysical arguments, and the wide range of arguments from incredulity. Our DNA is irreducibly complex, therefore god. Then when I point to models that show intelligence can form from randomness, and hence the more supportable position is that our DNA is not irreducibly complex, religious pundits try and debunk empirical evidence supported by rigorous research subjected to standard peer review with pseudoscience.

Therefore, indeed highly intelligent people can be dumb with regards to religiosity.

I believe “Shoewindow” (correct username???) debunked the whole similarity between Horus and Jesus in the “List of Common Fallacies of Atheists” thread, furthermore, we as Catholics believe in evolution.

 

[yankee_doodle]

golly, near death experiences, haunted houses … any other paranormal ghost stories you guys care to share?

How about this one, a ghost of a space alien

 

[yankee_doodle]

I believe “Shoewindow” (correct username???) debunked the whole similarity between Horus and Jesus in the “List of Common Fallacies of Atheists” thread, furthermore, we as Catholics believe in evolution.

what? The archeology on Horus is well settled (and has been subjected to rigorous peer review); but of course there’s always religious crackpots who will put misinformation out there to try and debunk reality. It just goes to show, some people will believe anything.

To quote Horus:

“My wrath will be turned against the enemy of my father Osiris and I will put him beneath my feet”

BTW Horus was even worshiped by the pre-pharaohnic rulers of Egypt (predating even the Moses narrative).

 

[josie_L]

what? The archeology is well settled (and has been subjected to rigorous peer review); but of course there’s always religious crackpots who will put misinformation out there to try and debunk reality. It just goes to show, some people will believe anything.

We are talking about the story of Horus and Jesus and their proposed commonality, why are you now mentioning archaelogy?

 

[yankee_doodle]

We are talking about the story of Horus and Jesus and their proposed commonality, why are you now mentioning archaelogy?

because that’s one of the central ways we’ve been able to learn about ancient Egypt. They wrote and carved hieroglyphics on stones, walls, pottery pieces, etc. We can decipher their language, date these artifacts, etc. In other words the history of religion is literally carved in stone.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Hi Josie,

I don’t have numbers to make any claims. I’m sure there are census results out there that could be of help and in case I find something I will let you know. In the recent years there has been a big number of Polish immigrants (many attend church) and that has caused quite an increase in church attendance. I have read somewhere that attendance in Catholic churches is higher than any other at the moment, but again, I have no stats to back this up for now.
In my expereince, there are plenty of young people who attend church in Scotland, judging from what I see at Mass. However, if compared to the US, Scotland and UK in general are definitely much more secular.

 

[josie_L]

because that’s one of the central ways we’ve been able to learn about ancient Egypt. They wrote and carved hieroglyphics on stones, walls, pottery pieces, etc. We can decipher their language, date these artifacts, etc. In other words the history of religion is literally carved in stone.

So how does this affect what I mentioned earlier, in that, the so-called similarities between Jesus and Horus are not so similar at all?

 

[josie_L]

Hi Josie,

I don’t have numbers to make any claims. I’m sure there are census results out there that could be of help and in case I find something I will let you know. In the recent years there has been a big number of Polish immigrants (many attend church) and that has caused quite an increase in church attendance. I have read somewhere that attendance in Catholic churches is higher than any other at the moment, but again, I have no stats to back this up for now.
In my expereince, there are plenty of young people who attend church in Scotland, judging from what I see at Mass. However, if compared to the US, Scotland and UK in general are definitely much more secular.

By the way, welcome to CAF, and thank you for your response, as I said earlier I was led to believe that there were few young people practicing the faith, but it’s good to know that it’s more than likely more than a few.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Thanks!

It is so refreshing to see young people be involved in church and witnessing to their faith. (I’m in my 30s so I guess that qualifies as being young-ish. Or maybe I’m in denial ). I wonder what age groups are most present of the forum.

 

[yankee_doodle]

So how does this affect what I mentioned earlier, in that, the so-called similarities between Jesus and Horus are not so similar at all?

man talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. OK let me explain this step by step:

1. We have this Jesus story alleging a god-man, who was born of a virgin (who herself was visited by an angel), died, and resurrected after three days (after descending into hell).
2. Archeologists have uncovered enormous amounts of information enabling us to reconstruct ancient Egyptian history (in fairly good detail).
3. One of the historical artifacts uncovered by archeologists was the mythology of Horus.
4. This mythological figure, Horus, who we discovered was worshiped even before the pharaohnic period (incidentally meaning prior to Moses), was also alleged to be a god-man, born of a virgin (who herself was visited by an angel), died, and resurrected after three days (after descending into hell).
5. While there were many versions of Horus worship, the above similarities are generally accepted in the historical and archeological community (in other words, we know Horus was painted as a god-man, born of a virgin who was visited by an angel, died, descended into hell, and resurrected three days later; and this myth pre-dated Christianity by centuries, even millennium). Interestingly, Horus mythology is also categorized within a class of mythology commonly referred to as millennial mythology (because these ancient Egyptian pagans believed Horus would one day return and rule for a 1,000 year period).
6. Therefore, whether or not Jesus was a historical person (which I don’t necessarily dispute) it’s obvious that these supernatural elements of the Horus myth were plugged into the Jesus narrative.

I make the same argument with regard to Mesopotamian mythology and Judaism (and the same type of facts support my conclusions).

 

[jesuspsr]

Thanks!

It is so refreshing to see young people be involved in church and witnessing to their faith. (I’m in my 30s so I guess that qualifies as being young-ish. Or maybe I’m in denial ). I wonder what age groups are most present of the forum.

Hello everyone.
start a thread lets find out:thumbsup:
God bless
jesus g

 

[josie_L]

Thanks!

It is so refreshing to see young people be involved in church and witnessing to their faith. (I’m in my 30s so I guess that qualifies as being young-ish. Or maybe I’m in denial ). I wonder what age groups are most present of the forum.

No, you’re not in denial as I’m in my 30s as well (33 going on 34 this coming week). God bless.

 

[josie_L]

man talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. OK let me explain this step by step:

This is you :banghead: and this is me. Good luck breaking it.

 

[josie_L]

1. We have this Jesus story alleging a god-man, who was born of a virgin (who herself was visited by an angel), died, and resurrected after three days (after descending into hell).

True

1. Archeologists have uncovered enormous amounts of information enabling us to reconstruct ancient Egyptian history (in fairly good detail).

Sources please.

1. One of the historical artifacts uncovered by archeologists was the mythology of Horus.

Ok, I believe you.

1. This mythological figure, Horus, who we discovered was worshiped even before the pharaohnic period (incidentally meaning prior to Moses), was also alleged to be a god-man, born of a virgin (who herself was visited by an angel), died, and resurrected after three days (after descending into hell).

Sources please.

1. While there were many versions of Horus worship, the above similarities are generally accepted in the historical and archeological community (in other words, we know Horus was painted as a god-man, born of a virgin who was visited by an angel, died, descended into hell, and resurrected three days later; and this myth pre-dated Christianity by centuries, even millennium). Interestingly, Horus mythology is also categorized within a class of mythology commonly referred to as millennial mythology (because these ancient Egyptian pagans believed Horus would one day return and rule for a 1,000 year period).

I don’t think so.

1. Therefore, whether or not Jesus was a historical person (which I don’t necessarily dispute) it’s obvious that these supernatural elements of the Horus myth were plugged into the Jesus narrative.

No it’s not obvious.

I make the same argument with regard to Mesopotamian mythology and Judaism (and the same type of facts support my conclusions).

You probably made the same mistakes you mean.

The textual and mythological materials relating to Horus are extremely rich, comprising hymns, mortuary texts, ritual texts, dramatic/theological texts, stories, the Old Coptic and Greek so-called magical papyri, and the most complete ancient exposition of the Osiris narrative, Plutarch’s De Iside et Osiride (in Latin translation). In characteristic Egyptian fashion, many of the hymns, mortuary, and ritual texts incorporated substantial narrative material or are taken from narrative, although they are not comprehensive, consecutive myths per se. In addition to Plutarch’s account in Greek, the most substantial sources for the Osiris-Isis-Horus cycle include the following (see Oxford Encyclopedia, vol 2, “Horus” p. 121ff):

the Memphite Theology or Shabaqo Stone (generally dated as late as the New Kingdom, c. 1540-1070 BC);
the Mystery Play of the Succession;
the Pyramid Texts (from the late Old Kingdom, c. 2575-2150 BC);
the Coffin Texts, especially Spell 148;
the Great Osiris hymn in the Louvre;
the Late Egyptian Contendings of Horus and Seth;
the Metternich Stela and other cippus texts;
the Ptolemaic Myth of Horus at Edfu (also known as the Triumph of Horus);

These texts take us with a number of variations and contrasting perspectives, from the conception and birth of Horus, through his childhood hidden in the marshes, his protection by Isis, his conflict with Seth and his followers, and his succession as legitimate king. The “Myth [or Triumph] of Horus” is preserved in the Temple of Edfu, inscribed on the inner faces of the east and west enclosure walls. Previously no complete translation of the various texts which compose it appeared in any language, though the actual texts and reliefs have since been long published by Naville, Textes relatifs au Mythe d’Horus recueillis dans le Temple d’Edfou (Geneva, 1870), then in the magnificent edition of Chassinat, Le Temple d’Edfou (Cairo, 1928-1934), and later in scholarly and popular works by Dieter Kurth, e.g. The Temple of Edfu: a guide by an ancient Egyptian priest (Cairo, 2004). The myth comprises five texts (see Blackman / Lloyd, Gods, Priests, and Men, p. 255ff, in articles by H.W. Fairman), which are:

The Legend of the Winged Disk. The chief actors are Horus of Behdet and Seth. Re and Thoth provide a running commentary and numerous somewhat tedious puns which detract from the flow and interest of the narrative. The language is stilted and formal, and somewhat restricted in vocabulary and forms of expression.

The story of a fight between Horus, son of Isis (who is assisted by Horus of Behdet), and Seth. This portion follows immediately after A.

A dramatized version of the exploits of Horus which was enacted at his festival (not worded in the form of a connected story). After texts referring to the ten harpoons with which Horus attacked his enemy, come songs by the Royal Children and by the princesses of Upper and Lower Egypt together with the women of Mendes (Pe and Dep), and finally two versions of the dismemberment of Seth and the distribution of the parts of his body among various gods and cities.

Seth, son of Nut, assumes the form of a red hippopotamus and goes to Elephantine. Horus, son of Isis, pursues him and overtakes him near Edfu, and after the ensuing fight Seth flees northward and Horus assumes the office of his father.

Horus is mentioned as lord of Lower Egypt, living at Memphis, and Seth as lord of Upper Egypt, living in Shas-hetep. Horus and Seth fight, the one in the form of a youth, the other as a red donkey. Horus finally triumphs and cuts off the leg of Seth. This story is written in a pronounced Late-Egyptian idiom.

bringyou.to/apologetics/HORUS.htm

p.s This cite is fantastic it has many references which can help you to understand how wrong you are in believing Jesus’s story was based on the mythical Horus.

 

[yankee_doodle]

p.s This cite is fantastic it has many references which can help you to understand how wrong you are in believing Jesus’s story was based on the mythical Horus.

no it’s not, it’s a Christian apologetics site. Here’s Origen, writing about Jesus’ divine birth, trying to explain away how come it’s so similar to all the other divine births in ancient mythology:

*For some have thought fit, not in regard to ancient and heroic narratives, but in regard to events of very recent occurrence, to relate as a possible thing that Plato was the son of Amphictione, Ariston being prevented from having marital intercourse with his wife until she had given birth to him with whom she was pregnant by Apollo. And yet these are veritable fables, which have led to the invention of such stories concerning a man whom they regarded as possessing greater wisdom and power than the multitude, and as having received the beginning of his corporeal substance from better and diviner elements than others, because they thought that this was appropriate to persons who were too great to be human beings.

Origen, Against Celsus, Book 1, Chapter 37*

God’s who had divine fathers and virgin mothers included: Romulus, Perseus, Danae, Malinippe, Auge, and Antiope.

[3] … According to Eratosthenes, Olympias, when she sent Alexander on his way to lead his great expedition to the East, confided to him and to him alone the secret of his conception and urged him to show himself worthy of his divine parentage. . .
[Plutarch, Life of Alexander, Chapters 2 - 3]

I can go on and on with this stuff … but anyways.

 

[josie_L]

no it’s not, it’s a Christian apologetics site. Here’s Origen, writing about Jesus’ divine birth, trying to explain away how come it’s so similar to all the other divine births in ancient mythology:

*For some have thought fit, not in regard to ancient and heroic narratives, but in regard to events of very recent occurrence, to relate as a possible thing that Plato was the son of Amphictione, Ariston being prevented from having marital intercourse with his wife until she had given birth to him with whom she was pregnant by Apollo. And yet these are veritable fables, which have led to the invention of such stories concerning a man whom they regarded as possessing greater wisdom and power than the multitude, and as having received the beginning of his corporeal substance from better and diviner elements than others, because they thought that this was appropriate to persons who were too great to be human beings.

Origen, Against Celsus, Book 1, Chapter 37*

God’s who had divine fathers and virgin mothers included: Romulus, Perseus, Danae, Malinippe, Auge, and Antiope.

[3] … According to Eratosthenes, Olympias, when she sent Alexander on his way to lead his great expedition to the East, confided to him and to him alone the secret of his conception and urged him to show himself worthy of his divine parentage. . .
[Plutarch, Life of Alexander, Chapters 2 - 3]

I can go on and on with this stuff … but anyways.

Even if it’s a christian apologetics cite it has tons of references to books, websites, historians and the like, please won’t you just take a look.

 

[humble_maid]

So Yankee, are you saying that people on the forum are not nearly as smart because you assume that we are all intellectually inferior to both Dr. Atheist and to you, who are an atheist for ‘intellectual reasons’? Just to let you know that I, a devout Catholic, also have a PhD (in political science). And as a member of a “very small class of people of intellectual fortitude” I would like to assure you that my faith is informed and reaffirmed by my intellect. As you clearly hold me in such great esteem may I suggest you follow my example as a fellow intellectual and renounce prejudice.

Thank you so much Contra Mundum for pointing this out; when one uses reason, knowledge and WISDOM, to assess situations and come upon a definitive decision that he/she solely possesses, one cannot assume that person has been indoctrinated. In fact it only demonstrates that reason lies in true religion.

God Bless.

 

[humble_maid]

I would like to point out that the greatest learning institutions were endorsed by the Vatican itself back in the medieval period. To say that secular learned people solely possess intelligence is prejudice by far and to make the assertion that religious people cannot be intelligent or as intelligent is an offense.

"Studium Generale is the old name for a medieval university which was registered as an institution of international excellence by the Holy Roman Empire. Most of the early Studia Generalia were found in Italy, France, England, Spain and Portugal, and these were considered the most prestigious places of learning in Europe. The Vatican continues to designate many new Universities as Studia Generalia, here are some examples:

As early as the 13th century, scholars from a Studium Generale were encouraged to give lecture courses at other institutes across Europe and to share documents, and this led to the current academic culture seen in modern European universities."

The nine universities generally considered as Studia Generalia in the 13th Century were:

University of Bologna
University of Paris
University of Oxford
University of Cambridge
University of Montpellier
University of Palencia
University of Reggio Emilia
University of Vicenza
University of Salerno (uncertain)
University of Coimbra (founded in Lisbon in 1290)
Both theological and secular Universities were registered. This list quickly grew as new Universities were founded throughout Europe. Many of these universities received formal confirmation of their status as Studia Generalia towards the end of the 13th Century by way of papal bull, along with a host of newer universities
References
Haskins, George L (1941) ‘The University of Oxford and the Ius ubique docendi,’ The English Historical Review, pp 281-292.

God Bless Everyone and the Peace of Christ Jesus be with you.