I'm against church shopping

[LRThunder]

There is something very Protestant about shopping for a parish. The problem rests with those who seemingly continue to shop. The first problem arises and they are off again typically because if the pride and not the Mass at the parish they are leaving.

In my Byzantine-Ruthenian parish, we received new “missalettes” some time ago to reflect the Changes in the Divine Liturgy – most of it reverting back to more ancient practices. A few people left to their next parish because they believed THEY were the arbiters of what is “better.” I feel sorry for those people.

With all due respect, if the Church has no problem with Catholics going to whatever parish they want, then it’s nobody’s business why somebody goes to a certain parish or even “parish shops.”

 

[Newbie2]

I notice a lot of people around here advocating switching to another (Catholic) church in order to get the right pastor, liturgical style, CCD, outreach programs, etc.

I just want to go on record that I disagree with this for several reasons, which I’ll list.

1. I believe in doing things locally as a general rule of living. I think it strengthens local communities.

Valid reason, I agree.

1. I think commuting a longer distance to go to church is wasteful of time and gasoline.

Assuming that a different parish is further away than one’s “home” parish…that’s not always the case. Methinks that if one is not being spiritually fed at mass, for whatever reason, and IS at a different parish…well, is one’s spiritual health and well-being worth extra time and $$?

1. I think the pre-Vatican 2 rule of enrollment in ones geographically closest parish fostered a stronger local church

Guideline, rather than a rule, eh? Stronger how?

1. I think our desire to church shop is a symptom of our consumeristic mobile society, from which I wish to get away from.

Disagree. Methinks it’s a matter of finding a parish that suits one’s personality and spirituality.

1. I think Sunday should be a day of rest, not a day to commute a long distance, go shopping, or do anything that creates work for others.

Pharisee!

1. I think it fosters division within the church.

How, and what do you mean by “division”?

 

[ethelzguy]

With all due respect, if the Church has no problem with Catholics going to whatever parish they want, then it’s nobody’s business why somebody goes to a certain parish or even “parish shops.”

Church Shopping, in my opinion, is nothing more than thinly veiled Protestantism. I am acquainted with several folks who have been “members” of every parish within 40 miles of here. They are never pleased.

“Not reverent enough”, “Not Catholic enough”, “Too Liberal”, “The priest is too administrative and not pastoral enough”…

On and on it goes. I personally liked the good old days of boundaries. It kept people and their tastes blended well. Now people gravitate to different parishes based on their likes, which in my mind only spurs more division amongst us.

 

[ethelzguy]

LovesMary says:
6) I think it fosters division within the church.

I agree.

“Freedom to Choose” parishes, leads to division because folks with different tastes or agendas tend to cluster with one another, instead of keeping us all blended together.

 

[lovesMary]

Church Shopping, in my opinion, is nothing more than thinly veiled Protestantism. I am acquainted with several folks who have been “members” of every parish within 40 miles of here. They are never pleased.

“Not reverent enough”, “Not Catholic enough”, “Too Liberal”, “The priest is too administrative and not pastoral enough”…

On and on it goes. I personally liked the good old days of boundaries. It kept people and their tastes blended well. Now people gravitate to different parishes based on their likes, which in my mind only spurs more division amongst us.

You said it better than I. That’s what I meant, thanks.

I just think that people should primarily support and attend their local parish.

Originally parishes were centers of activity for neighborhoods, where people knew each other, lived and worked together. In some parts of the country, a parish is another name for county.

I think in N America, people have lost that sense of community and don’t even know their neighbors. I’ve seen good people leave our parish after getting mad at the priest, or getting mad at some other influential person in the parish. So, they drive 20 miles away, it seems out of spite or pride.

It seems wasteful and self indulgent to me. I think it would be better to swallow ones pride and stay in ones parish.

 

[tessi]

We tried, but the pastor

1. Continued to give blessings, “In the name of the Father, and the mother and the Holy Spirit.”
2. Continued to quote from liberal, dissenting sources in his homilies.
3. Was known to change the Gospel reading so it would coincide w/ songs the protestant song leader wanted to sing
4. Repeatedly told us in homilies that everyone would go to Heaven, but Catholics would have more fun when they got there.
5. Told crude jokes in his homilies (“Soneone asked me if it was OK to have sex before Mass. I told them yes, as long as they don’t block the isle.”)

We could not, in good conscience, raise our kids in that parish.

I agree. It’s not about changing parishes to find one that suites me best, it’s about avoiding a church where the abuse is a normal practice.

 

[majick275]

well in a big city there are many parishes nearby. there isn’t much sense of “community” in any of them as they are all so huge in numbers. the reason to shop is necessity in my opinion. we tried the closest two. there is no kneeling at any time. one doesn’t even have kneelers. both have a n army of laypeople running all over the sanctuary to administer communion. liturgical dance…nuff said on that. music ministries that act like a vegas nightclub with everyone clapping along. priests who give homilies that are in contradiction to the catechism. what is taught is WRONG. the liturgical abuse is high and traditional beliefs are openly mocked as relics of the past that we need to “get over”. confession? yeah they have an hour once a week and sometimes a priest stays the whole hour.

i drive 5-10 minutes more to experience confessions before every mass. daily mass. ordained men distributing communion. rails with people kneeling for communion. reverent masses word for word in compliance with the GIRM. perpetual adoration, my son gets to serve as an altar boy every sunday (his choice not required). my children experience teaching in accordance with the magisterium, reverent masses and committed priests who actually believe catholic dogma. vocations are encouraged here.

before i moved here i could handle some “variance” because i had not been exposed to significant liturgical abuse. i also hadn’t been exposed to “old fashioned” mass. ( we are converts) here the choice is pretty black and white. by the book conservative parish or far left field new age parish. i don’t feel it’s right for my family to just go with the flow and accept what the closer parish is doing.

 

[nicolep]

I haven’t done any church shopping. I’m at a parish almost 20 miles away because I don’t want to church shop.

When I converted to Catholicism, I lived close to my current parish. It was my local parish.

Then I moved to the complete other side of the city. I didn’t want to change parishes even though there is one less than two minutes away. I am dug in at my current parish. I am the Pro-Life Committee Chairperson and an active member of the Christian Social Action Commission. I attend daily Mass. The staff and priests know me by name (in a parish with 2,000 households that’s a big deal to me). I wouldn’t be able to attend daily mass if I didn’t go to my current parish. I wouldn’t have time to get from work to the local parish. I work about five minutes from parish although I live 30 minutes or so away. I’m more often on this side of town than by my house.

I don’t believe that I have made the parish in my local community weaker, but I have made my current parish stronger.

The sad fact is that this country stepped outside the local community some time ago. I cannot work in my community. I cannot go to the grocery store in my community. Except for the Catholic Church, everything is 15 minutes away.

So, I understand your argument. In a perfect world, I would agree. There are too many circumstances that make it impossible. Now, there are people who seem to change parishes every year or so because of small things. I’m much more against frequent changing.

 

[NPC]

Just because one does not attend Mass in their parish church does not necessarily that they are contributing to a breakdown in community. Most parishes have several organisations which any parishioner can take part in such as St Vincent de Paul, an Apostolic Workers association, various fund-raising initiatives, etc. In Ireland (especially rural Ireland) the parish is inextricably linked to Gaelic Games - Ireland’s national sports, & this is one place where community spirit is especially evident. Community ties in the parish are created at least as much outside of Mass as they are during the 45 minutes of Sunday Mass - in fact, in Ireland at least, I would say more so because customarily people leave straight after Mass and do not meet with their fellow parishioners. One could argue too that in the context of Mass the community which should be at the fore is the entire Catholic community throughout the world who are united by the celebration of the Eucharist.

I would argue against having to register with your local parish. You might think that this will create a stronger community, but in Ireland up until relatively recently the parish priest would know every member of his parish and expect to see them at Sunday Mass - this created a community alright, but it was a community of fear. People feared their priests because if the priest did not see you at Mass on Sunday, you would be publicly named and shamed from the pulpit the following week… I know it probably wouldn’t quite get to such a state in the present time, but I am not in favour of this ‘Big Brother is watching you’ system where the priest could keep tabs on his parishioners. Also, please don’t persist in insulting Protestants as well as Catholics who ‘shop around’ so as they may get the best spiritual nourishment they can, because this should be aim of everyone, and if they are not getting the best they are absolutely entitled to look elsewhere.

 

[Cat]

I am wondering what will change as gas prices get higher and higher. You may not have the option of commuting if a trip to church costs so much that you can’t afford to feed your family or pay for needed medical care.

I am very fortunate to live in a diocese in which the bishop is conservative and orthodox, and enforces reverent and correct NOs, encourages TLMs, and at the same time, embraces “new” things e.g., Life Teen Mass. It is heavenly here!

I actually live within walking distance of my parish. If we had to, we could walk it.

If I lived in a diocese where the bishop allowed widespread abuse, I would seriously consider moving. With gas over $4.00/gal, and predictions of prices as high as $7.00 to $10.00/gal, you may eventually have to choose between attending the Mass of your choice and paying for the material necessities of life.

I suppose a family could get a second job (paper route?) to earn the “Mass Gas money.” But wow–just what we all need–something else to take away from the precious time that we spend with our families.

I would first appeal to the diocese to correct the abuses, but if no response came, I would move. Seriously.

I’m not saying it’s easy, but it surely won’t be easy to spend a major hunk of family income just driving to Mass. Wouldn’t it be better to live somewhere where you didn’t have to depend on a car to get to Mass, and where the Mass was correct and edifying?

Besides, how can you get involved with a parish that you can only afford to drive to once a week? I realize that Mass is all we need, but it sure is nice to be able to put your kids in CCD, get your teens in the youth group, join a Bible study, help out with the parish gardening club, etc.

If I could not move, then I would be looking around my old (abusive) parish for people to car-pool with on that drive to the good Mass.

 

[EasterJoy]

The ideal is to be the kind of Catholics who are willing to serve God whereever God asks us to go. We shouldn’t choose our parish for personal reasons, but discern in prayer where God wants us to be and what we should be doing where He’s asked us to go. We should not just attend Mass where we like, but should put ourselves into a parish where we can be a member in the fullest sense possible, within the demands of our individual vocations. For this reason, the logical place to start our search is our geographical parish, or at least one that is just as close. We should consider these openly and without setting ourselves up as the judges of others.

Having said that, God doesn’t ask us to be every saint. He asks us to be open to be the one single saint He made us to be. He gave us particular gifts and a particular call. We aren’t all cut out to bloom in any soil whatsoever.

If we find ourselves in a parish in which we are unrelentingly critical of our brothers and sisters, where the common spiritual life has little good effect on us and where we have little good to offer the common spiritual life, we would do well to consider whether we wouldn’t do better for everyone concerned by going elsewhere, if God has seen fit to give us other options. There is nothing wrong with that.

I think that working together in parish life with the same people we go to Mass with at least on Sundays and Holy Days is the ideal. A living parish, like a marriage, takes time together and especially prayer and worship together. Nevertheless, there is sometimes a greater good to be accomplished by working with one group and worshiping with another. As long as one is humble about it, not considering himself or herself the one “complete Catholic” in both groups, that can be the best way to go, sometimes.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Once again- It is not an abuse to go to ANY parish for Mass to meet one’s obligation. It has NEVER been an abuse. Canon 1248 speciifcally allows it.

Whether or not geographical boundaries are observed is up to the bishop. Many bishops in the US do not observe them, but post them. As long as a bishop does not require them, Catholics are not doing anything wrong when they register at the parish of their choice.

People can rattle their reasons all they like for keeping geographic boundaries, but that doesn’t make it true, and it doesn’t make it so.

 

[EasterJoy]

Once again- It is not an abuse to go to ANY parish for Mass to meet one’s obligation. It has NEVER been an abuse. Canon 1248 speciifcally allows it.

Whether or not geographical boundaries are observed is up to the bishop. Many bishops in the US do not observe them, but post them. As long as a bishop does not require them, Catholics are not doing anything wrong when they register at the parish of their choice.

People can rattle their reasons all they like for keeping geographic boundaries, but that doesn’t make it true, and it doesn’t make it so.

That something isn’t an abuse, per se, or isn’t a sin coming out of the gate doesn’t automatically make it the best choice.

You’re right, though: the bishops have rightly discerned that strictly enforcing geographical boundaries isn’t in the best interest of either individual Catholics, individual parishes, or their diocese as a whole. There are reasons that your local parish might rightly get first consideration, but those reasons are not binding, and that is also for a good reason.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

That something isn’t an abuse, per se, or isn’t a sin coming out of the gate doesn’t automatically make it the best choice. I never said that. I said canon law allows for it.

You’re right, though: the bishops have rightly discerned that strictly enforcing geographical boundaries isn’t in the best interest of either individual Catholics, individual parishes, or their diocese as a whole. There are reasons that your local parish might rightly get first consideration, but those reasons are not binding, and that is also for a good reason.
Exactly correct. And people who want something to be true, and keep repeating it, don’t make that something true.

 

[EasterJoy]

Originally Posted by EasterJoy
That something isn’t an abuse, per se, or isn’t a sin coming out of the gate doesn’t automatically make it the best choice. I never said that. I said canon law allows for it.

You’re right, though: the bishops have rightly discerned that strictly enforcing geographical boundaries isn’t in the best interest of either individual Catholics, individual parishes, or their diocese as a whole. There are reasons that your local parish might rightly get first consideration, but those reasons are not binding, and that is also for a good reason.
Exactly correct. And people who want something to be true, and keep repeating it, don’t make that something true.

OK, but consider your thesis: “As long as a bishop does not require them, Catholics are not doing anything wrong when they register at the parish of their choice.”

Just as a general rule, we absolutely can “do wrong” without having done anything that violates the requirements of the bishop in our diocese.

For instance, the world is full of people we might marry without violating canon law or the marriage requirements in our diocese. That doesn’t mean that we can’t sin by choosing to marry someone that canon law allows us to marry. We are bound to practice discernment in our choices.

Again, I don’t mean to imply that you would say otherwise. By my reading, you are only saying that one does not sin simply by having chosen a parish other than one’s geographical parish. IMHO, that point is absolutely correct!

 

[ethelzguy]

We shouldn’t choose our parish for personal reasons,

Bingo

Isn’t that what ‘Church Shoppping’ is all about? Looking for a Church or Priest who “does things the way I think they should be done, in accordance with MY interpretation of Church documents”?

 

[Joe_5859]

Church Shopping, in my opinion, is nothing more than thinly veiled Protestantism. I am acquainted with several folks who have been “members” of every parish within 40 miles of here. They are never pleased.

“Not reverent enough”, “Not Catholic enough”, “Too Liberal”, “The priest is too administrative and not pastoral enough”…

On and on it goes. I personally liked the good old days of boundaries. It kept people and their tastes blended well. Now people gravitate to different parishes based on their likes, which in my mind only spurs more division amongst us.

I understand your point, and this can no doubt be said of some people who “parish shop”. But I have also witnessed the opposite.

In my diocese, there are parish closings and priest movings (which is pretty much the norm everywhere nowadays). Many people are so “attached” to their “community parish” or their current pastor that they are openly hostile to the bishop about it. It’s so bad at times that people write nasty letters about the bishop in the secular newspapers. So much for obedience.

This, IMO, is a “protestant” mentality. Rather than viewing the Church as universal, they cannot see beyond their own parish boundaries.

I think we have to avoid both extremes. It can certainly be a worthy enterprise to stay and try to be a postive influence in your parish. But if I went to some of the parishes described by other posters, there is no way I could, in good conscience, raise my children in such a parish. What would it do to their view of the priesthood if I constantly have to correct the homilies to them after Mass?

It’s also important to keep in mind that the Church is not a democracy. Our pastors are our spiritual fathers, for better or worse, like it or not. If a priest is “out there” with views that clearly contradict Church teaching, many times there’s not much we can do about it. We can talk to him about it and report it to the bishop, but we can’t force him to give better homilies or follow the GIRM or to allow us to be the DRE.

 

[nicolep]

Bingo

Isn’t that what ‘Church Shoppping’ is all about? Looking for a Church or Priest who “does things the way I think they should be done, in accordance with MY interpretation of Church documents”?

By that rationale, I should leave the parish I’ve attended since I converted and attend the parish closest to me. Then, I would only be able to attend Mass on Sunday. I wouldn’t be able to devote the same amount of time to the other parish either. How does that make either community stronger? I wouldn’t be able to sit on any parish committees. I wouldn’t be able to go to daily Mass. I would be a parishioner that shows up on Sunday and otherwise doesn’t participate.

The parish should be a personal decision. However, it should be for the right personal decision. If I could move closer to my current parish, I would. It’s not possible though. It’s not always as cut and dry as you’re making it seem.

 

[NPC]

The church one attends should most certainly be a personal decision, but a decision taken with regard to how one can best worship God. No one here is questioning the validity of one Mass from the next, but the fact is that the manner in which one prays (or indeed that they’re able to pray) often depends on the style of the liturgy, the church building, the general atmosphere, etc. Personally, I find it hard to use much ‘modern’ church music as an aid to my prayer - I find that, for me, Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony are better at helping me focus my mind on God. As I said in my first post, I find the atmosphere in my parish to be a bit too informal and the cathedral where I do attend Mass is quite a contrast to it. On the other hand, I’m sure there are many who prefer the atmosphere in my parish church - my parents don’t like going to Mass in the cathedral, for example. Most people only spend 45 minutes per week developing their relationship with God through the Mass. It should be quality time, and people should ensure that it is quality time with God - if that means shopping around a bit, then so be it.

 

[valient_Lucy]

I think you bring up some excellent points, but I do think that there are some people who, after much prayer and reflection, have decided to switch parishes when faced with horrible abuses, like some of which have been posted on this thread. This becomes especially difficult when there are children involved, who may face a truly abusive parish with a heterodox pastor. I don’t know if that is necessarily “church shopping” as much as parents doing their duty to raise their children in the Faith, and protecting them from corrupting influences.