I'm against church shopping

[ethelzguy]

The church one attends should most certainly be a personal decision, but a decision taken with regard to how one can best worship God. No one here is questioning the validity of one Mass from the next, but the fact is that the manner in which one prays (or indeed that they’re able to pray) often depends on the style of the liturgy, the church building, the general atmosphere, etc. Personally, I find it hard to use much ‘modern’ church music as an aid to my prayer - I find that, for me, Gregorian Chant and Sacred Polyphony are better at helping me focus my mind on God. As I said in my first post, I find the atmosphere in my parish to be a bit too informal and the cathedral where I do attend Mass is quite a contrast to it. On the other hand, I’m sure there are many who prefer the atmosphere in my parish church - my parents don’t like going to Mass in the cathedral, for example. Most people only spend 45 minutes per week developing their relationship with God through the Mass. It should be quality time, and people should ensure that it is quality time with God - if that means shopping around a bit, then so be it.

But this is exactly what I’m getting at. Some people gravitate to THIS parish because it’s more traditional, while others gravitate to THAT parish because it’s more modern…as this occurs over a period of time, you finally get to the point where you have two groups of people pointing at each other yelling “schismatic”!!

This is also why I agree with rotating priests around every 5-6 years. It keeps “ruts” from taking root, too much extreme one direction or another. In some parishes, the pastor may stay many years or even for life, but the associate priests/vicars get moved around. Keep the homilies fresh, keep quirks from getting too entrenched. Or as the rednecks say, “keep it between the white lines”…

 

[lovesMary]

I’ve really enjoyed reading all the different perspectives; There have been some excellent points made on all sides. There are definately many different scenarios. I agree, it’s not the same, depending on the situation.

 

[ethelzguy]

I think you bring up some excellent points, but I do think that there are some people who, after much prayer and reflection, have decided to switch parishes when faced with horrible abuses, like some of which have been posted on this thread. This becomes especially difficult when there are children involved, who may face a truly abusive parish with a heterodox pastor. I don’t know if that is necessarily “church shopping” as much as parents doing their duty to raise their children in the Faith, and protecting them from corrupting influences.

But, do you really do your children service within the faith, when you teach them that if you don’t like this priest, just head on over to another parish? Does that not sow the seeds of Protestantism?

Don’t forget, we all have the opportunity to teach our children and grandchildren at home as well. Don’t lay it all at the feet of your priest on Sunday morning.

 

[Brendan]

But, do you really do your children service within the faith, when you teach them that if you don’t like this priest, just head on over to another parish? Does that not sow the seeds of Protestantism?

For personal dislike no, but when a priest is the one being Protestant, by not following the published rubrics, it rather important to make sure that the children understand that we follow Rome, and if Fr. wants to do things that Rome doesn’t want done, then we still follow Rome.

Don’t forget, we all have the opportunity to teach our children and grandchildren at home as well. Don’t lay it all at the feet of your priest on Sunday morning.

It does not good to try and teach the children about obediece to the Church all week long, and then have a priest try and undermine that on Sundays.

 

[benedictgal]

But, do you really do your children service within the faith, when you teach them that if you don’t like this priest, just head on over to another parish? Does that not sow the seeds of Protestantism?

Don’t forget, we all have the opportunity to teach our children and grandchildren at home as well. Don’t lay it all at the feet of your priest on Sunday morning.

However, when pastors and parishes are being blatantly disobedient to the norms and prescriptions of the Church, then that is a far worse thing (that resembles “protestantism”).

If a pastor and/or parish is not faithful to the Church, especially where the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is concerned, then, it is best to follow what Jesus noted: turn around walk out and shake the dust from your sandals. This does not mean leaving the Church; it means that you are going to another parish that is faithful to Christ and His Church.

 

[ethelzguy]

So, it still boils down to the laity determining what they want out of the Church in general and the Mass in particular…

Where’s John Kennedy when I need him…

 

[nicolep]

I’ve really enjoyed reading all the different perspectives; There have been some excellent points made on all sides. There are definately many different scenarios. I agree, it’s not the same, depending on the situation.

I agree with you. It has been nice to participate in a thread that hasn’t turned into an argument.

 

[benedictgal]

So, it still boils down to the laity determining what they want out of the Church in general and the Mass in particular…

Where’s John Kennedy when I need him…

No, it boils down to whether or not the pastor and/or parish is faithful to the norms and rubrics of the Church. Every Catholic has the right to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated according to the rites, rubrics and norms prescribed by the Church. If a pastor and/or parish is not doing so, and, if they refuse to correct the situation, then one is not obligated to remain in such a place and should be free to go to another parish where the Church is respected and obeyed.

 

[NPC]

…as this occurs over a period of time, you finally get to the point where you have two groups of people pointing at each other yelling “schismatic”!!

Seriously? I’ve never seen anything so drastic happen, and as I said, no one on this thread is questioning the validity of the Mass whether it be in the context of a more traditional celebration or a more modern one. Certainly, rotating priests is a good idea (lest they get too comfortable!), but the orthodoxy of the priest is only one out of a whole list of reasons why a person may or may not choose to go to a certain church. There have been at least three parish priests in my parish since I moved here, however I simply have never found there to be a prayerful atmosphere in the church. That could be because it’s a young parish and hence there are a lot of young kids making noise, or it could be partly due to the physical structure - a round post-Vatican II church which I am simply not a fan of. I once heard a priest say “Pray the way you can, not the way you can’t” - at the time I wasn’t very happy about what he was saying because of the context in which he said it, which I shall not go into now - but when it comes to the Mass, while not questioning the validity of one over another, I think this is a good guiding principle.

 

[ethelzguy]

No, it boils down to whether or not the pastor and/or parish is faithful to the norms and rubrics of the Church. Every Catholic has the right to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated according to the rites, rubrics and norms prescribed by the Church. If a pastor and/or parish is not doing so, and, if they refuse to correct the situation, then one is not obligated to remain in such a place and should be free to go to another parish where the Church is respected and obeyed.

But we have (on countless other threads) established that first, the word “abuse” is abused itself. Second, we can’t even agree on what constitutes “abuse”.

For some, Communion standing in the hand is “abuse”. For some a guitar at Mass is “abuse”. For others, hymns out of Glory and Praise or Gather constitutes “abuse”. For yet others, female altar servers constitutes “abuse”.

Packing up your moppets and taking them across town just creates division. If there are two parishes in the same town, and they are vastly different, how did they get that way to begin with? Obviously from people Church shopping.

Then of course, there’s the issue of our “rights” again…

Where’s John Kennedy when I need him?

 

[hasikelee]

But we have (on countless other threads) established that first, the word “abuse” is abused itself. Second, we can’t even agree on what constitutes “abuse”.

For some, Communion standing in the hand is “abuse”. For some a guitar at Mass is “abuse”. For others, hymns out of Glory and Praise or Gather constitutes “abuse”. For yet others, female altar servers constitutes “abuse”.

Packing up your moppets and taking them across town just creates division. If there are two parishes in the same town, and they are vastly different, how did they get that way to begin with? Obviously from people Church shopping.

Then of course, there’s the issue of our “rights” again…

Where’s John Kennedy when I need him?

Darn rootin tootin right! I totally believe I have the right to travel to a different church so I don’t have to listen to a priest in a cowboy hat play with a puppet during the homily.

Call it what you like. If I can’t kneel in peace with the Lord, I am moving to another church. I shouldn’t have to be confronted with inane, ridiculous attempts to water down my faith every Sunday.

Of course, what with my recent work schedule, I’ve attended the one nearest work and not my registered parish. I can’t decide if the Mass resembles a rock concert or a Baptist renewal ceremony. If you squint really hard and look to the right, you can almost see a Marian statue. At least that’s a plus.

 

[rayne89]

But, do you really do your children service within the faith, when you teach them that if you don’t like this priest, just head on over to another parish? Does that not sow the seeds of Protestantism?

Oh I don’t know is singing a song about Jesus as a “she” acceptable? Or how 'bout a homily about how feeling guilty for our sins is not good for our psycho-spiritual developement or another homily which the priest spent the entire time railing about “some lassie” (as in parish member) who had the gall to kneel for communion. Or having preschoolers consume unconsecrated hosts as part of a church tour during catechism. My daughter comes running up to me “Mommy, mommy I had communion today.” How 'bout having a lay youth group minister give the homily using rap star Eminem and his music as a part of improving our spirituality. Or the parish nun give homilies regularly dressed in a chasuble. “Mommy there’s a girl priest today!” The list is much longer but I hope you see my point.

 

[Howard_Roark]

Packing up your moppets and taking them across town just creates division. If there are two parishes in the same town, and they are vastly different, how did they get that way to begin with? Obviously from people Church shopping.*

Obviously? Hardly. I’d say that’s 180 degrees off of true.

A bad priest who does not take his job seriously or (list any of 100 other ways he can mess up big time, up to and including the sexual ones) will drive orthodox people away for the sake of their families minds and souls.

Over time, the “other” parish will have more orthodox people…while the “wacky” parish only retains those who are

1.Wacky themselves
2.Too sleepy to notice

Same end condition, one parish is much better off, but it was the pastor who started it.

We are experiencing this in the town where I live, I’m getting to observe it happening. All of the other parishes are too far away to really encourage “shopping” (40 + miles) and the defectors are leaving only when they cannot bear the craziness any more.

Result - the parishes 40 and 60 miles away have picked up all of the most knowlegable teachers, also the largest-sized families, and some of the more traditinally-minded musicians.

I think you have the causes and effects mixed up a bit.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

OK, but consider your thesis: “As long as a bishop does not require them, Catholics are not doing anything wrong when they register at the parish of their choice.”
I don’t understand. I did not say they couldn’t do anything wrong, period, if the bishop does not have geographic boundaries or does not enforce them. I said they did not violete canon law. “Wrong” was a bad choice of words.
…

For instance, the world is full of people we might marry without violating canon law or the marriage requirements in our diocese. That doesn’t mean that we can’t sin by choosing to marry someone that canon law allows us to marry. We are bound to practice discernment in our choices. Yes, of course there should be discernment. I didn’t say everybody should higgdle-dee-piggle-dee change parishes all over the diocese with the verve of children at a party playing Musical Chairs, for goodness sake! Of course they should pray over it and make sure it’s a good fit and for goodness sake, stay put for more than a few years.

Again, I don’t mean to imply that you would say otherwise. By my reading, you are only saying that one does not sin simply by having chosen a parish other than one’s geographical parish. IMHO, that point is absolutely correct!

 

[Howard_Roark]

BTW, Ethelzguy, we all know that you have no limit to the level of abuses you will accept from your pastor…but reconsider your own situation: We discussed in the other (now sadly departed) thread about your pastor teaching the acceptability of pouring the Sacred Blood down the Sacrarium sink, an act which we demonstrated from Church teaching would result in him being excommunicated. Of course he may (probably? almost certainly since he was cavalier about it? I think so) have done this in the past.

If you are willing to stick with a priest who is likely excommunicated (meaning he cannot even validly absolve you in confession) than yes, I’m sure you are against Church shopping.

The rest of us may not have a reason to abandon our parishes (a valid topic of discussion) but YOU certainly do! You deserve to at least know that the man you confess to has valid faculties to absolve you. Right now, I don’t see how you can have any certainty of that at all. And, I don’t think it can be termed “shopping” if you have to seek another Pastor just to be absolved.

Sometimes, you have to do what you have to do.

 

[ethelzguy]

If you are willing to stick with a priest who is likely excommunicated (meaning he cannot even validly absolve you in confession) than yes, I’m sure you are against Church shopping.

Howard, the fact that your thread was pulled speaks for itself. You trying to get this one pulled too? “Poof”

 

[ethelzguy]

Oh I don’t know is singing a song about Jesus as a “she” acceptable? Or how 'bout a homily about how feeling guilty for our sins is not good for our psycho-spiritual developement or another homily which the priest spent the entire time railing about “some lassie” (as in parish member) who had the gall to kneel for communion. Or having preschoolers consume unconsecrated hosts as part of a church tour during catechism. My daughter comes running up to me “Mommy, mommy I had communion today.” How 'bout having a lay youth group minister give the homily using rap star Eminem and his music as a part of improving our spirituality. Or the parish nun give homilies regularly dressed in a chasuble. “Mommy there’s a girl priest today!” The list is much longer but I hope you see my point.

Is this all stuff that happened in your Church on a given Sunday? Or a compilation of things trying to exaggerate a point?

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Bingo

Isn’t that what ‘Church Shoppping’ is all about? Looking for a Church or Priest who “does things the way I think they should be done, in accordance with MY interpretation of Church documents”? No. And I will tell you why. And others have already told you why.

The laity are entitled to have a reverent Mass according to GIRM. If a priest will not obey his bishop, and his bishop can’t make him do what is necessary, then canon law gives these people an out.

You’re better than canon law? A priest is better than his bosses and doesn’t have to follow the rules, yet the faithful are expected to sit there Mass after Mass and put up with this?

Example: There is a parish in a large city that shall be nameless for CAF rules. The pastor does not practice the rubrics as he is supposed to do. He allows a form of worship that is without order. He allows non-Catholic ministers in his pulpit. He allows women at the altar as nondeacon “deacons”. He alienates a particular race from the pews, because he feels another race is entitled over the first race. He preaches over two hours on tolerance of things that are immoral. He does not even call the Mass “Mass” but “services”. There is no adoration, no rosary, no daily Mass. Just the weekend “services” on Saturday evening and Sunday morning.

There are members of the first race who go to another parish. They have tried to change things. Their bishop wrings his hands. The people of the other race and the pastor will not allow these folks any leadership position or even a voice.

So, they might live in that geographic boundary, but the people fo the first race go to other parishes, taking public transportation, their own cars, or what have you to get where they are going.

 

[ethelzguy]

Darn rootin tootin right! I totally believe I have the right to travel to a different church so I don’t have to listen to…

Ah, the seeds of Protestantism…“I have the right to travel to a different church so I don’t have to listen to…”

The Church is not a Democracy.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Ah, the seeds of Protestantism…“I have the right to travel to a different church so I don’t have to listen to…”

The Church is not a Democracy.

***But the Church allows for travel to a different parish (not church) in canon 1248. * **